In lore and literature that's usually a shamanic gig.really is pretty hard to make up the gaping wound that wildshape left.Well...if you take limited wildshape off the table :)
I still like my Warg idea even if no one else did.
Being able to enter and take over your animal companion, and eventually other animals...come one, that is cool.
What about an ability that allows you to essentially scry through the companion? To me, that's Beastmaster (Starring Marc Singer) territory.
It's the compromise I went with in my take on the hunter.
In lore and literature that's usually a shamanic gig.really is pretty hard to make up the gaping wound that wildshape left.Well...if you take limited wildshape off the table :)
I still like my Warg idea even if no one else did.
Being able to enter and take over your animal companion, and eventually other animals...come one, that is cool.
What about an ability that allows you to essentially scry through the companion? To me, that's Beastmaster (Starring Marc Singer) territory.
It's the compromise I went with in my take on the hunter.
*Grudgingly grunts acceptance*
I know I've already suggested this, but since there was no response, I'm just going to straight-up beg the designers...please, please make the Hunter a spontaneous caster? Again, no SC with the Druid list currently exists. It would be awesome. The ability to cast spells on the fly makes for such great combat potential.
Of the current casting classes in Pathfinder, 7 are prepared casters, and 5 are spontaneous. In this class book, we have 4 more prepared casters, and 2 spontaneous. This list leaves out the Alchemist and Arcanist, which I'm filing under "other". But that's 11/7 in favor of prepared now. It would be nice to see one more SC, and honestly, it's the only thing that would make me want to play a Hunter.
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Just playing the devils advocate here ladywurm, but pearls of power are far cheaper than runestones of power, which makes it pretty easy to replenish combat spells while retaining some of the flexibility of preparation.
I think the danger of making the Hunter spontaneous is that it would make a class designed to fight in tandem with their companion into a class that casts spells in combat.
See, prepared casting is far friendlier to utility, non-combat situations, and the Druid list is especially well suited to that kind of strategy. They can just buff up and ignore spells otherwise during a fight (which also allows them not to prioritize Wisdom so much and focus instead on fighting stats). Spontaneous casting, though, is notoriously poor when it comes to utility and non-combat magic, but generally is more flexible during open combat.
I'm not sure the hunter should really be throwing Entangles and Calling Lightning rather than shooting a bow or swinging a scythe.
There already is an Improved Shared Spells feat, but it does not work that well for flanking pets as the effect stops if they go further than 5 feet from you. Also the Spellcraft 10 ranks requisite is pretty hard.
Making it an ability special to the Hunter would be great. Doubly so with an archetype that would allow you to share your pet's natural attacks.
As a note: that is no problem if you are using your animal companion as a mount.
I think the danger of making the Hunter spontaneous is that it would make a class designed to fight in tandem with their companion into a class that casts spells in combat.
See, prepared casting is far friendlier to utility, non-combat situations, and the Druid list is especially well suited to that kind of strategy. They can just buff up and ignore spells otherwise during a fight (which also allows them not to prioritize Wisdom so much and focus instead on fighting stats). Spontaneous casting, though, is notoriously poor when it comes to utility and non-combat magic, but generally is more flexible during open combat.
I'm not sure the hunter should really be throwing Entangles and Calling Lightning rather than shooting a bow or swinging a scythe.
Pssssssst. I suggested this for the Warpriest earlier but I will do it here too:
Give the Hunter Arcanist-like casting.
I think the danger of making the Hunter spontaneous is that it would make a class designed to fight in tandem with their companion into a class that casts spells in combat.
See, prepared casting is far friendlier to utility, non-combat situations, and the Druid list is especially well suited to that kind of strategy. They can just buff up and ignore spells otherwise during a fight (which also allows them not to prioritize Wisdom so much and focus instead on fighting stats). Spontaneous casting, though, is notoriously poor when it comes to utility and non-combat magic, but generally is more flexible during open combat.
I'm not sure the hunter should really be throwing Entangles and Calling Lightning rather than shooting a bow or swinging a scythe.
A class that has both a partial combat ability and a 6th-level casting ability is meant to do both equally well. Otherwise it would just be a Ranger, and we already have that.
New proposed ability:
Hunter's Weapon Training (Ex): Hunters train hard with their tools, learning how to better strike down their quarry. At 1st level, choose one ranged weapon and one melee weapon that this class grants proficiency in. You gain a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls with those two weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, and finally +4 at 14th level, which is the maximum.
Why are we giving a ranger-druid class a fighter ability again?
To make the Hunter more viable as a hunter. Unlike the Bard, this is not a class meant to hang back and buff the party. The Hunter, well...hunts. They and their animal companion attack stuff first and then use spells to supplement combat and provide healing and nature effects. The problem is that the Hunter at current isn't particularly good or interesting at fighting or casting, which is the whole problem.
He needs some kind of specific buff to both that keeps the theme.
Also, if you don't work something else into the mix, these classes will be boring and useless. You need one or two new abilities to make the hybrid not only more viable, but also more unique.
I understand the hunter needs help. What I don't understand is why half the solutions are salvaging class features from classes not related to the hunter. If anything salvage more from the ranger or give it a new ability. Giving it grit or weapon training makes a boring quick solution for a class that also needs help feeling like a class and not an archetype.
Hmmm, yeah, I would rather see a Combat Style than Weapon Training.
What could be very cool is if the Companion got a combat style actually... since prerequisites can be rough for a companion, it would be nice to see combat styles that enabled Grapple, Trip, Disarm etc... feats that either have improved unarmed strike or combat expertise as prerequisites.
I play-tested a Hunter a bit over a week ago in PFS (in the Confirmation) and hadn’t yet had a chance to write-up any sort of good feedback on it yet.
Overall, I found it a bit underwhelming for many of the reasons listed up thread.
I do want to address and brainstorm a bit on the stated goal of the Hunter (or at least paraphrased what I recall from Jason B. saying at D*Con) – this is the class that is the best class for fighting with an animal companion.
I think that the teamwork feats thing is a good start and mechanically appropriate given what we have, but makes the class very similar to one of the inquisitor niches, which I think it would do well to expand on a bit more. (I’ll skip the weirdness of armor & shield thing as the devs have already said this is something they are looking at.)
The first main weakness I would address is the lack of ranged combat utility for what is would be a thematically appropriate strength (which I think the devs have already said is something they are looking into). I would like to see the AC and not count as cover / concealment or as “in melee” for ranged attacks from the hunter. I think it would also be interesting for the AC to be able to extend this ability at higher levels to be able to provide a similar benefit for allies who are adjacent to it (effectively “herding” the target into ranged attacks). This would give the Hunter a bit of a niche and some Feat-related benefits (Precise Shot, etc.) that are still limited to use with their companion. Mechanics-wise, I would probably take the ranged attack verbiage from the Divine Hunter and modify to reflect the AC.
I would love to see some additional mechanics that allow the AC & the Hunter to use Aid Another actions more efficiently as well – especially in non-standard ways. There is some precedent amongst archtypes, orders, etc. to allow aid another to do something other than the static AC or to-hit melee bonus. Stacked with my recommendation above, I would like to see the Hunter to be able to used a ranged attack to aid another the AC who is in melee or benefit from the AC giving an Aid Another action to move the target and give the Hunter a bonus on a ranged attack. I think that both should be able to give Aid Another actions faster than a standard action as they gain levels as well. Thematically, I could see adding Bodyguard, In Harms Way, etc. to the teamwork bonus feat options as well.
(If we can go waaaay outside of the box on Aid Another bonuses, I would like to see something that allows the AC or Hunter to aid another as part of an attack action and take a penalty to hit, damage, or deal half damage ala Shield of Swings feat, but I think that may be a bit too efficient for action economy in a class that already has the potential to dominate actions).
The lack of Ranger spells also hurts the class. I know that there is a Ranger Archtype (Nirmathi Irregular, I believe) that has the ability to gain a druid spell. I would like to see something similar for the Hunters to gain Ranger spells, even if in a limited manner (perhaps the ability to use their bonus spell slots on Ranger or Druid spells, or to choose one spell per level from the Ranger list to add to their repertoire, or to be able to memorize at one level higher?)
Finally, I would address the Animal Focus ability. As written, I frankly completely forgot to use it when I should have, so can’t comment much on its utility. Because I knew I would only get it for a minute, I basically wrote it off for most of the adventure and only remembered it when “mopping up” on rather low risk opponents. Because of this, I would like to see something a bit more akin to the abilities that can be broken up throughout the day.
I’m hoping to play-test at a higher level before the open play-test wraps - unfortunately the disadvantage of play-testing through PFS means that almost all of the feedback is for very low level characters.
-TimD
I understand the hunter needs help. What I don't understand is why half the solutions are salvaging class features from classes not related to the hunter. If anything salvage more from the ranger or give it a new ability.
Well...maybe these Hunter-specific teamwork feats might help with that. I would like to see something that gives the Hunter a combat bonus if they snipe with a bow from stealth while their animal companion engages the target for distraction, or something that gives them bonus damage while flanking with their companion in melee, or something that makes both of them better at pursuit (animal parkour?).
In the end, as long as the Hunter is better at hunting than it is now, and feels a little more useful as a caster, I'll be happy.
The first main weakness I would address is the lack of ranged combat utility for what is would be a thematically appropriate strength (which I think the devs have already said is something they are looking into). I would like to see the AC and not count as cover / concealment or as “in melee” for ranged attacks from the hunter. I think it would also be interesting for the AC to be able to extend this ability at higher levels to be able to provide a similar benefit for allies who are adjacent to it (effectively “herding” the target into ranged attacks). This would give the Hunter a bit of a niche and some Feat-related benefits (Precise Shot, etc.) that are still limited to use with their companion. Mechanics-wise, I would probably take the ranged attack verbiage from the Divine Hunter and modify to reflect the AC.
The Hunter being specially skilled with a bow, and especially in tandem with their AC, should be a given. That's practically the class title, and certainly the first thing I thought of.
Lead Designer
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In anticipation of a revised version of the playtest document going live, this thread is locked. A new thread will be created to discuss the revised version of the class. Please refrain from carrying over existing discussions to the new thread to avoid confusion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer