Is Destroying a Fellow Player's Raised Dead / Commanded Undead an action that Constitutes PVP in Society Play?


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Thomas Graham wrote:


And where does that line exactly being.

Like art; it's hard to describe, but we know it when we see it.

Grand Lodge 1/5

This is all very nice but you are now attempting to twist rules into forcing people not to RP their PCs.

If you are a Devil summoner and my PC escaped slavery after almost being sacrificed to a Devil, he is not going to help your PC. I don't care what you call me the Player.

That's like expecting an ex-slave to heal a slave-catcher. Or a survivor of a caravan massacre to aid a professional bandit. You mule pesh for the Sczarni be careful that none of your fellow Pathfinders aren't orphans who lost their parents in a pesh turf war.

You want to play a PC who plays fast and loose with the laws and personal morality, then you take your chances. That's Role-Playing. You want to Roll-Play I'm cool with that but don't expect the same from people around you.

And if I'm playing a Sczarni thug, I'm generally going to look out for myself and not expect the local law enforcement Paladin or Priest of Abadar, to be my healer.

Certainly, none of the Priests or Paladins, of Pharasma, Iomeade or Sarenrae are hiding the fact that they serve their deities. You're a Pathfinder, being observant and aware of your circumstances is part of the job description. Knowing who is around you and how they will most likely react to certain actions, should be a well honed sixth sense.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Shifty wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:


And where does that line exactly being.
Like art; it's hard to describe, but we know it when we see it.

Funny from what I've seen in this discussion it seems the don't be a jerk is solely on the Pali/cleric side of the line.

I understand role playing can cost you funds, pp and other things. I have had to kill a player because of his RPing his guys 'bored now' attitude. To date the player has cost me around 7k in coin and 2k in consumables. Some of that could have been avoid, as could my nearly killing him, then having to let him die to save the rest if the party.

My issue is that depending on your GM, my cleric and some Paladins would have to pay 2,500 gp in atonement. Not a small sum in PFS play.

Dark Archive

We're talking Out of Character "being a jerk" here. Remember, the guide explicitly stats that "it's what my character would do" is not an excuse to be a jerk.

Deliberately letting a PC die when you could have saved them, because you disagree with a choice they made in character, is not cool.

I like how you are considering the decision to not save another character from death as just typical RPing for your character. A necromancer's choice to raise a zombie doesn't mean your character dies.

The obligation your character has, in character, to save said bleeding to death necromancer, is your mandate from the Pathfinder Society to Co-Operate. If your character can not be grown up enough to do this, despite disagreeing with what fellow pathfinder might do sometime, then your character has no business being in the Pathfinder Society. Deliberately making a character that is opposed to the main goals of the campaign is being deliberately disruptive to the campaign, so don't be surprised if no one wants you to be at their table.

And if you can't seperate in character and out of character enough to not be such a jerk out of character because you feel self-righteous in character, then you really should find another game to play.

Again, the guide to organized play explicitly not one discourages this kind of play, but actually declare it to be against the rules.

Eric Saxon wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:
Refusing to heal a fellow party member could jeopardize the success of the pathfinder mission. No one says you have to bless the necromancer, but refusing to heal him when he's bleeding to death because he's risking danger at your side would be a jerk move, in my opinion.

But him raising undead, knowing I'm a cleric of Pharasma would not be considered a 'jerk move?' So, only necromancers get to RP their PC but the rest of us don't get to, because you've decided that we have to serve their RP needs and not our own?

So, your definition of fair is that the Paladins and Priests of Good Deities have to heal and help PCs who show nothing but contempt for their religions? And that makes it a good RP experience for whom?

I'm sorry but if you are bleeding to death and are a necromancer who raised dead 2 minutes ago, you are going to bleed out. Because a Priest or a Paladin of those Deities has ZERO obligation to save you. It might actually put his soul and his allegiance to his god at risk to aid said Necromancer.

That's the difference between Roll Playing and Role Playing, IMO. You want to play a Necromancer, you do so at your own risk with the full knowledge that half the people who meet your PC will not lift a finger to aid him, if he gets in trouble.

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Thomas Graham wrote:
My issue is that depending on your GM, my cleric and some Paladins would have to pay 2,500 gp in atonement. Not a small sum in PFS play.

Which is a non-issue. The minute you event suspect there could be an issue you can simply get peace of mind by asking the GM. The GM will immediately provide you the feedback you need in order to inform your conversation.

This stuff is pretty simple - no need to lose any sleep over it.

You didn't HAVE to kill that guy, you chose to, and the cost of that choice was apparently 7k in consumables. I would point out that it is your choice to play with the guy in the first place.

There is no bias to pali/cleric sides of any lines here, the only bias is against jerk players.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Shifty wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
My issue is that depending on your GM, my cleric and some Paladins would have to pay 2,500 gp in atonement. Not a small sum in PFS play.

Which is a non-issue. The minute you event suspect there could be an issue you can simply get peace of mind by asking the GM. The GM will immediately provide you the feedback you need in order to inform your conversation.

This stuff is pretty simple - no need to lose any sleep over it.

You didn't HAVE to kill that guy, you chose to, and the cost of that choice was apparently 7k in consumables. I would point out that it is your choice to play with the guy in the first place.

There is no bias to pali/cleric sides of any lines here, the only bias is against jerk players.

You're assuming a GM won't make a ruling after the fact there. Which I have seen.

I didn't kill him I had ONE action. I could cast a daylight spell, or stabilize Cantrip. Not both. One was going to let the player die. I had 2 players who would not survive another hit. Each had less than a handful of points, one was in the negatives but stable and between the clerics we had maybe 3 channels. So the scenario was done. Mission fail. So was I supposed to save him and have the rest of the group die after I got nail with a nasty shadow evocation?

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Eric Saxon wrote:

This is all very nice but you are now attempting to twist rules into forcing people not to RP their PCs.

If you are a Devil summoner and my PC escaped slavery after almost being sacrificed to a Devil, he is not going to help your PC. I don't care what you call me the Player.

But that's exactly my point. YOU are not your player character.

Your PC doesn't have to heal anyone they don't want to.

YOU as a PLAYER should be interested in talking with the other actual people at the table to make sure you are all having a fun, successful game and are role-playing a fun story. That's a huge difference.

"Hey everyone, my character isn't going to heal this necromancer ever and I plan to be rude to him at every moment because that's how my paladin works. Can we make sure we have a secondary plan to heal him just in case he happens to drop? It's nothing personal, just how this particular character works. Let's make sure we have our healing and stuff worked out before we get this game started so no one dies."

That's a quick conversation that solves this entire problem.

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Thomas Graham wrote:


You're assuming a GM won't make a ruling after the fact there. Which I have seen.

Yes I generally assume that my GM is honest and playing fairly, and that if I ask a question and am given an answer that I base my decisions upon that the GM wont pull a stunt.

I also take some personal repsonsibility in asking questions when I believe there could be a grey area, to ensure no hidden surprises at the end - surprises for myself or my fellows.

You seem to be wrapped around the axles about some particular line ball incident wheich (in the way you paint it) you were hard done by. Of course the GM might tell us a whole different story (for all we know you looked at the downed guy first and said 'suffer in your jocks, champ' - we don't know) but if you were hard done by, it's a salient reminder that along with jerk players there can also be jerk GM's.

Ask questions, get answers, don't play with jerks.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Arkos wrote:
That's a quick conversation that solves this entire problem.

And that's my first post, if you go back one page, my suggestion was to go buy the necro player a soda or a cookie, and tell him that your PC and his are not going to get along and he should expect zero help from that particular PC.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Shifty wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:


You're assuming a GM won't make a ruling after the fact there. Which I have seen.

Yes I generally assume that my GM is honest and playing fairly, and that if I ask a question and am given an answer that I base my decisions upon that the GM wont pull a stunt.

I also take some personal repsonsibility in asking questions when I believe there could be a grey area, to ensure no hidden surprises at the end - surprises for myself or my fellows.

You seem to be wrapped around the axles about some particular line ball incident wheich (in the way you paint it) you were hard done by. Of course the GM might tell us a whole different story (for all we know you looked at the downed guy first and said 'suffer in your jocks, champ' - we don't know) but if you were hard done by, it's a salient reminder that along with jerk players there can also be jerk GM's.

Ask questions, get answers, don't play with jerks.

1. I apologized to him. Said I was sorry but I couldn't save him AND the party

2. This entire thread reinforces my decision. My cleric won't play with undead summoners. Prevents issues right off the bat. My Bard/Cleric will, my Inquistor will but I enjoy role playing my cleric too much to NOT RP every one of the 6 or so scenarios I have left till 12th. I can't RP with a necro without the conflict, so I sit out and conflict is avoided.

It's my problem, not his. So I won't make it his

Dark Archive 4/5

Eric Saxon wrote:
Arkos wrote:
That's a quick conversation that solves this entire problem.
And that's my first post, if you go back one page, my suggestion was to go buy the necro player a soda or a cookie, and tell him that your PC and his are not going to get along and he should expect zero help from that particular PC.

And that's the point someone decides not to play, and may not come back, because they don't feel welcome. It feels like a band-aid when stitches are needed. Besmara forbid you do this to a new player.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."

Problem solved.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Dresden10589 wrote:
And that's the point someone decides not to play, and may not come back, because they don't feel welcome. It feels like a band-aid when stitches are needed. Besmara forbid you do this to a new player.

New players generally pick up pre-gens or something less exotic. At least that's been my general experience. Guys who pick up a necro build aren't your average new kids on the block. Usually they are guys who have 6 or 7 PCs and they know they are intentionally stepping on toes.

You ever meet a lvl. 1 necro player who's never played a PFS scenario before?

Yeah, me neither. ;)

Dark Archive 4/5

I run a around 4 different clerics in PFS (Desna, Iomedae, Shizuru, and Abadar) and I would never refuse to heal an ally based on their characters actions because in the end the difference between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" is that we work together and they fight amongst themselves, if we lose that advantage you are dooming yourselves to fail.

I also find this passive aggressive I wont do X for that PC because my alignment/race/religion/RP reasons to be silly and childish this hobby is supposed to be about having nice relaxing fun with chill people.

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"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem. If so, can we talk about how we can manage this co-operatively?"

A better solution

Dark Archive 2/5

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Eric Saxon wrote:
Dresden10589 wrote:
And that's the point someone decides not to play, and may not come back, because they don't feel welcome. It feels like a band-aid when stitches are needed. Besmara forbid you do this to a new player.

New players generally pick up pre-gens or something less exotic. At least that's been my general experience. Guys who pick up a necro build aren't your average new kids on the block. Usually they are guys who have 6 or 7 PCs and they know they are intentionally stepping on toes.

You ever meet a lvl. 1 necro player who's never played a PFS scenario before?

Yeah, me neither. ;)

I actually have, though to be fair you aren't really a necromancer at level 1. You could be a wizard necromancer type or what have you, but you can't animate the dead yet. And on another note, don't you think it's a little unfair to say the necromancer is stepping on toes? There's lots of stuff in PFS that gets tolerated, and it seems as if the majority of its players are willing to cooperate to the fullest of their ability. Thus, I dare say necromancers are not stepping on toes just by using their magic.


I'd like to reinforce the notion that You are not Your Character. Your Character cannot be a jerk to My Character or vice versa, that's between You and I. All this "my imaginary character just can't get along with yours" crap has to be set aside, because PFS with it's very nature of inclusion and random groupings MUST circumvent such stipulations.

There should be no repercussions for paladins/clerics aiding necromancer PCs unless it is equally enforced when they aid diabolists, or commit crimes in the name of the Society for that matter.

I don't want to see this stupid argument end up with the banning of necromancers or Pharasman clerics, but some sort of Society edict should be issued to enforce fair play when these types of characters do interact.

Oh, wait, they pretty much DID say something like that already...

PCs must cooperate in PFS. That's the whole point. Cut the crap and play like adults (huh? lol)

Silver Crusade 3/5

The Beard wrote:
Eric Saxon wrote:
Dresden10589 wrote:
And that's the point someone decides not to play, and may not come back, because they don't feel welcome. It feels like a band-aid when stitches are needed. Besmara forbid you do this to a new player.

New players generally pick up pre-gens or something less exotic. At least that's been my general experience. Guys who pick up a necro build aren't your average new kids on the block. Usually they are guys who have 6 or 7 PCs and they know they are intentionally stepping on toes.

You ever meet a lvl. 1 necro player who's never played a PFS scenario before?

Yeah, me neither. ;)

I actually have, though to be fair you aren't really a necromancer at level 1. You could be a wizard necromancer type or what have you, but you can't animate the dead yet. And on another note, don't you think it's a little unfair to say the necromancer is stepping on toes? There's lots of stuff in PFS that gets tolerated, and it seems as if the majority of its players are willing to cooperate to the fullest of their ability. Thus, I dare say necromancers are not stepping on toes just by using their magic.

Using Enervation? Fine. Raising undead? That causes problems.

I have at least 4 characters who would have serious problems with someone casually raising undead.

Any Paladin, any follower of Pharasma, Sarenrae, Iomodae, Torag, Desna, Shelyn or in fact any Good aligned god should have a problem with Animating Undead. It is an intrinsically evil spell that creates an intrinsically evil creature and effectively desecrates a corpse into the bargain.

There's your problem. Like it or not PFS allows Good and Neutral aligned characters only. So you are going to see a bias towards people whose morality and beliefs do not approve of this kind of thing. So you shouldn't be surprised if playing an undead raising necromancer ruffles a few feathers.

Other morally dubious stuff happens in PFS sure. But the problem is that Animating Dead is an obvious evil in front of your face. You could compare it to devil worship I suppose but devil worship is less obvious and less visceral. In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction. Also most of the players I have met who have full on Chelaxian PC's have the courtesy to check with the rest of the table that this is not going to cause issues.

The bottom line is that you can play a character that animates dead. That's fine. Be prepared to play something else if someone has an objection. You were the one who created a controversial character, you have the responsibility to make sure said character is not going to tread on other PC's.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Shifty wrote:

"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem. If so, can we talk about how we can manage this co-operatively?"

A better solution

Not for me.

You chose to make that character knowing that it may hack people off. Be prepared not to play it.

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FallofCamelot wrote:

You chose to make that character knowing that it may hack people off. Be prepared not to play it.

'People being hacked off' doesn't give them a moral high ground. I can't stand R&B and what passes for modern rap music, doesn't mean I can go next door to my neighbours and insist they go through their album collection to play something I prefer.

The necromancer (or any other combo) does not have to take a back seat because other players don't like it - there are a range of things you could bring to the table that really get my goat, but that would be my problem to deal with and suck up, not yours.

I don't like Dwarves, I am sick to death of the hackneyed alcoholic Scotsman trope, and if I see another Cleric of Cayden I am likely to go into apoplexy, my 'love' for CN similarly knows no bounds (sarcasm) but you know what? I would be mortified if someone told those players to play something else instead. My taste should not force what they get to play.

On the other hand, I might choose not to play with that player again in future (if they are a jerkhat).


There's no way I'd just opt out of my high level necromancer just because one guy's imaginary character couldn't handle it. I play my characters respectfully to other characters, but I also play what I enjoy. It's MY game too, y'know. If there were a table full of people whining about it, then I guess I'd not be playing- but the fault would be on the players that can't work it out, not any fictitious religious group or code on either side.

Thankfully I don't have this problem in my meta, and can continue commanding and animating undead as I see fit. If PFS ever DOES outlaw necromancers, we'll just quit Society play and carry on in modules.

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FallofCamelot wrote:

"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."

Problem solved.

Congratulations. You're a pathfinder.

You will be breaking the law.

You are probably going to kill people.

We gather knowledge. We don't slay the dragon, we don't save the damsel. That dragons seen a damn bit of history and I'd rather put its skull to use yacking about the lost secrets of the Jistka empire than decorating my wall.

That guy over there thats detecting as evil? Yeah, don't stick a sword in him. Thats the premiere expert on ancient thasalonian/native interactions in the inner sea. Your job is to get him to the dig-site, not re arrange his internal organs.

If you're ok with it, there's your wayfinder. If that's a problem, get out.

Dark Archive 2/5

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Haha... I wish that was the graduation day speech after Confirmation, BNF.

Dark Archive 2/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:

"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."

Problem solved.

Congratulations. You're a pathfinder.

You will be breaking the law.

You are probably going to kill people.

We gather knowledge. We don't slay the dragon, we don't save the damsel. That dragons seen a damn bit of history and I'd rather put its skull to use yacking about the lost secrets of the Jistka empire than decorating my wall.

That guy over there thats detecting as evil? Yeah, don't stick a sword in him. Thats the premiere expert on ancient thasalonian/native interactions in the inner sea. Your job is to get him to the dig-site, not re arrange his internal organs.

If you're ok with it, there's your wayfinder. If that's a problem, get out.

Annnddd this is the best way I've seen it summed up yet. Pathfinders are called on to do bad things, and pretty dang often at that. Oh, and one other thing? Say you're a paladin. The necromancer of the party has just been left on the brink of death. His minions remain completely under control due to being A.) mindless (and soulless); and B.) he hasn't died, so his magic is still in effect. You know they're going to go out of control if he dies. But more importantly, he fell in the line of duty, protecting the rest of the party from <insert threat here.> As a paladin, you choose to let someone not detecting as being of evil alignment die. There are no more threats. Combat is over, and the player opts to let them die anyway. Y'know what we call that? A blatantly and gruesomely evil act, and there are plenty of GMs that would penalize you for it if you chose to continue with that action after a warning.

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^^That is certainly the in-game argument^^

Goes well with the out of game argument too.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.

It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

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I think the key to getting along with the other players at your table isn't to take the "what would my character do" and then do that, but to say what MIGHT my character do and pick an option that takes into account the fact that whats really going on is that you're at a table with other PEOPLE that want to have fun playing a game.

The undead hater might

1) [Dr. Orpheus]SMITE THE UNDEAD AND HIS FOUL ABOMINATION WITH THE FIERY DIVINE WRATH OF THE GODS THEMSELVES!!![/Dr. Orpheous]

2) Harangue the evil doer for his ways in an attempt to convert him, and then let him die when he inevitably doesn't listen

3) Keep him alive, either because when he's alive there's still hope of redemption or just because the second he dies his undead monstrocities will try to eat the faces off of innocent people.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.
It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

I think you mistake Raise Dead and Animate dead with each other.

Yes, the Risen Guard are all RAISED from the dead. but they are returned to life and not undead. Whereas Animated dead are elements of Osirion's past.

Dark Archive 2/5

Meanwhile as some sects in Osirion remain unpunished for practicing necromancy. Anyway, the point isn't who condones what anymore. It's "how far can I go in undermining this person's character before the rest of the table looks at me like I stole something." That is pretty much the sort of back and forth that's been going on. People usually don't want to respect the right of a person to play a necromancer. If there are issues, they're normally out of character issues, or so it has often appeared. "Well my cleric won't heal you!" or "I want to kill your character, but the no PVP rule stops me!" These are things that undoubtedly are going to happen, but it doesn't make them right.

Grand Lodge 4/5

The Beard wrote:
Meanwhile as some sects in Osirion remain unpunished for practicing necromancy.

If the Chelliax FACTION isn't responsible for the actions of the country, neither should the Osirion FACTION be held accountable for practices within their own country. No more than an Andoran faction member is responsible for illicit acts in Andoran.

There is a difference between Faction and Country.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Thomas Graham wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.
It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

I think you mistake Raise Dead and Animate dead with each other.

Yes, the Risen Guard are all RAISED from the dead. but they are returned to life and not undead. Whereas Animated dead are elements of Osirion's past.

From one of their faction traits:

"You were raised to believe that undead are nothing to fear—they are simply the unliving remnants of your honored ancestors."

They might not actively practice it, but they're taught that it's not a big deal.

Oh, and the blurb about gaining fame with the Osirion faction in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide mentions that those with "...dominance over undead are particularly useful."

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.
It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

I think you mistake Raise Dead and Animate dead with each other.

Yes, the Risen Guard are all RAISED from the dead. but they are returned to life and not undead. Whereas Animated dead are elements of Osirion's past.

From one of their faction traits:

"You were raised to believe that undead are nothing to fear—they are simply the unliving remnants of your honored ancestors."

They might not actively practice it, but they're taught that it's not a big deal.

Oh, and the blurb about gaining fame with the Osirion faction in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide mentions that those with "...dominance over undead are particularly useful."

Of course my wizards idea of 'dominance' over Undead is Chain Lightning, admixtured into 'Chain Firebolts'. She also wonders about the Saphhire sage after a season of 'Get this','Drink this..and not die' and so on.

Scarab Sages 1/5

FallofCamelot wrote:
"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."

You're right. The necromancer player is always less important than other players and should not have as much right to play.

Jeff Merola wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.
It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

OUR necromancy is much better than THEIR necromancy though. Its really weird and not at all like the skeletal mounted litches you see in Ustalov. We even venerate Phrasama as a major deity.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Matthew Trent wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."
You're right. The necromancer player is always less important than other players and should not have as much right to play.

That was HIS take on how HE'D do it.

Just like mine was with MY cleric doing the SAME thing.

He was posting a PLAYER's decision on how HE would handle the issue. Don't make it every guys action.

Like I said earlier.

It's MY problem.. I don't have to play that PC and make it anyone elses. I got enough PCs that I can roleplay around that type of character.


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Thomas Graham wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:
In addition Devil worship is intrinsic to one of the factions whereas Necromancy is not intrinsic to any faction.
It is, actually. The Osirion Faction.

I think you mistake Raise Dead and Animate dead with each other.

Yes, the Risen Guard are all RAISED from the dead. but they are returned to life and not undead. Whereas Animated dead are elements of Osirion's past.

Risen Guards notwithstanding, there is a wealth of necromantic lore in Osirion: Threnodic and Thanatopic metamagic, spells like boneshatter, canopic conversion, tomb legion, and the fact that the legendary necromancer Geb is Osirani- see a cultural trend here? The trait Attuned to the Ancestors says it all:

Pathfinder Society: The Year of the Demon wrote:
Attuned to the Ancestors: You were raised to believe that undead are nothing to fear—they are simply the unliving remnants of your honored ancestors...

(Dammit, Jeff is a ninja...lol)

There. It's as canon as Chelaxian devil worship, and just as protected under the Rules.

Any necromancer, diabolist, cleric, or paladin that doesn't respect the authority of the Deciemverate that assembled your (random) group of Pathfinders and work together WOULD be fired. Cooperate or GTFO

Dark Archive 2/5

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When Baron Ulfhamr made his thread about blood magic a bit back, and we got into this exact same debate, someone also pointed out that there are scenarios in PFS where you discover that the society itself even has a necromancy lab. I'm not sure that's even a hidden fact, it may be mentioned in Seeker of Secrets. While I won't say the society necessarily condones necromancy, it's practical to have an understanding of it, and people in your employ that can do it, for this line of work. Undead are like the number 2 thing encountered in PFS, behind bad humans and ahead of evil outsiders. Having people around who understand how they work and can bend them to a better purpose is an excellent idea. More importantly, as a character who agreed to be a Pathfinder, that character should have allowances in his organizational view that he might sometimes be paired with a person like this. Likewise, the necromantic pathfinder is probably aware of the stigma against him in general, just like the diabolist pathfinder, and should be willing to compromise. That chosen compromise should not mean "if you fall I will leave you to die." That's bad for the society. It should be more like

"If you fall, I will expend the minimum time and resources to get you back on your feet You should know that before we go into the Tomb of Poisoned Darts."

"That's fine. I'll try to limit my offenses to your religion as much as I can to make sure we survive, but zombies make very good poison dart absorbers."

"I'm a rogue. I'm good at spotting traps and stuff. I'll try and make having a bunch of zombies unnecessary so you can have one really big cool zombie."

"My Vow of Poverty makes it so I don't have a lot of equipment, but I can buy some extra potions for the necromancer so he doesn't have to rely on the cleric for healing."

Cooperate, dag nabbit!

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:

"Hi guys before we start I'm playing a Necromancer that raises and utilises undead. Will that cause any problems for anyone round the table? I have an alternate character if it's a problem."

Problem solved.

Congratulations. You're a pathfinder.

You will be breaking the law.

You are probably going to kill people.

We gather knowledge. We don't slay the dragon, we don't save the damsel. That dragons seen a damn bit of history and I'd rather put its skull to use yacking about the lost secrets of the Jistka empire than decorating my wall.

That guy over there thats detecting as evil? Yeah, don't stick a sword in him. Thats the premiere expert on ancient thasalonian/native interactions in the inner sea. Your job is to get him to the dig-site, not re arrange his internal organs.

If you're ok with it, there's your wayfinder. If that's a problem, get out.

I don't know. Thus far I've always managed to rescue the damsel, even when it's not the actual mission. You don't have to slay the dragon to do that...that's what Diplomacy is for.

5/5 5/55/55/5

pH unbalanced wrote:


I don't know. Thus far I've always managed to rescue the damsel, even when it's not the actual mission. You don't have to slay the dragon to do that...that's what Diplomacy is for.

and that's how you get a secondary objective.

SECONDARY. Your primary objective is the knowledge or macguffin.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Often enough as not, thats clearly not true though.

Penumbral Accords

Spoiler:
has you rescue the twins and the secondary is to destroy the macguffin. Stolen Heir has a similar idea, but turns out different.

5/5 5/55/55/5

DM Beckett wrote:

Often enough as not, thats clearly not true though.

Penumbral Accords ** spoiler omitted **

Its kind of making my point where you can achieve the mission by

Spoiler:
effectively aiding and abetting the kidnapping and slavery of an innocent debutante so her dad can stay in an election fixing racket.

Dresden10589 wrote:
Eric Saxon wrote:
Arkos wrote:
That's a quick conversation that solves this entire problem.
And that's my first post, if you go back one page, my suggestion was to go buy the necro player a soda or a cookie, and tell him that your PC and his are not going to get along and he should expect zero help from that particular PC.
And that's the point someone decides not to play, and may not come back, because they don't feel welcome. It feels like a band-aid when stitches are needed. Besmara forbid you do this to a new player.

As a rather new Society player myself, this entire thread makes me certain that I'm going to stick with morally neutral characters since our organization that apparently doesn't allow evil members has no problem with its "neutral" members committing evil acts and having an in-character problem with it would make *me* the disruptive player.

What exactly is it that is supposed to separate the Pathfinders from the Aspis?

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DM Beckett wrote:

Often enough as not, thats clearly not true though.

Penumbral Accords ** spoiler omitted **

Errr.

spoiler:
You mean the one where you cross over into another plane, gut a bunch of people who weren't doing anything to you, and help the Blackros family break a long standing contract because they don't like it any more? Doesn't seem very 'legit' to me.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

ZanThrax wrote:


As a rather new Society player myself, this entire thread makes me certain that I'm going to stick with morally neutral characters since our organization that apparently doesn't allow evil members has no problem with its "neutral" members committing evil acts and having an in-character problem with it would make *me* the disruptive player.

Neutrals seem to have it the easiest a lot of the time, sure, but evil acts are still evil acts and that can lead to losing your character - it looks simple, but its just a different tightrope to walk. The only way to be sure of how things are going to pan out is to talk to the fellow players at the table - we get people playing 'scumbags' at the same table as Paladins without problem because we sort out the way things need to go as players BEFORE kick-off.

Talk to your fellow players.

This cannot be stressed enough - don't start getting defeated by what might or might not happen or worry about playing a good guy or a necromancer because someone MIGHT have an issue - just talk it out.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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ZanThrax wrote:


What exactly is it that is supposed to separate the Pathfinders from the Aspis?

We MIGHT not douse the damsel in BBQ sauce and offer them to the dragon on a platter.

Might.

When faced with a delicate political situation the Pathfinders would prefer to get in, get the artifact, and get out. The aspis would rather get in, escalate tensions to the point of war, sell weapons to both sides, and then frame the pathfinders.

I think the difference is a bellcurve of morality. While there's more overlap than the pathfinders would like to admit, its still substantially higher on the pathfinder side... not that that says much. The pathfinder society isn't GOOD but it certainly is BETTER... that says more about the aspis than the pathfinders. Read up on the dutch east india company... and then give them MORE power.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5

The 'might' part depends on whether the dragon has Thassilonian artifacts to trade. In the grand scheme, what is one less vapid debutante vs the acquisition of knowledge and advancement of civilisation?

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ZanThrax wrote:
What exactly is it that is supposed to separate the Pathfinders from the Aspis?

The signature on the paycheck.

Grand Lodge 1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ZanThrax wrote:
As a rather new Society player myself, this entire thread makes me certain that I'm going to stick with morally neutral characters since our organization that apparently doesn't allow evil members has no problem with its "neutral" members committing evil acts and having an in-character problem with it would make *me* the disruptive player.

Honestly, I don’t know. When they say you can play a necromancer, what they are essentially saying is that you can play the guy who ‘dug up your grandma’s bones and then stitched them together with arcane power to make her fight to the death on his behalf.’

No one has ever quite explained how doing that, isn’t an act that would automatically turn you into an evil monster.

Heck, maybe it wasn’t grandma’s bones, maybe it was a child who died in a logging accident a month ago, or a father who died defending his family from a goblin raid, or maybe just their pet, Fido. How turning any of those people into your personal, shambling bone and meat shields never seemed like something that wouldn’t automatically turn you evil. But hey, maybe I’m just not open minded enough. And we’re not even getting into the desecration of the personal dignity of the remains of the deceased. Heck, I'm sure some the folks on this board would consider it 'neutral' behavior if it was their loved one, who was used in such a manner.

I’m just glad that my Priest of Pharasma isn’t troubled about such things, he's more of the, “How do you want to do this? One in the head or one in the heart?” kind of guy. He seems to get it, much more than me, and he's not exactly interested in an intellectual debate with necromancers, unless there is a resolution that ends with said necromancer, meeting Pharasma's justice.

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/55/55/5

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
What exactly is it that is supposed to separate the Pathfinders from the Aspis?
The signature on the paycheck.

I see Torch is writing left handed this week...


Are we really doing this all again, Mr. Saxon?

Eric Saxon wrote:

Honestly, I don’t know. When they say you can play a necromancer, what they are essentially saying is that you can play the guy who ‘dug up your grandma’s bones and then stitched them together with arcane power to make her fight to the death on his behalf.’

No one has ever quite explained how doing that, isn’t an act that would automatically turn you into an evil monster.

Heck, maybe it wasn’t grandma’s bones, maybe it was a child who died in a logging accident a month ago, or a father who died defending his family from a goblin raid, or maybe just their pet, Fido. How turning any of those people into your personal, shambling bone and meat shields never seemed like something that wouldn’t automatically turn you evil. But hey, maybe I’m just not open minded enough. And we’re not even getting into the desecration of the personal dignity of the remains of the deceased. Heck, I'm sure some the folks on this board would consider it 'neutral' behavior if it was their loved one, who was used in such a manner.

How about if said necromancer resurrected his own horses/dogs/whatever who were slain in combat? Or the evil monsters the party just killed (whose soul, if any, were Abyss/Hell-bound anyway)? Or seizing control of the evil dead already chewing the party up and turning them against one another?

Dredging the local graveyard for minions is a horribly evil act, as well as a horribly ineffective one. Do you know what an inferior minion one gains from human (and commoner, at that) corpses as opposed to monsters with natural hit dice, high ability scores, and natural attacks? It's not worth the trouble of digging them up, and with the endless supply of corpses supplied in the Pathfinders' wake, I don't even pack a shovel.

Eric Saxon wrote:


I’m just glad that my Priest of Pharasma isn’t troubled about such things, he's more of the, “How do you want to do this? One in the head or one in the heart?” kind of guy. He seems to get it, much more than me, and he's not exactly interested in an intellectual debate with necromancers, unless there is a resolution that ends with said necromancer, meeting Pharasma's justice.

You immediately jump to the worst case example for stereotypically vile necromancers, while exemplifying the worst case example for stereotypically intolerant priests.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:


I don't know. Thus far I've always managed to rescue the damsel, even when it's not the actual mission. You don't have to slay the dragon to do that...that's what Diplomacy is for.

and that's how you get a secondary objective.

SECONDARY. Your primary objective is the knowledge or macguffin.

Yes, but my characters are generally playing to win big. Fame, fortune, integrity intact, everyone gets home alive, and the heroine gets the girl. Sometimes you fall short, but you have to at least try to have it all.

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