Players plan to assault Thistletop by sea.

[Shiftybob]

Long story short: I've merged the two campaigns I've been running, so some of my Skull and Shackles players are now playing in my Rise of the Runelords game. The interesting thing is they've brought their pirate ship with them. The players have been running around in Magnimar for a while, distracted by a lot of side questing, so are now a bit higher level than expected for the attack on Thistletop. The party is currently roughly half 3rd level, half 4th level, and I expect they'll probably all be 4th level by the time they go for Thistletop. Their pirate ship is currently equipped with three light ballistas.

So, my question is this:
How do you think Nualia and crew would respond to a piratical seige from the sea? How do I prevent this encounter from being a complete walkover?

[Backfromthedeadguy]

Even if they are able to bombard the top, they'll still have to scale like 80 ft cliffs. Plus if the bombardment get too crazy the bad guys still have the levels inside Thistletop to retreat to. If anything the players might make it more difficult because the forces inside will have a chance to respond in a more organized way (instead being taken by surprise by the PCs on foot). Since they have a pirate ship I would expect a crew, so they should utilize those numbers in any kind of mass assault (if they go that route). Or they could find the underwater entrance that leads to the room with the crab, come from below instead of from the top.

[mikeawmids]

Give the goblins a ship of their own.

Or give them a crute trebuchet in the fort's courtyard and have them bombard the PC's ship with corpses swollen with baby tentamorts that burst on impact with the deck. :p

[Wiggz]

Definitely need to impress upon the crew that if they approach by sea:

1) they will be dealing with 80' cliffs that they will have to scale, regardless of whatever bombardment they manage.

2) structures atop 80' cliffs are very difficult to bombard effectively - especially with direct fire weapons like ballistae.

3) there are probably underground levels that foes can retreat to.

4) after bombardment they will be facing organized resistance, having lost the opportunity for a surprise infiltration.

This last point is the most significant. All the goblins from the thorny warrens will be available as will all of the troops from the levels down below. Yeth Hounds can fly - how will those climbing up a cliff respond to the frightened condition? And then there's the bunyip lurking below...

This might seem on the surface to be a good plan, but I would argue against it were I a player as a very bad idea.

[Aotrscommander]

In the history of naval warfare, when it comes to Ship Verses Fort... Fort wins.

Also Goblins really like fire, and have the big advantage of already being high up and in a good position for missile weapons...

My players considered something similar, until I pointed out that scaling the cliffs would require a lot of climb checks, and that they would inevitably be spotted ("but we'd be under the cover or darkness" yes, because goblins totally aren't activate at night...) and that dropping burning things of people is like high art in Goblin culture or something...

[Shiftybob]

Some very good points. I didn't actually realise the fort was that high up.
I'm pretty sure that they're going to try it no matter what I tell them. They've got a pirate ship, and they're itching to use it.

[Poldaran]

Shiftybob wrote:

Some very good points. I didn't actually realise the fort was that high up.

I'm pretty sure that they're going to try it no matter what I tell them. They've got a pirate ship, and they're itching to use it.

If I were them, I'd consider using the ship's catapults to launch grappling hooks and then climb from that side during a foggy period. Has a reasonable chance at both being stealthy and making some use of the pirate ship.

They can also have the crew on the boat prepared with a signal to begin bombardment to draw goblin attention while the PCs are doing something, such as making their escape if things go awry.

[Zapranoth]

My PCs approached Thistletop by sea (they hired a fisherman to drop them off at the edge), and the rogue scaled the cliffs with pitons. This was after they had hit the brambles/hedge and slain all there except Gogmurt.

The PCs used a grapnel to scale the stockade walls, stood on Shadowmist's room and let the goblin dogs have it with the ranged weapons (and the tower guards). Ultimately it became a sizable battle in the courtyard, and after prevailing they withdrew (leaving the remaining foes from level 1 in the throne room).

I thought it worked okay. My PCs are young and inexperienced, so I was glad to see them even think of something that was not a full frontal assault across a rope bridge. :)

[James B. Cline]

I've run a few groups through this and one did what Zapranoth's group did and used a small boat to get up to it. I don't think sieging it would do any good, they could bust down the fort a bit, but it would require allot of time and loads of ammuniton, while the goblins are mobile and could just as easily use the brambles as protection. They could just go inside the dungeon and go to sleep.

Much like how the fort doesn't burn down due to the wet environment, I wouldn't allow the players to just knock it down, unless you just really want to it could be fun.

The ball is in your pc's court, if they want to lob some shots at it I'd let them, heck let them kill a few goblins and use some rowboats to assault. I might even be tempted to add a bunch of extra goblins to the fight so the crew had something to do. No matter what though they are going to have to get out of the boat. Nualia isn't exactly going to leave safety to go take a balista bolt to the face.

[Leozz]

Zapranoth wrote:

My PCs approached Thistletop by sea (they hired a fisherman to drop them off at the edge), and the rogue scaled the cliffs with pitons. This was after they had hit the brambles/hedge and slain all there except Gogmurt.

Same here, after an unlucky frontal assault, they decided to go by sea: hired two fishermen to transport them and keep the rowboats under the cliff, while the rogue and the barbarian climbed it.

Then the two of them fixed a couple of ropes and had the rest of the party being lifted up (they even managed, through combined efforts, to get the Druid's familiar up! had the goblins roll for perception to hear the noises the elk was doing while being in an uncomfortable position), at that point the fishermen left.

The rest of the attack was through main door and developed as per the book.

[Wiggz]

Leozz wrote:

Zapranoth wrote:

My PCs approached Thistletop by sea (they hired a fisherman to drop them off at the edge), and the rogue scaled the cliffs with pitons. This was after they had hit the brambles/hedge and slain all there except Gogmurt.

Same here, after an unlucky frontal assault, they decided to go by sea: hired two fishermen to transport them and keep the rowboats under the cliff, while the rogue and the barbarian climbed it.

Then the two of them fixed a couple of ropes and had the rest of the party being lifted up (they even managed, through combined efforts, to get the Druid's familiar up! had the goblins roll for perception to hear the noises the elk was doing while being in an uncomfortable position), at that point the fishermen left.

The rest of the attack was through main door and developed as per the book.

.

Our group (Summoner, Master Summoner, Fey Sorcerer, Arcane Duelist - all 3rd level) made their assault directly - Gogmurt ambushed them in the thorns but the Sorcerer used Woodland Stride to follow him through the brambles and then Charmed him. He had already sent a sparrow to warn Ripnugget but he gave them lots of good intelligence (including a warning about the bridge) in return for their promise to rid Thistletop of its 'Longshanks' invaders. We crossed the bridge, fought off the mounted goblins and those in the towers making good use of summoned eagles and then penetrated into the 'fortress'.

We cleared the top level, leaving the gobin dogs locked up in the courtyard, before retreating back across the bridge to make camp and rest for the night - during which time Gogmurt (feeling a little betrayed after we tossed a bound Ripnugget into the sea and now sans Charm spell) led the 'refugees' in an attack on us. After dealing with him we ventured down into the lower levels where Tsuto had apparently fled to. If we hadn't charmed Orik into joining us and didn't have the Arcane Duelist to cancel out the Yeth hound's howl there's no way we would have survived.

We thought we did really well and even so, Thistletop was TOUGH for such a low level group of four. The impression I got after reading the adventure was that assaulting Thistletop by sea in any fashion was basically a suicide run unless the GM were to decide that it wasn't. If it makes for a great story, I have no problem with a GM altering the adventure or hand-waving any checks he wishes.

[Kalshane]

My group initially went by land, but didn't like the idea of directly assaulting a goblin fortress via a rickety bridge. After defeating and capturing Gogmurt, they interrogated him about other ways in, and he mentioned the cave opening in the side of the island, but it was guarded by a fierce, goblin-killing monster.

The party decided to retreat back to Sandpoint with Gogmurt in tow to rest and recover, but he wildshaped into a bird and flew away while they were trying to navigate their way back through the Nettlewood.

Back in Sandpoint, they spoke to their friend Jorgi Quinn at The Hagfish and asked him to find them a brave young lad with access to a boat who would be willing to sail them to Thistletop under the cover of darkness. They then went to Sheriff Hemlock and after convincing him they had cleared the Nettlewood of goblins, got him to agree to send four guardsmen to light fires on the shore near Thistletop at midnight and then run like hell, providing a distraction for the party to sneak in.

So they sail in around midnight and the half-orc fighter spots the cave entrance on the east side of the island. They have the boat brought up as close as the sailor dares, then the half-orc fighter tosses his grappling hook and rope up to the cave opening, managing to catch it on the first try. He heads up the rope first, followed by the rest of the party. As soon as he's within 10 feet of the opening, a pair of tentacles whip out of the opening, stinging him and grabbing at him. In addition to the surprise round, the tentamort won on initiative, so it took a heavy toll on the fighter right off the bat. The party is a group of six with 20 point buy, so in a fair fight they likely would have wiped the floor with the tentamort, but clinging to a rope, in the dark, it was a near thing for them.

They finally manage to dispatch the tentamort when the bonfires get lit up on the shore, sending the goblins above into alarm. Which is actually fortunate for them, as the first room they stumble into is the temple. The yeth hounds promptly bay, waking up everyone still asleep in the complex, but the goblins are making too much noise on their own to notice.

The party ends up involved in an epic 15 round fight (half the party running away in a panic, while the other half tries to deal with DR 5 silver with only one silver weapon among them makes for a long grind), with Lyrie, Orik and Bruthazmus joining the fray in round 6 (I had mistakenly assumed they were frightened by the yeth hounds as well. I had missed the part where the sound carried, but the supernatural effect couldn't pass solid barriers.) A timely web from the wizard held the three mercenaries off until they could dispatch the hounds (and more importantly created total cover, preventing Bruthazmus from using his bow.) and Orik quickly changed sides once it was apparent which way the fight was going. His attempts to get Lyrie to follow suit, or at least surrender, fell on deaf ears, as she was determined to slay Tsuto's murderers.

Once Lyrie and Bruthazmus fall, the party strips Orik of his gear and tie him up. They pump him for information, but don't trust him in the slightest. Finally, since the player of the cleric wanted to change characters, they untie Orik and have the cleric take him back down the rope to the boat, while they conveniently find his replacement in one of the prison cells.

After debating what to do, they finally decide to heal up using the wand of CLW they had just identified (I swapped out the wand of shocking grasp for one of CLW because they had forgotten to ID it until they picked up Lyrie's wand of magic missle, and I realized we were heading into TPK-territory if they didn't have some way to heal. The newly rescued character was also a cleric, but I ruled that he was down the same HP and spells his predecessor was. Swapping the wand behind the scenes seemed a little less metagamey, to me.) and head down into the basement to confront Nualia, though the wizard cast disguise self to look like Orik and the alchemist made an infusion of disguise self to let the half-orc fighter look like Bruthazmus, in the hopes they could catch her by surprise by looking like her allies.

Unfortunately, the half-orc fighter stumbled right into the slashing glaives trap, despite how obvious it was, though he managed to survive long enough for the rogue to disable it and free him. The cleric patched him up with more charges from the wand, then he and the wizard went to talk to Nualia. Whose immediate response was to ask "Bruthazmus" why he didn't ask her to disable the trap and then attack.

The party had a long, bruising fight with Nualia, the yeth hound and Erylium (she had survived multiple attempts by the PCs to kill her in the Catacombs of Wrath and finally sought out Nualia to help her retake her "kingdom".) killing the first two (the half-orc fighter managed to trip Nualia, and she blew her concentration check to cast Sanctuary defensively. She did manage to cast Obscuring Mist and get back on her feet, but got tripped again trying to flee after the fire-specialist wizard used Firejet to clear the mist around her. Erylium, on the other hand, escaped yet again.

They then pressed on, found Malfeshnekor, but fled the room the instant he appeared and took a chunk out of the half-orc, had a long, frustrating fight with the shadows due to lack of magic weapons, the cleric being out of channels and the alchemist's last bomb not working nearly as well as he had hoped, but managed to prevail due to having packed holy water with the idea of trying to drown Erylium with it.

The alchemist was convinced there had to be another way out and insisted on pressing on, finding the secret door in the crypt and nearly getting torn apart by the giant crab (he was in negatives when the rest of the party managed to do enough damage to it to get it drop him and deal with them). Realizing the tidal pool offered a way out, but one with a small chance of success for anyone but the fighters, they decided to re-arm the slashing glaives trap and then close the secret door and hunker down in the sunken treasury to rest. They're currently debating how bad an idea it would be to try to light a fire to cook the crab.