Scarred Witch Doctor + Ice Witch?

Rules Questions

Dark Archive

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Is it possible to take both of the above archetypes? The main point of conflict appears to be the familiar.

The Ice Witch is limited to a smaller pool of familiars to choose from, while the Scarred Witch Doctor replaces your familiar entirely. I think if you could take them together the latter would supersede the former, replacing the familiar, but would it be kosher to do so?

No. If two archetypes replace or modify the same class feature you can not combine them.

Dark Archive

That's a shame--is there any way to get around it? I'm mostly looking to take the Winter Witch prestige class in conjunction with the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype.

The problem here is the winter doesn't explicitly say it modifies the familiar (at least in my copy) just that they must be natives of the frozen north. It flies in face of rai, and reeks of cheese, but the Raw is weirdly put. They probably forgot the line and it needs errata. Unless they fixed it in recent copies.

Are we talking about two archtypes or an archetype and a prestige class?

I will just look it up and get back to you.

There is a winter witch(WW) archetype which is needed to enter the winter witch prestige class.

The winter witch PrC does not conflict with the SWD(scarred witch doctor, BUT the SWD does conflict with the WW(archetype).

The WW archetype modifies the familiar class feature, and the SWD replaces it with the mask so those two are not compatible.

They don't have to use the word "modify". The fact that you need a familiar to be chosen for the WW archetype, and the SWD does not even allow for you to have a familiar means they are not compatible.

Winter witches must choose a familiar that is native to the frozen north, even when they themselves operate in other regions.

In addition:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.

The WW alters it by changing your options, and the SWD replaces it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

christos gurd wrote:
The problem here is the winter doesn't explicitly say it modifies

This is an all too common confusion.

If they modify, alter, or just about simply mention; then chances are this will block using it with another archetype.

It doesn't work unless your GM houserules it. Sorry.

Dark Archive

So since the Winter Witch prestige class requires the Ice Magic class feature, and only the Winter Witch archetype gains that class feature, I wouldn't be able to be a Scarred Witch Doctor and still enter the Winter Witch prestige class? That's too bad :-/

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

GhostwheelX wrote:
That's too bad :-/

But it is by design. ;-)

Dark Archive

Sounds silly to make a prestige class that can only be taken by one class, and even more silly, by only one archetype of that class that invalidates many of the other archetypes of the class.

So if it's on purpose, by design, then I think that's a place where the designers failed.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

the prestige class can be taken by many archetypes/classes.
your question was, are the two archetypes compatible.

Dark Archive

Oh? Which other classes and archetypes can take the Winter Witch prestige class?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

GhostwheelX wrote:
Oh? Which other classes and archetypes can take the Winter Witch prestige class?

Any class that has Ice Magic.

Look, Paths of Prestige is a list of very specific Prestige Classes. Most of them are pretty locked down in one way or another. That is the way of Prestige classes.

It was by design, not by chance, that they locked it down to the Ice Magic class feature.

You can call it "bad design", but in reality it is good design. I don't think anyone wants 3.5's PrC crazy world to come back. So limiting PrC to very few entrances, and having a limited number of interesting PrC is a good idea.

Dark Archive

And what classes, pray tell, apart from the Winter Witch archetype, get Ice Magic? Because I've looked, and found that there are none.

If that was their design overall, then they wouldn't have created 90% of the other PrCs that can all be entered by at least 3 other classes (with almost any archetypes). This is an exception to how they usually did PrCs, not the rule.

And the limiters on PrCs shouldn't come from arbitrary things like that, but from the entry requirements (which on the whole are much higher in PF, and that's a good thing) and the loss of what you would gain if you continued in your original class/PrC chosen (also something that PF does well).

But the Winter Witch is an exception to 90% of all the other prestige classes. The closest one that I can think of in term of requirements is the Master Chymist, and even that can be entered by ANY alchemist archetype.

Grand Lodge

It's compatible with most other non race specific witch archtypes, and it happens to be a very regional and race specific prestige class. Just house rule it if you don't like it, but it's designed to be taken within the context of Golarion as a campaign setting. Jadwiga probably wouldn't teach witches who follow a particularly orcish tradition of how to be winter witches. It makes sense to me they're supposed to be racially intolerant.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

GhostwheelX wrote:
But the Winter Witch is an exception to 90% of all the other prestige classes.

Even if your 90% quote is right, think about it this way:

The Winter Witch is all about the cold. How many other cold focused classes/archetypes are there? How many that block fire casting? Does it even make any logical sense to call it a Winter Witch and allow entrance by a class that can cast fire spells? No.

GhostwheelX wrote:
Oh? Which other classes and archetypes can take the Winter Witch prestige class?

To my knowledge that archetype is the only way to get it so you have to get the WW archetype.

The WW archetype and PrC were made to go together. Archetypes are not made with the intention to be combined with each other. Some can be, and some can now. Maybe in the future another PrC will have Ice Magic, but for now that is all they have.

Many times a rule is influenced by theme, and not just balance. That is the case here.

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