[PFS] Two-bladed tengu concept advice


Advice

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My concept here is slightly vague, so hopefully folks can help me flesh it out.

Here's what I have so far:

I haven't seen many tengu locally, so I'm curious to try one out.
I'd like to take advantage of Swordtrained by using something exotic, and the two-bladed sword just seems cool. Also, the Tengu Wings feat just seems too cool to pass up, which means I could be a flying, spinning cyclone of feathers and steel.

Liking this so far. :D

So that means I want some TWF feats, which means I probably want at least a level or two of fighter. Okay, good so far.

Do I want to go pure martial? I'm hesitant about that idea, as it feels so... not-in-control to not be able to cast spells at all. Also, since I won't be using a shield and also want to be mobile (for the flying), I probably won't have a stellar armor class, so being able to cast things like blur or mirror image sounds really appealing (that racial CON penalty has my attention as well).

Two thoughts I had were to go fighter/alchemist or fighter/wizard/EK. Either way, stats would probably be this:

STR 16
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 12 (14-2, ouch)
INT 14
WIS 11 (9+2)
CHA 07

In either case, I'd probably take a trait to get INT-based Diplomacy, and if I went EK I'd take Magical Knack to make up the CL.

Pros and cons:
Alchemist:
Pros:
• Mutagen
• Throwing bombs from the air seems cool :D
• Never played an alchemist before
Cons:
• Slower "spell" progression
• Lower BAB, on top of TWF penalties (thus additional reliance on buffs)

Eldritch Knight (early-entry):
Pros:
• Nearly full BAB (only miss one point)
• Better spell progression (2nd level at 5th, same as Ftr1/Alch4, then faster thereafter)
• A bit less "mainstream" than Yet-Another-Fighter-Alchemist
• Get another bonus feat, which is helpful
• Capable of using scrolls
• Access to Weapon Specialization, if I want it.
• Bigger hit dice
• Better will saves
Cons:
• I've played an EK before (though admittedly this one would be pretty different)

Hrm. That list is a bit less balanced than I expected. Even so, am I missing anything?

Grand Lodge

Why not Ranger?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

...Not enough spells for my taste for monoclassing, and doesn't help my TWF feats with a one-level dip?

On the other hand, it has some nice features in Favored Enemy and skills...

How would you picture a ranger version of this?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Here's an idea:

Swordmaster Rogue (the Tengu archetype) lets you enter a stance that essentially allows you to charge and pounce. It can also stack with the Scout archetype that lets you get sneak attack on charges. See where I'm going with this? You could invest in UMD rather than take levels in a spellcasting class.

Also, if you want to throw bombs from the air, you don't need to be a Tengu. The Wings discovery is leaps and bounds better than the Tengu Wings feat.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Here's an idea:

Swordmaster Rogue (the Tengu archetype) lets you enter a stance that essentially allows you to charge and pounce. It can also stack with the Scout archetype that lets you get sneak attack on charges. See where I'm going with this?

You appear to be going someplace where a TWFing, non-Finesse, 3/4 BAB class needs to be able to beat people's CMDs before he can even attempt his pounce. I'm not sure I like those odds, especially when the enemy is going to shred my poor undefensable self when their turn comes. :/

Quote:
You could invest in UMD rather than take levels in a spellcasting class.

True, but scroll UMD is nasty, and wands of things like blur/mirror image are expensive.

Quote:
Also, if you want to throw bombs from the air, you don't need to be a Tengu. The Wings discovery is leaps and bounds better than the Tengu Wings feat.

I'm not looking at a tengu so that I can give my bomb-thrower flight, I'm looking at bomb-throwing as something to add to my flying tengu.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i think lore warden/scryer/EK is the way to go. better combat abilities, better magic, the only drawback is that you can't lob bombs at people from the sky (a tactic which is only effective until you meet an archer, and will only be fun a couple of times).

also, one of the big benefits of double weapons (besides being able to 2hand them for extra damage when you move, or for AoOs) is that your only using one weapon, so things like weapon focus and specialization get double the mileage... take advantage of that by actually qualifying for and choosing them :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've got to admit, the idea of saving some serious cash by having it be my arcane bond is pretty tempting as well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jiggy wrote:
I've got to admit, the idea of saving some serious cash by having it be my arcane bond is pretty tempting as well.

as i understand it, that's less true in PFS play (cause only your first enchant is half price), but still that's nice flavor and crunch :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Actually, a while back they changed the PFS rule so you can keep on upgrading at-cost for each step, not just the first.

So I could get a free masterwork two-bladed sword as my starting bonded item (700gp value) and then do all my enchanting at half price (so the price of a normal single-weapon fighter, really).

On the other hand, it means that people can disarm my ability to cast spells. :/

Sovereign Court

Arcane Bond via Arcane Duelist could work nicely for that purpose. You could technically also go Bard/Fighter/EK using it.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
Arcane Bond via Arcane Duelist could work nicely for that purpose. You could technically also go Bard/Fighter/EK using it.

Not in any kind of reasonable time frame, I couldn't.

And anyway, the arcane bond isn't a key element of the decision, just something to consider if I do otherwise decide to go EK anyway.

Lantern Lodge

I understand that this is (slightly) off-topic as it doesn't satisfy any magical withdrawal shaking.

Swordmaster Rogue 4/Lore Warden X compliment each other nicely. You only lose 1 BAB, get a static bonus to all(!) CMB/CMD, and still get to charge pounce sneak attack 2wf.

Add Stand Still or Step Up or something else to taste. It's not tasting that sweet, sweet arcane power, but maybe it was intervention time anyways.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I can quit any time I want! I'm just choosing not to!

Lantern Lodge

You could be even more spinny, deathy, swordy and build the (UCom) Dervish Bard.

Free Haste that scales as you level, free Improved Critical (doublesword is 19-20, right?), and a bit of spellcasting and skills to boot.

Dark Archive

Do you have to use blades? My take on the build would be Sohei/Wizard two-hander, with his Amulet (of mighty fists, eventually) as his Arcane Focus.

Sohei 1/Scryer 1/EK X

Str: 7
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7

Advantage:
*Higher AC
*One stat to really focus (int will eventually need to go up a little with items).
*Taking real advantage of all things Tengu. High dex, Wis bonus (to AC), and the ability to have 3 natural attacks.

@ 4 when you have enough PP to have an AoMF PFS (or earlier in home game), you spend 2K to get the Finessee Keyword. So you're:

1) Weapon Finessee, Flurry of blows, whatever else (start a style feat, weapon focus, possibilities are endless)

You get flurry, so don't really need TWF/Improved until 9 (and that's only if you care to spend three feats for an extra iterative)

Obviously -1 BAB and your 1st level feat IS Weapon Finessee. Also, until you have that Amulet: Agile, you are looking at just spending your rounds Dazing or making provoking trip attacks (which have a solid chance to land thanks to Finesee).

Just some thoughts; otherwise this character would be strictly better as a human (thanks to +STR/INT with no Con penalty).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Weapon Cord is still a nice item to prevent being disarmed Jiggy, so the doublesword would be safely teid to one hand while you can use your other hand to cast spells.

Could you please have your beak black with red patterns on it then and use a brilliant energy doublesword then? :D

On the other hand, why not a magus?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thalin wrote:
Do you have to use blades?

Yes, that's kind of the point. The starting point is not "let's build an EK" and then I thought a tengu with a two-bladed sword would be the best way to do it; it's "let's build a tengu using a two-bladed sword" and I though an EK might be a way to make that work.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hayato Ken wrote:
Could you please have your beak black with red patterns on it then and use a brilliant energy doublesword then? :D

Go to your room and think about what you've done.

Quote:
On the other hand, why not a magus?

...

...

...

...

...because I'm silly and didn't think of it.

EDIT: So what's a good flavor of magus for a tengu who will never use Spell Combat, ever?

Grand Lodge

Okay, so the must have list is:

1) Tengu.

2) Wield Double Sword.

3) Cast some spells.

4) Fly.

Am I missing anything?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Okay, so the must have list is:

1) Tengu.

2) Wield Double Sword.

3) Cast some spells.

4) Fly.

Am I missing anything?

#3 might be negotiable if you can make a strong enough case, particularly if it involves more cool stuff to do with the sword. But yeah, I think you've pretty much got it.

Dark Archive

Sensei Cleric of Desna using Wisdom for all attacks and damage wielding a Monk's Spade?

Str: 7
Int: 11
Wis: 20
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Sensei 2/Cleric X
Domains - Travel / Luck
Sensei-1) TWF, Weapon Finessee
3rd (Cleric 1) - Double Slice

At this level you are +5 to hit for d6+5... solid enough damage output. You also get 4 1st level spells and have an unbuffed AC of 18. You are -2 BAB, but really only have 1 stat to focus on, as it gives you AC, to hit, damage, spells, etc.

You are using cleric spells instead of arcane, but have flight and Inspire Courage. Your Saves are very solid and you are a heck of a buffer; still 2 levels behind on casting (but with trait full caster level).

I've been thinking of a similar concept for a while (the Sensei-Cleric frontliner).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thalin wrote:
I've been thinking of a similar concept for a while

Our concepts don't seem so similar, IMO.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hayato Ken wrote:
On the other hand, why not a magus?

Thinking about it more, I don't think I want to do a magus. I like the EK's bonus feats too much to give up (considering I want TWF, Double Slice, Arcane Strike, Tengu Wings, and Power Attack all as soon as is reasonably possible). Not to mention the EK will surpass the magus in both spellcasting ability and BAB, and wielding a two-bladed sword prevents me from using Spell Combat. So all in all, if I go the gish route, it's looking like EK > magus for this particular PC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Would be too coll if you would use a double chicken saber^^

Else black-bladed kensai magus with a mithral breastplate? Add in shield spell and other defenses?

In the beginning you would want lamellar leather armor asap and a can of armor ointment. With the shield spell you get to AC 20 then. Proabaly would want a wand of that.

Now if quarterstaff master wouldn´t say quarterstaff.....

Dark Archive

The issue is you're playing a Tengu without taking advantage of anything that the Tengu has:

*Your primary stats are Str and Int, neither are bonuses for the Tengu.
*You aren't taking advantage of the Tengu's natural attacks. The free sword proficiencies are nicer if you aren't a fighter in the first place.

Tengus are one of the most powerful races in the game, but you're not taking advantage of anything except the 1 / day flight feat here. I'm trying to give you outs that take advantage of Tengu's natural affinity to Wis/Dex and their natural attacks while still doing all things you want (Fly, wield 2 blades,be a tengu, cast some spells).

So if you want a straight-EK without taking advantage of the Tengu's stats, you generally know the feat-line, but it's going to play as an underpowered mage rather than how you are picturing it.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

What about something like this?

Hellic, the tengu tornado

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 07

Traits: Clever Wordplay (INT to Diplomacy), Magical Knack

Ftr1: Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
Wiz1: Spells!

At 2nd level, which is where I start playing him, he's got 17 HP (favored class: wizard). AC is 13, or 17 with mage armor, 21 with shield. He attacks with a masterwork TBS at +5 for 1d8+4 or +3/+3 for same. He's basically a fighter who has to cast his armor.

Third level is probably Wizard2, since it won't interrupt my BAB, gives me +1 Will, gets me another spell slot, and makes my Send Senses last another round. Feat would be Arcane Strike for +1 damage.

Fourth level is EK1, giving me Power Attack as a bonus feat. Now my single attack is +6 for 1d8+7, and TWF is +4/+4 for 1d8+6/1d8+5 (unless I turn off Power Attack, in which case it's +5/+5 for 1d8+4/1d8+4). DEX goes up to 17.

Fifth level is EK2, and I finally get 2nd-level spells. I also probably have a +2 STR belt, so I can 2HPA at +7 for 1d8+14, or I can TWF at (PA) +5/+5 for 1d8+10/1d8+8 or (non-PA) +7/+7 for 1d8+6/1d8+6. And of course, my 5th-level feat is Tengu Wings! Concept complete! :D

Grand Lodge

Battle Mystery Shigenjo Oracle, focusing on combat maneuvers.

Silver Crusade

Rogue with one level of monk to bost your AC. With the right equipment you could end up with a good AC. With out needing spells. Just make your weapons agile. The AC plus sneak damage should do you well for a light fighter type.


I've enjoyed my TWF Tengu Ranger (multi-classing in Barbarian). He has the angry bird concept. The wings and beak racial feats make great flair. I went ranger so I didn't have to meet the TWF dexterity prerequisites and helped with the -2 con hit.

Grand Lodge

I would just avoid Rogue, in general, but that's me.

Battle Mystery Shigenjo Oracle, into Urban Barbarian, into Rage Prophet sounds interesting.


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Jiggy: I may have missed it, but where are you getting the 3rd level spell for early entry into EK from?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

well... i understand you need your magic fix, but if #3 is actually negotiable you could try:

tengu [glide], fighter
Str 17
Dex 17 (15+2race)
Con 12 (14-2race)
Int 09
Wis 12 (10+2race)
Cha 07

yes- he's a bit dim, but i figured if you're moving away from magic you might as well really move away...

trait: magical talent [message], eyes and ears of the city

skill: perception

feats:
1- 2WF
F1- double slice
F2- wpn focus[double bladed sword]
3- arcane strike (using Magical Talent to qualify)
F4- wpn spec[DBS] (+1 Str)
5- tengu wings (caster level from feat increases magical talent/arcane strike)
F6- imp. 2WF
7- power attack
F8- imp. wpn focus (+1 Dex)
9- imp.crit
F10- ?any combat feat?
11- two-weapon rend
F12- gr. 2WF; relearn F10: gr. wpn spec (+1 Dex)

PA comes late, which will hurt your 2H attacks a little, but with the 2WF penalty i thought it wise to take Arcane Strike first. no (significant) magical ability, not much to do out of combat, but if you want to be a cyclone of feathers and steel this would be tough to beat.

edit: @pirate rob- the SLA from scryer is 3rd level arcane...
@jiggy- at 4th this guy could single attack at +9 for 1d8+9 or full attack at +7/7 for 1d8+7 each
re-edit: at 8th, even with a Dex belt, he could wear Mithril Fullplate with no movement penalty and no lost Dex bonus; and, without factoring in a magical weapon, he'd single attack at +12 for 1d8+20 or full attack at +10/10/5/5 for 1d8+15 (main) or 1d8+12 (off-hand)


Quote:
Fourth level is EK1, giving me Power Attack as a bonus feat. Now my single attack is +6 for 1d8+7, and TWF is +4/+4 for 1d8+6/1d8+5 (unless I turn off Power Attack, in which case it's +5/+5 for 1d8+4/1d8+4). DEX goes up to 17.

So as someone who has not yet used spell-like shenanigans to gain EK, you are using scrying sensor as 3rd level spell-like to qualify for EK at level 4?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tangaroa wrote:
Quote:
Fourth level is EK1, giving me Power Attack as a bonus feat. Now my single attack is +6 for 1d8+7, and TWF is +4/+4 for 1d8+6/1d8+5 (unless I turn off Power Attack, in which case it's +5/+5 for 1d8+4/1d8+4). DEX goes up to 17.

So as someone who has not yet used spell-like shenanigans to gain EK, you are using scrying sensor as 3rd level spell-like to qualify for EK at level 4?

Yep.

Though the more I picture the flying-combat stuff, the more I think I might actually prefer a pure martial, maybe some monk/fighter (lore warden?) grapple-flight shenanigans.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

the problem with "grapple-flight shenanigans" is that a tengu can only fly once/day... you might be able to use the trick in more than one encounter if they're close together, but you can't count on that. /shrug

if you want to try it, look at maybe doing tetori 4/lore warden X. pick up agile maneuvers and you could actually take advantage of the racial stat bonuses tengu get. the biggest downside is that a double bladed sword would probably feel tacked on (and it'd be tough to manage the feats for both grappling and 2WF). imho, you'd be better off dropping the DBS and swordtraining, and picking up the racial claws...

for a pure martial dual-wielding-death-cyclone, see my above suggestion.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, I wasn't clear, but I meant a grappler instead of a TBS user.

And at 7th I could actually fly 2/day: once by sprouting wings, and once by shifting into a large raven.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Battle Mystery Shigenjo Oracle, focusing on combat maneuvers.

+1

Shadow Lodge

Two-Weapon Warrior or Dervish of Dawn fighter could be a nice pure martial TWFer, with the feats for TWF and with Pseudo-Pounce powers.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i looked a little more, and if you want to go for flying-grapple-shenanignas tetori 4/lore warden X is the way to go. tetori is a great fit if you want monk levels (and synergizes really well with your racial stats), and 4 levels gets you a bunch of benefits with only -1 BAB (and that only on attacks, full BAB on grapple). lore warden gets the nice static bonus to CMB and the bonus from Know Thy Enemy actually applies to grapple checks as well. take agile maneuvers and focus primarily on Dex>Wis>Str and pick up muleback cords before 5th so that you can fly with heavier opponents.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was actually thinking I should be STR-based so that, in addition to grappling while I have wings, I could take Tengu Raven Form and grapple as a large bird with +4STR/-2DEX/+1size.

Grand Lodge

You know, if you don't use the Battle Mystery Shigenjo Oracle idea, I am actually saving that for a future build.


Hmm, what I did was something really dissimilar.

claw attack free-hand fighter wielding a flail and focusing on disarm attempts.

1. steal weapons off bad guys. (sadly, their weapon doesn't end up in your free hand, because you're not unarmed. but picking up a weapon off the ground is fine because the bad guy doesn't threaten anymore!)

2. free hand fighter + Crane Style = birdy symmetry...uh...

3. at 13th level, Interference + Deadly Stroke = win...but not for PFS

Sure you're not using a sword...but for you, swords are free! caw caw!

Has anybody seen Ace Attorney Dual Destinies? Tengu Tetori monk FTW!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jiggy wrote:
I was actually thinking I should be STR-based so that, in addition to grappling while I have wings, I could take Tengu Raven Form and grapple as a large bird with +4STR/-2DEX/+1size.

if you went with something like 14 Str and 17 Dex (going up at 4th), you'd still have 8 points (not including potentially dumping Int/Cha) for Wis>Con(>more Dex). you don't have to use Dex for CMB with agile maneuvers- so when winged use your 18 Dex, when in raven form Dex drops to 16 but Str goes up to 18 so you just stop using agile maneuvers? you could go Str based all the time and save yourself a feat, but i suspect your AC might be a problem at that point... armor will make you miss out on monk abilities and eat into your available carrying capacity (which will be very important if you plan to flying-grapple).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Well, a stat spread like this...

STR 16
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 12 (14-2)
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 07

...would seem pretty okay for a tengu STR-based monk, right?

Dark Archive

Jiggy, if you want to be able to upgrade your sword as an arcane bond, you'll need at least five levels of wizard.

I still think single-classed ranger has the most punch, lack of arcane spellcasting or no.


Ok Jiggy, something close to your original concept.

Fuumkuf, Two-Sword Arcane Duelist

Start with Str 15, bump at level 4.

To-hit isn't great, but uses heroism, inspiring courage and arcane strike to go from:
+1/+1 two-bladed sword +5/5 (1d8+4/1d8+4/19-20) and bite +1 (1d3+1)

to:
+1/+1 two-bladed sword +9/9 (1d8+8/1d8+8/19-20) and bite +5 (1d3+5)

Plus, she's buffing her teammates at the same time. Can use other buffing magic (Allegro, aka Haste-lite), and mirror image for defense - standard melee bard stuff.

Being an arcane duelist,she should really take step up at 7th to take advantage of the free spellbreaker/disruptive feats.

Silver Crusade

Meteor Hammer! Paladin/lore warden!

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