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resurrecting the idea in this thread.
this proposal eliminates the 'virtual BAB' table of the core monk.
it also provides a unique mechanic rather than just a TWF knock-off for a main class feature.
Once per round as a free action, a monk may activate his flurry of blows ability as part of a full attack action, striking his foe multiple times in combination. If at least one of his regular attacks hits his opponent, he may immediately make an extra flurry attack against that same foe at his full base attack bonus.
As the monk gains experience, his flurry of blows ability increases in combination. At 6th level, if his first flurry attack hits his opponent, he may immediately make a second flurry attack against that same foe. At 11th level, if his second flurry attack hits his opponent, he may immediately make a third flurry attack. At 16th level, if his third flurry attack hits his opponent, he may immediately make a fourth and final flurry attack.
As the monk gains experience, his flurry of blows ability increases in speed. At 8th level, he may activate his flurry of blows ability as part of a standard attack action. At 15th level, he may activate his flurry of blows ability when he makes an attack of opportunity.
A monk may only use his flurry of blows ability when fighting with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike.
...
Flurry Table:
1 - +0 (full)
2 - +1
3 - +2
4 - +3
5 - +3
6 - +4/+4
7 - +5/+5
8 - +6/+6 (standard)
9 - +6/+6
10- +7/+7
11- +8/+8/+8
12- +9/+9/+9
13- +9/+9/+9
14- +10/+10/+10
15- +11/+11/+11 (opportunity)
16- +12/+12/+12/+12
17- +12/+12/+12/+12
18- +13/+13/+13/+13
19- +14/+14/+14/+14
20- +15/+15/+15/+15
...
thoughts?
I'm not too sure I understand this, but I like it. It could be the fact that I woke up 20 minutes ago.
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basically, the monk is an ordinary 3/4 BAB combatant. meaning, unless he takes Two-Weapon Fighting or Cleave or some other feat which grants additional attacks, he is making a single attack per round (until his BAB reaches +6/+1 normally).
if he scores a hit in the ordinary course of combat, his Flurry triggers, granting him an extra attack. At higher levels, he is granted multiple extra attacks so long he 'stays hot' - ie the extra attacks continue to hit their mark.
the language of the proposal surely needs work.
I can't see this as anything other than a serious whack with the nerf-bat on a class that seriously doesn't need it. The monk already has problems hitting, so making the FoB attacks conditional on hitting once AND restricting them to 3/4 BAB so they have less chance of making that hit than normal is basically thumbing your nose at the class.
The monk's problems are not with the flurry of blows mechanics so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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"Once per round as a free action..."
however, you writing this out points out two silly holes.
at level 1, using a full round action to get one attack in hopes of triggering the flurry is silly. maybe this first flurry attack should just be automatic, and only the later flurry attacks (at 6/11/16) be proc attacks?
at level 15, maybe 4 attacks on a single opportunity is too good. i suppose i wanted there to be goodies at 8th and 15th levels...
ok take 2 - allowing flurry attacks to modify any attack action (instant mobility), and laxening the proc requirements to allow any successive attacks to serve as trigger, and widening the focus of attacks from a single to any opponent, and finally allowing for the use of non-monk weapons to make the 'regular' attacks (just not the 'flurry' attacks):
Once per round as a free action, a monk may activate his flurry of blows ability as part of , striking his foe multiple times in combination. He may make one extra at his full base attack bonus.
As the monk gains experience, his flurry of blows ability increases in combination. At 6th level,
A monk may only a monk weapon or an unarmed strike.
...
Extra 'Flurry Attacks' Table
1 - +0
2 - +1
3 - +2
4 - +3
5 - +3
6 - +4/+4*
7 - +5/+5
8 - +6/+6
9 - +6/+6
10- +7/+7
11- +8/+8/+8**
12- +9/+9/+9
13- +9/+9/+9
14- +10/+10/+10
15- +11/+11/+11
16- +12/+12/+12/+12***
17- +12/+12/+12/+12
18- +13/+13/+13/+13
19- +14/+14/+14/+14
20- +15/+15/+15/+15
* second 'flurry attack' only if one or more attacks hit
** third 'flurry attack' only if two or more attacks hit
***fourth 'flurry attack' only if three or more attacks hit
You are still taking a class that already has problems hitting and reducing their to-hit still further. While the current flurry-of-blows is not perfect, it isn't broken, so why fix it with something less effective and more complicated?
I like the basics of the idea but would change them slightly. 1st, make the monk full BAB class. 2nd, just give them the extra attacks and don't restrict it to a hit or miss.
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I like the idea, but what about a
Monk Base Attack Bonus:A monk uses his class level as his Base Attack Bonus.
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thanks for the input folks!
Context for the proposal:
i make this proposal in a sort of preliminary vacuum, not in relation to other changes i intend to make, for consideration not as the silver bullet to 'fixing' the class but to add to the idea pool for several changes to make the monk class more functional and unique.
that said, of the contributors above, i like some of the changes you have made (especially Dabbler's), and others i don't like. but i don't want to so much discuss those here.
except maybe BigDTBone's suggestion. hmm...
to me, the main 'problem' i am addressing with FoB is that it feels like a cheap knock-off of two-weapon fighting, and i feel that as a central class feature, it should have it's own unique mechanical style.
BAB:
i am not a fan of virtual-BAB (tacky!), nor granting full-BAB (breaks precedent). though, i admit the monk needs an additional boost to his to-hit rolls.
so, though it amounts to about the same thing, maybe i grant an attack bonus at 'dead-BAB levels' (1st/5th/9th/13th/17th) for all attacks the monk makes as part of a flurry? like this:
Monk Table (partial):
1 - Flurry of Blows +1 (one attack)
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 - Flurry of Blows +2
6 - Flurry of Blows (two attacks)
7 -
8 -
9 - Flurry of Blows +3
10-
11- Flurry of Blows (three attacks)
12-
13- Flurry of Blows +4
14-
15-
16- Flurry of Blows (four attacks)
17- Flurry of Blows +5
18-
19-
20-
Flurry of Blows (alternate 3)
Once per round as a free action, a monk may activate his flurry of blows ability as part of another attack action, striking his foe multiple times in combination. He may make one extra 'flurry attack' at his full base attack bonus, . This is an exception to the rule that a character may only make multiple attacks using a full action - a 'flurry attack' may be made as part of any attack action.
As the monk gains experience, his flurry of blows ability increases in combination. At 6th level, if at least one of the attacks he has made this round strikes a foe, he may make a second 'flurry attack' as part of the same attack action. At 11th level, if at least two of the attacks he has made this round strikes a foe, he may make a third 'flurry attack' as part of the same attack action. At 16th level, if at least three of the attacks he has made this round strikes a foe, he may make a fourth 'flurry attack' as part of the same attack action.
A monk may only with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike.
...
the point here is to allow him to use, say, a longspear for it's reach quality (or any other proficient but non-monk weapon) by omitting the flurry bonus to hit, and never as a 'flurry attack'...
thoughts?
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i respect your difference of opinion, Kazaan.
BigDTBone, your idea essentially amounts to removing the -2 penalty from the core monk (just shy of granting actual-full BAB). so, what if the 'BAB question' was divorced from the Flurry of Blows mechanic entirely?
that is, the monk has 3/4-BAB, and limited access to prerequisite-bypassing feats via Bonus Feats class feature (as normal). then, under Unarmed Strike class feature, we grant full-BAB privileges for unarmed strikes, monk weapons, and combat maneuvers (). finally, we just have Flurry of Blows grant additional attacks at 1st, 8th, and 15th levels, but without the -2 penalty, and again only for unarmed strikes and monk weapons. voila.
now, say we go this route, would it be ok to allow the Flurry attacks to be incorporated as part of either a full or standard action attack? i think so. the attack math look like this:
standard
1st: +1/+1
8th: +8/+8/+8
15th: +15/+15/+15/+15
full
1st: +1/+1
8th: +8/+8/+8/+3
15th: +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
TWF
1st: -1/-1/-1
8th: +6/+6/+6/+6/+1
15th: +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
(with the option of additional iteratives with greater TWF investment)
this monk's full attacks are even stronger, but his 'mobile' attacks are still pretty damn decent, especially when you factor in Fast Movement. and, only using unarmed strike and monk weapons.
...
the question lingering concerns 'special' attack actions... (think charge, Cleave, Whirlwind, Spring, etc...)
...
edit: final mobility idea given the two BAB paradigm: a monk using unarmed strikes or monk weapons may either utilize his full BAB as a full attack, or his 3/4 BAB as a standard attack (with allowing the exception of multiple attacks). compared to above, instead of granting the iterative attacks if he 'slows down', we grant highest bonus attacks if he 'slows down'. i think this is a decent middle ground. the attack math looks like this:
standard
1st: +0
8th: +6/+1
15th: +11/+6/+1
full
1st: +1/+1
8th: +8/+8/+8/+3
15th: +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
standard TWF
1st: -2/-2
8th: +4/+4/-1
15th: +9/+9/+4/-1
full TWF
1st: -1/-1/-1
8th: +6/+6/+6/+6/+1
15th: +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
...
thoughts?
to me, the main 'problem' i am addressing with FoB is that it feels like a cheap knock-off of two-weapon fighting, and i feel that as a central class feature, it should have it's own unique mechanical style.
BAB:
i am not a fan of virtual-BAB (tacky!), nor granting full-BAB (breaks precedent). though, i admit the monk needs an additional boost to his to-hit rolls.
I agree with your points about uniqueness and virtual-BAB, but it's not the monk's main problem. When I did a full re-write of the monk class I took the 3/4 BAB, and made FoB a sequence of extra attacks when they had a full-attack. However, it was with a whole suite of changes that also gave the monk fighter-like weapon training so their effective-BAB was much better.
With my other monk changes, designed to be tacked onto the core monk as-is, I haven't touched FoB because it's not the problem and it's to complex to fix easily.
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it is too complex to fix easily.
and i wonder if all the back and forth will either bring me around to your point of view (quite likely), or, if from the circling there will emerge an elegant solution that addresses the uniqueness and virtual-BAB issue (remote possibility).
another idea:
Flurry of Blows (Alternate):
When you make a full attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, you may make an additional 'flurry' attack at your highest base attack bonus, and all your attack this round gain a +1 to hit. This bonus rises by +1 every four monk levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
A monk of 6th level gains a second extra 'flurry' attack when using his flurry of blows ability. An 11th level monk gains a third extra attack. A 16th level monk gains a fourth extra attack.
An 8th level monk may make a full attack as standard action when using his flurry of blows ability. However, he only gains half of his additional 'flurry' attacks (round down) when doing so. A 15th level monk may make a single extra 'flurry' attack when he makes an attack of opportunity. This allows him to break the usual rule of one attack per opportunity.
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Rhatahema,
you are right about focusing on what i want out of the mechanic. and my favorite idea so far is the idea. that is, that gaining multiple attacks is a function of previous attacks successfully hitting. which, was the original idea of the thread that i'd like to get back to.
:
A monk who attacks his foes and scores one or more hits may make additional 'flurry' attacks as a free action. A 1st level monk who scores at least one hit this turn may make up to one additional 'flurry' attack. A 6th level monk who scores at least two hits this turn may make up to two additional 'flurry' attacks. An 11th level monk who scores at least three hits this turn may make up to three additional 'flurry' attacks. A 16th level monk who scores at least four hits this turn may make up to four additional 'flurry' attacks. All 'flurry' attacks are made using the monk's level in place of his base attack bonus (plus any base attack bonus gained from other classes), and may only be made using monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
When first gaining this ability, the monk may only make 'flurry' attacks as part of another full attack action. Upon reaching 8th level, the monk may make 'flurry' attacks as part of any standard attack action, but only up to half the usual amount he is normally allowed (rounded down). Upon reaching 15th level, the monk may make a single additional 'flurry' attack immediately upon scoring a hit with an attack of opportunity, so long as he doesn't exceed the amount of 'flurry' attacks he is normally allowed to make this round.
...
Flurry of Blows Table:
1 - +1 (as full attack)
2 - +2
3 - +3
4 - +4
5 - +5
6 - +6/+6
7 - +7/+7
8 - +8/+8 (as standard attack)
9 - +9/+9
10- +10/+10
11- +11/+11/+11
12- +12/+12/+12
13- +13/+13/+13
14- +14/+14/+14
15- +15/+15/+15 (as opportunity attack)
16- +16/+16/+16/+16
17- +17/+17/+17/+17
18- +18/+18/+18/+18
19- +19/+19/+19/+19
20- +20/+20/+20/+20
...
allowances:
1) TWF is compatible - the monk imposes a -2 but gets more chances to score a 'hit'
2) extra 4th level ki-pool attack is compatible
3) language is intentionally vague as to whether 'special' full/standard action attacks are compatible - i'd like to be explicit with what feats interact with this FoB, but i wanted to keep the language word-count down by not mentioning things like "Spring Attack" or "Vital Strike" etc...
challenge:
say a 2nd level monk attacks an adjacent foe as a standard action and hits. he should then have the choice to either take his flurry attack or his move action. if he does the former, making an allowance for that in the wording is hard to spell out, because the standard action kind of morphs into a full attack. how can this choice be expressed clearly and elegantly? (ie without using the word 'morphs'...)
I'm still a little bit confused with this, but the more I read it the more I like it.
Just to be clear: A 1st level monk who scores at least one hit this turn may make up to one additional 'flurry' attack means that if I hit with at least one attack, I can attack two more times? The wording is kind of throwing me off and I'd really like to implement this against my players before I allow it in my campaign.
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the 'flurry' attacks strike with a better bonus.
the intent is one additional attack at 1st, two at 6th, three at 11th, and four at 16th - with the caveat that at least as many additional attacks you make come after scoring as many or greater hits earlier in the same round (in which case early attacks of opportunity count!). and yes, a 'flurry' attack can qualify a subsequent 'flurry' attack, allowing for a sort of effect. this must all be done as part of a full attack action, regular or special. if a monk wants to space out the attacks as part of a moving full attack action, such as when charging or using Spring Attack, this is up to the DM, because i have not specifically written for or against this allowance. i would probably allow it.
next, an 8th level monk can make up to one extra attack as part of a single standard action (regular or special); a 16th level monk can make up to two. So yes, move 80 feet - Vital Strike - punch - kick! is a legal combo.
finally, a 16th level monk gets up to two attacks of opportunity per opportunity, whereby the 'flurry' attacks do not count against his maximum number of attacks of opportunity (normally one, or more with Combat Reflexes)
I'm digging this thread, a lot. I cant help but visualize X-Blade from Man with the Iron Fist and Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter. My players are going to love it when they get their asses handed to them, flurry of b*tch slaps from the old librarian. I'm thinking Uncle from Jackie Chan Adventures. Thanks, rainzax. Good idea, this alternate flurry.
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...especially when you top off your combo with a Stunning Fist! Wa TA!!!
credit Lore Keeper with the original idea.
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new idea. i will demonstrate with table and words. compare to standard flurry.
()
(alternate 2):
Flurry Attack Bonus:
01: +0/+0
02: +1/+1
03: +2/+2
04: +3/+3
05: +3/+3
06: +4/+4
07: +5/+5
08: +6/+6/+6
09: +6/+6/+6
10: +7/+7/+7
11: +8/+8/+8
12: +9/+9/+9
13: +9/+9/+9
14: +10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11
16: +12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12
18: +13/+13/+13/+13
19: +14/+14/+13/+13
20: +15/+15/+15/+15
(text changes in )
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make one additional attack . These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability).
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows. .
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows. .
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Here's what I did (some of you may have seen this in another thread no too long ago... LINK):
First, change FoB to read:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability).
At 8th 6th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th 11th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Then give him this ability at 1st level:
At 1st level, while the monk is unarmored (including not using a shield) and unencumbered (carrying no more than a light load), he gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and CMB with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.
This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
If an effect or ability allows a monk to use Flurry of Blows when he otherwise could not (while wearing armor, using a “non-monk” weapon, etc.), he may apply this bonus is such situations.
Note that this new ability functions any time the monk attack with US or a monk weapon, not just while using FoB; the last bit is there just so certain archetypes (like the Sohei) don't lose it when utilizing their other benefits.
The FoB table now looks like (this includes the Centered Bonus):
Level..........Non-Flurry Attack Bonus..........FoB Attack Bonus
01...........................+01..................................–01/–01
02...........................+02..................................+00/+00
03...........................+03..................................+01/+01
04...........................+04..................................+02/+02
05...........................+05..................................+03/+03
06...........................+06..................................+04/+04/– 01
07...........................+07..................................+05/+05/+ 00
08...........................+08/+03...........................+06/+06/+01/ +01
09...........................+09/+04...........................+07/+07/+02/ +02
10...........................+10/+05...........................+08/+08/+03/ +03
11...........................+11/+06...........................+09/+09/+04/ +04/–01
12...........................+12/+07...........................+10/+10/+05/ +05/+00
13...........................+13/+08...........................+11/+11/+06/ +06/+01
14...........................+14/+09...........................+12/+12/+07/ +07/+02
15...........................+15/+10/+05....................+13/+13/+08/+08 /+03/+03
16...........................+16/+11/+06....................+14/+14/+09/+09 /+04/+04
17...........................+17/+12/+07....................+15/+15/+10/+10 /+05/+05
18...........................+18/+13/+08....................+16/+16/+11/+11 /+06/+06
19...........................+19/+14/+09....................+17/+17/+12/+12 /+07/+07
20...........................+20/+15/+10....................+18/+18/+13/+13 /+08/+08
So the monk loses out on a single attack (that really had almost no chance of hitting anyway) at 16th level. He also loses a bit of Power Attack damage, but he gains a significant bonus to attack rolls when he can't flurry.
If you still don't like the -2 penalty to hit while using flurry, reduce it to -1 at 8th level, and to 0 at 15th.
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Honorable Goblin,
cool idea. this will help the monk connect with attacks or opportunity (they ought to be good at this, right?), and i like Centered Bonus's interaction with Fast Movement. but if you are going to do this, mightn't you just quit beating around the bush and go ahead and grant full BAB?
i'm looking for a way to make Flurry of Blows discreet from Two-Weapon Fighting (the -2 bugs me - starting at -1 'to hit' is stupid, i'm sorry), both in mechanics and feel, without outright (or roundaboutright) granting full BAB. so, instead of TWF, my second proposal is roughly modeled after natural attacks. lets compare a 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level monk, using Core Flurry (Cor) and my Alternate Flurry (Alt).
1st:
Cor (-1/-1)
Alt (+0/+0)
5th:
Cor (+3/+3)
Alt (+3/+3)
10th:
Cor (+8/+8/+3/+3)
Alt (+7/+7/+7)
15th:
Cor (+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3)
Alt (+11/+11/+11/+11)
20th:
Cor (+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3)
Alt (+15/+15/+15/+15)
...
here is the essential trade-off question:
does gaining one/two additional 'primary' attacks at 8th/15th level justify not only falling +1/+2/+3 behind at 9th/13th/17th level on those primary attacks but also sacrificing the one/two/three lower iterative attacks normally gained at 6th/11th/16th?
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Kazaan,
Flurry of Blows is indeed essentially the equivalent to TWF or Rapid Shot. the mechanics are almost identical. there is nothing wrong with these mechanics. they work fine.
my complaint is that FoB does not have it's own unique mechanic. it feels like a cheap knock-off. and so i am searching for a mechanic that feels different than TWF/RS, and this is why i created this thread.
so far, the consolation for my proposal above is that it works functionally similar to a natural attack. that said i have another idea.
consider a mechanic that forces the monk to move around in order to gain extra attacks. something like:
"A monk may make an additional number of attacks in a round at his full base attack bonus for each 10 feet he has moved as a standard action. This number of additional attacks may not exceed one third his monk level (minimum one additional attack)..."
Mobile Flurry:
01: +00/+00 (10 feet)
02: +01/+01
03: +02/+02
04: +03/+03
05: +03/+03
06: +04/+04/+04 (20 feet)
07: +05/+05/+05
08: +06/+06/+06
09: +06/+06/+06/+06 (30 feet)
10: +07/+07/+07/+07
11: +08/+08/+08/+08
12: +09/+09/+09/+09/+09 (40 feet)
13: +09/+09/+09/+09/+09
14: +10/+10/+10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11 (50 feet)
16: +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12
18: +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13 (60 feet)
19: +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14
20: +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15
...
overpowered looking at first, but these extra attacks will not always be available unless the monk can successfully move around the battlefield, which can be pretty easy at times, pretty tricky at other times.
thoughts?
That mechanic looks very cool, I'd like to try it out but my co-GM said we're already testing a lot of the homebrew monk fixes, so I'll have to wait until I'm behind the screen to give this a test.
I'm really interested to see how this modification works out.
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ok.
pilot five ideas together.
1) Flurry of Blows (as proposed here):
01: +00/+00
02: +01/+01
03: +02/+02
04: +03/+03
05: +03/+03
06: +04/+04
07: +05/+05
08: +06/+06/+06
09: +06/+06/+06
10: +07/+07/+07
11: +08/+08/+08
12: +09/+09/+09
13: +09/+09/+09
14: +10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11
16: +12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12
18: +13/+13/+13/+13
19: +14/+14/+13/+13
20: +15/+15/+15/+15
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make one additional attack . These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability).
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows.
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
2) Unarmed Strike: damage frozen at 1d8 (1d6 small, 1d10 large)
3) Unarmed Strike: half your monk levels count as fighter levels for weapon feats
4) Ki Strike: +1 enhancement attack/damage at 4th/7th/10th/13th/16th
5) Ki Pool: 1 ki for two additional attacks at 12th, three at 20th.
(bonus ki attacks in )
01: +00/+00
02: +01/+01
03: +02/+02
04: +03/+03/
05: +03/+03/
06: +04/+04/
07: +05/+05/
08: +06/+06/+06/
09: +06/+06/+06/
10: +07/+07/+07/
11: +08/+08/+08/
12: +09/+09/+09/
13: +09/+09/+09/
14: +10/+10/+10/
15: +11/+11/+11/+11/
16: +12/+12/+12/+12/
17: +12/+12/+12/+12/
18: +13/+13/+13/+13/
19: +14/+14/+13/+13/
20: +15/+15/+15/+15/
how does this square up with regular monk?
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mathematician bored?
Classic Monk Flurry
01: -01/-01 @1d6
02: +00/+00 @1d6
03: +01/+01 @1d6
04: +02/+02 @1d8
05: +03/+03 @1d8
06: +04/+04/-01 @1d8
07: +05/+05/+00 @1d8
08: +06/+06/+01/+01 @1d10
09: +07/+07/+02/+02 @1d10
10: +08/+08/+03/+03 @1d10
11: +09/+09/+04/+04/-01 @1d10
12: +10/+10/+05/+05/+00 @2d6
13: +11/+11/+06/+06/+01 @2d6
14: +12/+12/+07/+07/+02 @2d6
15: +13/+13/+08/+08/+03/+03 @2d6
16: +14/+14/+09/+09/+04/+04/-01 @2d8
17: +15/+15/+10/+10/+05/+05/+00 @2d8
18: +16/+16/+11/+11/+06/+06/+01 @2d8
19: +17/+17/+12/+12/+07/+07/+02 @2d8
20: +18/+18/+13/+13/+08/+08/+03 @2d10
Alternate Monk Flurry
01: +00/+00 @1d6
02: +01/+01 @1d6
03: +02/+02 @1d6
04: +03/+03 @1d8 E+1
05: +03/+03 @1d8 E+1
06: +04/+04 @1d8 E+1
07: +05/+05 @1d8 E+2
08: +06/+06/+06 @1d10 E+2
09: +06/+06/+06 @1d10 E+2
10: +07/+07/+07 @1d10 E+3
11: +08/+08/+08 @1d10 E+3
12: +09/+09/+09 @2d6 E+3
13: +09/+09/+09 @2d6 E+4
14: +10/+10/+10 @2d6 E+4
15: +11/+11/+11/+11 @2d6 E+4
16: +12/+12/+12/+12 @2d8 E+5
17: +12/+12/+12/+12 @2d8 E+5
18: +13/+13/+13/+13 @2d8 E+5
19: +14/+14/+13/+13 @2d8 E+5
20: +15/+15/+15/+15 @2d10 E+5
which monk has better DPR?
under what circumstances?
any other data analysis?
("E" means enhancement bonus to attack/damage)
(bonus Ki attack factored out - considered roughly equivalent)
why do i want to know? because i like the alternate flurry but suspect that i might have to dial it some. for example, by removing the scaling damage bonus. or maybe not?
I've often considered that flurry of blows should be more "virtual" than literaly an extra number of attacks at a -2 penalty or some such and a standard action instead of full attack. For example:
1st: 2d6 (avg 7) + enhancement + strength.
5th: 3d8 (avg 13) + enhancement + strength
10th: 4d10 (avg 22) + enhancement + strength
15th: 12d6 (avg 42) + enhancement + strength
20th: 14d10 (avg 77) + enhancement + strength
I never bothered doing DPR calculations or comparing the results for scaling ACs/BAB, and so on, mostly because no one plays a monk in my campaigns - not because they suck, which they do in many areas, but because the class doesn't fit with their favorite concepts.
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('virtual' has been taken - monk flurrying at 'virtual' full BAB for example)
so by more "virtual" do you mean "an abstraction of multiple attacks being rolled with a single d20 roll and a pile of scaling damage dice?" - this looks like what you have above. but honestly, i think a better abstraction for that would be to have the monk's 'flurry' work like an area effect attack offering a Reflex save for half. I once saw a variant conception for Whirlwind Attack that did precisely that.
i think the mathematics of the monk's 'flurry BAB' is the wonkiest pattern of numbers i've seen across all 30+ paizo classes. new attacks start at -1? really? what dice do i roll if my monk attacks with a longspear, stunning fist, and trip maneuver in the same attack routine?
the above proposal seeks to simplify the math, and provide a boost to hit with iterative attacks at the same time. if i ask you "which is a better attack routine, +7/+7/+7 or +8/+8/+3/+3?" you might cleverly respond with "it depends on the number of opponents and their ACs" to which i might pose back "based on that dependence, under what circumstances ought the monk to shine the most?" (ought being the key word here) - because, do we see the monk as the guy who is skilled at taking out mooks by the truckload - or as the guy who can give their leader a run for his money?
i feel my proposal mechanically speaks to the latter scenario.
the reason i raise the DPR question is because i want to know the upper limit.
so by more "virtual" do you mean "an abstraction of multiple attacks being rolled with a single d20 roll and a pile of scaling damage dice?" - this looks like what you have above.
Yep, that's what I meant.
but honestly, i think a better abstraction for that would be to have the monk's 'flurry' work like an area effect attack offering a Reflex save for half. I once saw a variant conception for Whirlwind Attack that did precisely that.
This is pretty much how SWSE does all area attacks, melee or otherwise, but its against a Defense score - full damage if you succeed, half if you fail. Exact same principle, but the defender rolls in your version in lieu of the attacker - or do both? The attacker to set the DC and the defender to save?
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here it is. i kind of dig the idea. maybe the 'greater' version is save for half? also, if they are saving, i would consider inverting critical hits off natural 1's (and 2's, 3's...)
if you do your 1d20+pile 'flurry' idea i suggest scaling it to 1st/6th/11th/16th because that will align the damage boost with full BAB iteratives (sorta like Vital Strike line) - maybe 2d6/4d6/6d6/8d6?
cheers
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Da'ath,
i spent the weekend thinking about your flurry concept:
(version 9):
01- Flurry 1d6 (2 foes)
02-
03- Flurry 2d6
04-
05- Flurry 3d6 (3 foes)
06-
07- Flurry 4d6
08-
09- Flurry 5d6 (4 foes)...
A monk may make a flurry of blows as a standard action. He may make an unarmed strike against any two foes he threatens, and deals 1d6 damage if he hits. This damage increases by +1d6 at every odd monk level, and he may strike an additional foe he threatens every four monk levels with the same flurry. Though the monk only rolls one attack roll per opponent, this ability actually represents the monk peppering his enemies with punches, kicks, and headbutts (etc).
When using this ability is conjunction with his fast movement ability, the monk may space out his attacks between movements however he likes, so long as he moves no further than his fast movement bonus that round (i.e. 10 feet at 3rd level, 20 feet at 6th level). This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, and he may not attack the same foe more than once per flurry.
...
what do you think?
I actually kinda like it; it'll be a while before it sees use in my Pathfinder campaign, as we're playing SWSE right now, but I do have a Tera's Kasi I'm pretty sure I can get to give it a go. Thanks!
Sounds fun.
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neat!
i kind of like it too. definitely considering it...
:
A monk of 6th level may use his flurry of blows ability against a single enemy to greater effect. He gains the Vital Strike feat. At 11th level, he gains the Improved Vital Strike feat, and at 16th level he gains the Greater Vital Strike feat.
...
too much?
I'm not sure if that is too much or not.
In SWSE, I'm using the last version you posted, but converted to SWSE mechanics: if the attack exceeds you're Reflex Defense, you take full damage; if it does not, you take half. This is modified by Evasion, of course.
Seems to work fine so far; I may use it as you take full damage in PF, half on a Reflex save, etc. - basically treating it more like an AoE spell that a normal attack.
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or maybe the switch from targeting AC to targeting Reflex (for half) can be what happens when you charge your flurry with a ki point:
A monk may expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action while using his flurry of blows ability. In lieu of rolling an attack roll, all of the monk's targets instead must make a Reflex save. If they fail this save, they take full damage from the flurry; if they succeed, they take half damage from the flurry.
or maybe the switch from targeting AC to targeting Reflex (for half) can be what happens when you charge your flurry with a ki point:
A monk may expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action while using his flurry of blows ability. In lieu of rolling an attack roll, all of the monk's targets instead must make a Reflex save. If they fail this save, they take full damage from the flurry; if they succeed, they take half damage from the flurry.
I should have clarified the SWSE mechanic: in SWSE, your Reflex Defense is equivalent to BOTH your AC and Reflex save in Pathfinder.
It doesn't change what you've suggested, just illustrates you could do either in a conversion.
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fair enough. i will hold the question in my mind about that system's reconciliation of the contributing factors of 'armor' and 'dodge' creating a single defense score called 'reflex'...
half damage on a miss is pretty bad-ass, as is being able to target a high-AC enemy's potentially-much-lower reflex save. thus the cost of 1 ki point. to boot, it can be visualized as the monk simply moving faster, which is thematically the same as the extra ki attack, which this would replace.
A monk who reaches 4th level gains a ki pool with a number of points in it equal to half his monk level plus his wisdom bonus (if any). This replenishes on a daily basis.
While the monk retains one or more points in his pool, he may make a ki strike when fighting unarmed or using a ki-sensitive weapon. He may also exhaust his ki pool to move with deadly speed and agility. By expending one point from his ki pool while flurrying, in lieu of making an attack roll, the monk may have each target of his flurry instead roll a Reflex saving throw for half damage. Alternatively, the monk may expend one ki point to increase his fast movement bonus by +20 for 1 round. Finally, he may expend one ki point to grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. All of these abilities are activated as a swift action.
Ki pool is a supernatural ability.
I am kinda been mulling over using vital strike myself, but i am also considering all damage beimg maximized During a flurry as part of ki strike.
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I am torn between these two.
it is important to note that both versions will probably be used with a monk chassis who gets Wisdom as an alternate to-hit score (similar to weapon finesse) and an in-built enhancement bonus to attack aligned with the AC Bonus ability (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5 at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th) - thus, even as both eschew virtual-full-BAB-less-two, most of the accuracy difficulties ought to be mitigated.
the "natural attack" version (8.5) is neat because it is arguably the least intensive change - how it interacts with the rest of the game is pretty straightforward. that each attack is made at the same to-hit bonus - the highest! - means less attacks but more effective ones. also, only a single number to remember. what is new below is the unarmed damage (hence 8.5 not 8.0). starting at 1d6, and progressing to 2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6 at 'dead-BAB' levels 5/9/13/17, makes each level offensively meaningful. further, the increased number of dice (rather than just die type) sets this up for the vital strike line very nicely - which i might just throw on top at levels 6/11/16.
(version 8.5):
"Natural Attack"
01: +0/+0 at 1d6
02: +1/+1
03: +2/+2
04: +3/+3
05: +3/+3 at 2d6
06: +4/+4
07: +5/+5
08: +6/+6/+6
09: +6/+6/+6 at 3d6
10: +7/+7/+7
11: +8/+8/+8
12: +9/+9/+9
13: +9/+9/+9 at 4d6
14: +10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11
16: +12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12 at 5d6
18: +13/+13/+13/+13
19: +14/+14/+14/+14
20: +15/+15/+15/+15
the "whirlwind" version (9.0), though unorthodox, has a lot of 'cool factor' going for it. to the extent that it abstracts multiple attacks means it will interact with the current rule system strangely. like it's counterpart above, the math was designed to be easy, which is a plus. finally, the idea above (upthread two posts) to target Reflex instead of AC for 1 ki point gives the monk even more options in terms of accuracy.
(version 9.0):
"Whirlwind"
01: +0 at 1d6 (2 foes)
02: +1
03: +2 at 2d6
04: +3
05: +3 at 3d6 (3 foes)
06: +4
07: +5 at 4d6
08: +6
09: +6 at 5d6 (4 foes)
10: +7
11: +8 at 6d6
12: +9
13: +9 at 7d6 (5 foes)
14: +10
15: +11 at 8d6
16: +12
17: +12 at 9d6 (all foes)
18: +13
19: +14 at 10d6
20: +15
...
which one do you folks like better, version 8 or 9?
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Flurry of Blows (Version 10)
I have altered the mathematics of flurry of blows BAB
by removing the range <-1 to +18> for <+0 to +15>
by granting the bonus attacks at 6th/11th/16th full bonus
my 20-level spread now looks like this:
1 +0/+0
2 +1/+1
3 +2/+2
4 +3/+3
5 +3/+3
6 +4/+4/+4 (three primaries!)
7 +5/+5/+5
8 +6/+6/+6/+1
9 +6/+6/+6/+1 (highest attack behind CRB monk by 1)
10 +7/+7/+7/+2
11 +8/+8/+8/+8/+3 (four primaries!)
12 +9/+9/+9/+9/+4
13 +9/+9/+9/+9/+4 (highest attack behind CRB monk by 2)
14 +10/+10/+10/+10/+5
15 +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1
16 +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+2 (five primaries!)
17 +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
18 +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 (highest attack behind CRB monk by 3)
19 +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4
20 +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
...
math analysis: do the benefits (increased # of primaries) outweigh the drawbacks (-1 to primary attacks at 9th, 13th, 17th) overall? too much? etc.
cheers.
I have no idea how the math would work out, but that looks like the monks turn will take forever! (at high levels anyways)
I'm one of those rare people who is actually glad no one takes the improved and greater TWF feats because it takes FOREVER to resolve their turn.
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the number of attacks is the same (two to start, topping out at seven). and, at 20th, instead of having four different number magnitudes (+18/+13/+8/+3), there are three (+15/+10/+5)...
which is to say, this is the regular 3/4 BAB spread but with four extra full-bonus attacks (at 1/6/11/16) tacked on.
Flurry of Blows (Version 10)
I have altered the mathematics of flurry of blows BAB
by removing the range <-1 to +18> for <+0 to +15>
by granting the bonus attacks at 6th/11th/16th full bonus
my 20-level spread now looks like this:
** spoiler omitted **
...math analysis: do the benefits (increased # of primaries) outweigh the drawbacks (-1 to primary attacks at 9th, 13th, 17th) overall? too much? etc.
cheers.
OK, I can tell you because I have crunched the numbers many times in monk threads for the last few years how this works.
Flurry of blows fails because it's a flurry of misses.
Now let's take level 20, and a fight against a tough enemy. This is the kind of enemy that your party fighter's primary attack hits 50% of the time. Now his attack is +5 BAB up on your monk's, and assuming a best case scenario of equal hitting stats (the monk will usually be behind a little) and equal enhancement (the monk is almost always behind on this one) the fighter still gets another +5 from Greater Weapon Focus and weapon training that the monk doesn't get. That makes the fighter +10 to hit better than your monk is. So at target the fighter's first attack hits 50% of the time your monk is only going to hit on a 20.
The fighter will hit 50%+25%+5%+5% = 85% hits in one round, your monk will hit 5% x 7 = 35% in one round. Most likely, he'll get a hit in most rounds, your monk will roll buckets of dice to hit one round in three. If your highest BAB was +18 instead of +15, that would give your monk a 15% chance of a hit with his 5 attacks for 75%+5%+5% = 85% hits in one turn. However, in DPR terms the fighter is probably still streets ahead as his one attack is probably dishing out far more hurt than one of a monk's.
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Dabbler,
Thank you for looking at the mathematical upper limit. I have never played the game there, so have no practical experience to draw upon.
Let's say I were to attempt to keep what I have written, which I think would work most of the time through most of the tiers of play (an assumption), but interject with some way to recoup the 5-point gap in BAB with some kind of stackable bonus. What bonus types would be viable here?
Insight?
For example, would changing the monk's AC Bonus from a dodge bonus to AC to an insight bonus to attack and AC be a useful change? Or am I missing some Big Six magic item that wouldn't stack because of the CR game assumptions already accounting for that?
(ignoring that ability score and enhancement discrepancies for now)
You're welcome!
I think an insight bonus would be the quick-fix, using the AC bonus as the template, or else a weapon-training type bonus.
When I did my "monk fix" of little tweaks I toyed with the idea, but found that the +18 maximum, with other tweaks addressing MAD (monk can use wisdom-to-hit with monk weapons & unarmed strikes), ki-strike (giving it an enhancement bonus), combined with the extra attacks from flurry of blows worked very well. So far play-tested to level 13 with no major issues.