Best build to become a Worm That Walks?


Advice


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The Worm That Walks is a very cool template that doesn't seem to get a lot of love from theorycrafters. Can we fix that? Here is the WTW description. Let's pop the hood and look at it a bit.

Worm that Walks discussion:

Perception -- the WtW gains darkvision, blindsight, and a +8 racial bonus on Perception. That pretty much screams "ambush predator" to me. In tactical terms, you want stuff that will ruin opponents senses -- darkness and clouds. In build terms, don't be a race with darkvision, since you're going to get it anyway.

Armor -- The WTW loses any natural armor bonus the base creature had, but gains an insight bonus to its AC equal to its Wisdom bonus (minimum of +2). This suggests one of two things: either build from a Wis-based caster, or make Wis a dump stat (since you'll get the +2 anyway).

DR and fast healing -- DR 15/- and fast healing equal to your CR (character level+1, usually).

No anatomy -- Can't be critted, can't be flanked.

Partial spell immunity -- WTWs are immune to any physical spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate). Mind-affecting effects that target single creatures function normally against a worm that walks. A WTW takes half again as much damage (+50%) from damaging area effects, such as fireball and splash weapons. Immune to disease, paralysis poison and sleep.

Okay, so what's good against a WTW? Area effect spells and mental stuff, basically. In tactical terms, that means take out casters who have these first. In build terms, it means a build with good defenses against these things.

You also have squirming embrace and your cool discorporate/swarm ability. Let those bide for the moment.

Finally, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +8 racial bonuses on Perception, Sense Motive and Stealth, and Diehard as a bonus feat. All very nice, though they don't give us strong indications as to how to build.

So where does this take us? I think in two directions: the Melee Worm, and the Pure Caster. The titles are pretty descriptive; the Melee Worm closes in and uses its Squirming Grasp combined with touch and short-range spells, while the Caster simply messes you up with magic. The Caster is probably more powerful, but the Melee Worm is competitive (especially at lower levels) and very flavorful.

There are some common elements. You want to start with races and classes whose abilities don't overlap with the Worm's. So, avoid races that get darkvision. You'll get natural armor, DR, and a bunch of immunities (poison, sleep, etc.) so don't pick builds that have these. On the other hand, you're painfully vulnerable to mental attacks and area affect spells, so anything that gives you bonuses against these (or energy resistance) is good.

So, for example, an aberrant sorceror might seem a good, flavorful choice as a starting point for a WTW. But two of the sorceror's bloodline powers (unusual anatomy and the capstone aberrant form) are subsumed in the WTW template; you get these powers anyway. So this bloodline, already somewhat sketchy, is probably suboptimal for a WTW build. Similarly, the Necromancy arcane school for wizards gives you blindsight; this doesn't rule the school out (since the other powers are pretty nice) but it does mean you're basically throwing away your 8th level specialist power.

At low and middle levels, the Worm's Dr 15/- is going to make him unusually blase about melee for a caster. At high levels, it won't help so much -- high level melee types can dish out a ridiculous amount of damage. The main difference there will be that you can ignore ranged weapon attacks, meaning that the Caster Worm only has to worry about keeping the fighter types at bay while picking off the dangerous casters (and any paladins who might be present) with spells.

The Worm's excellent perception and high stealth suggest something that spots you first and prepares an ambush, which in turn suggests lots of buff spells on the menu. Meanwhile the +4 Dex means +2 to ranged touch attacks...

Anyway. Thoughts?

Doug M.


So what is it that you intend to use this information for? Because I just imagined someone doing a Prestige Class for casters that eventually turns said person into a Worm that Walks. It would be the Vermin equivalent of Dragon Disciple or Agent of the Grave, the former turning you (in a sense) into a half-dragon while the latter prepares the caster for undeath (most likely either as a lich or a vampire). Also, you do realize that there's no single ritual or spell that can turn a person into a Worm the Walks in Golarion, right? Acquiring the template is a bit harder than "talk to man X about ritual Y" and such, though priests of Kyuss might know how to pull such things off in the world of Greyhawk.

Edit! My apologies, I just realized you're asking for a build. I sadly cannot help with that, so I'll just leave a dot here.


Icyshadow wrote:
So what is it that you intend to use this information for? Because I just imagined someone doing a Prestige Class for casters that eventually turns said person into a Worm that Walks. It would be the Vermin equivalent of Dragon Disciple or Agent of the Grave, the former turning you (in a sense) into a half-dragon while the latter prepares the caster for undeath (most likely either as a lich or a vampire). Also, you do realize that there's no single ritual or spell that can turn a person into a Worm the Walks in Golarion, right? Acquiring the template is a bit harder than "talk to man X about ritual Y" and such, though priests of Kyuss might know how to pull such things off in the world of Greyhawk.

I have long wished for a prestige class that does this. I've always wanted to play a WtW.

-Kcinlive


Icyshadow wrote:


Edit! My apologies, I just realized you're asking for a build. I sadly cannot help with that, so I'll just leave a dot here.

Yeah, it's just theorycrafting. (Though sometimes a build can be so compelling that you simply have to try it in your campaign.) Really two questions: what races and classes/archetypes/domains/bloodlines/whatever would go best with this, and then what really interesting builds could you leverage from that?

Doug M.


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What challenge rating are you looking for?
I could see a pretty horrific Rogue-2/Inquisitor-11+ with Evasion & Stalwart being pretty a pretty horrific opponent.

-TimD


12th level / CR 13 seems just about right, actually.

That build sounds interesting! Say more, tell how.

Doug M.


Because I'd been thinking of a Monk 2/Cleric 10 as a build for a Melee Worm. 20 Wis would give him +10 AC at all times, and that's before adding other stuff on. And combining unarmed attacks with Stunning Fist and Squirming Embrace seems promising.

Doug M.


Sadly, I'm running short on time, but will be happy to post more details on my random thought of...

CR 15 LE Tiefling (Qlipppoth Spawn) Rogue 2 / Inquisitor (Preacher?) 12 with Domain of Travel (Exploration).

... on Sunday or Monday.

-TimD


The overuse of the word "horrific" encounter end-boss inspired by this thread.
I meant to go and pull all of my campaign-specific stuff out of the stats, but never got around to it and just remembered that I never actually posted it here.
Bit late, but better than never, right?
... right?

Though now I'm tempted to see what other... er, bad, things I can build with the ACG, I must admit...


Just to play off the dex and con bonuses a magus or a swashbuckler. Swashbuckler gets evasion at 11, but Magus gets better fort and will saves.


How about sacred fist of rovagug for a melee WtW? Seems like it'd be a good NPC villain but not an over the top caster.

Scarab Sages

This thread was not what I was hoping it to be. :/


Emperor Worm wrote:
This thread was not what I was hoping it to be. :/

Yeah it kind of died earlier last night but I so love the WtW that I'll post a build tomorrow.

Dark Archive

Now I truly think the Worm that Walks template is probably the best ever choice for an arcane caster it does have a huge issue with it's discorporate power.
On the probable chance that a WTW's is ever forced or chooses to Discorporate that creature can never come back. Ever.

There are several major problems with the power as written.

discorporate wrote:
Discorporate (Su): A worm that walks can collapse into a shapeless swarm of worms as a free action. All held, worn, and carried items fall and its Strength score drops to 1. The worm that walks functions as a true swarm while discorporated, with a reach of 0 feet (its space remains unchanged). While discorporated, the worm that walks loses all of its defensive abilities and gains all of the standard swarm traits. It loses its slam attacks and all special abilities and special attacks, but can make a swarm attack that deals damage equal to its engulf attack. A worm that walks can reform into its true form (including equipping all gear in reach) as a full-round action as long as it has at least 1 hit point.

While discorporated, the worm that walks loses all of its defensive abilities and gains all of the standard swarm traits.

A. This means as soon as it is pushed into this form it's Intelligence drops to - (not 0 but an actual dash since it no longer has that attribute) so it can never choose to re-incorporate itself.

B. On top of that a WTW who discorporate lose all their Defensive abilities so the fast healing goes away preventing it from healing itself in any reasonable amount of time as well as increasing all the damage it takes (no DR or immunities from the template).

C. The Diehard feat literally does NOTHING for the WTW. Per the ability score rules "Mindless creatures have no feats or skills". This is a wasted feat and even if it were somehow allowed to work then you have to deal with:

D. Remember,

Quote:
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up

so it's no longer a swarm so it loses what little control or survivability it had.

Now being a comatose, non-swarm of worms who can never choose to reform and the character is pretty much worse then dead.

Overall the Discorporate ability is a one way ticket to oblivion and should never be used. EVER.


Not sure where you're getting that their Int would drop to - as that is not a swarm trait (though it's often a trait of the creatures that make up a swarm).

Their immunities even call out that they are vulnerable to mind-affecting effects if they have intelligence / hivemind...

swarm sub type from the PRD:

Swarm Subtype: A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below.

Swarm HD Swarm Base Damage
1–5 1d6
6–10 2d6
11–15 3d6
16–20 4d6
21 or more 5d6

A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm. Some swarms also have acid, blood drain, poison, or other special attacks in addition to normal damage.

Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.

Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.

-TimD


Bump. Watching intently.


After playing a magus WtW through books 3-5 of Serpent's Skull (long story...), I can attest to the melee capabilities, especially with a finesse build.

If there's a way to get Evasion (either a dip in another class, or just getting a ring), it's neigh invincible.


TimD wrote:

Not sure where you're getting that their Int would drop to - as that is not a swarm trait (though it's often a trait of the creatures that make up a swarm).

Monkey swarms have an intelligence score of 2.


If a Worm That Walks can't be critted (either as normal or if they pick up the swarm subtype by discorporating), then I think that means they're completely unkillable at 10th Mythic tier. Haven't checked all the possibilities yet, though.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps a Wyrm that walks? A 8 levels of dragon disciple. Might as well abuse the static bonuses you receive from the template and the PrC.

This also gives you the option of 9th level spells and the ability to do what ever you please. Gives you the chance to use eldritch heritage feats to make up for your spell list.


The problem with wtw is that your sex life is filled with icks and eeks.

Sovereign Court

I like the idea of a Worm that Walks Scarred Witch to stack that con. Works well with a half-orc since you will still keep the orc blood trait.

Dark Archive

TimD wrote:

Not sure where you're getting that their Int would drop to - as that is not a swarm trait (though it's often a trait of the creatures that make up a swarm).

Their immunities even call out that they are vulnerable to mind-affecting effects if they have intelligence / hivemind...

** spoiler omitted **...

It's not the swarm type that removes their Int, it's the vermin type that does it.

Vermin Traits wrote:

Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Proficient with no armor.
Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.

As a normal Worm that walks it has a defensive ability referred to as it's hive mind which lets it think and continue to function as an individual. When it discorporates it loses all of it's defensive abilities which includes it's hive mind ability so it goes back to the default for it's type which is Vermin (it specifically doesn't get the swarm type, it stays vermin) and all vermin have the mindless trait.

A WTW who discorporates loses it's Int score and personality and becomes a non-threat.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
TimD wrote:

Not sure where you're getting that their Int would drop to - as that is not a swarm trait (though it's often a trait of the creatures that make up a swarm).

Their immunities even call out that they are vulnerable to mind-affecting effects if they have intelligence / hivemind...

** spoiler omitted **...

It's not the swarm type that removes their Int, it's the vermin type that does it.

Vermin Traits wrote:
Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

I disagree (and bolded part of your quote above as to why). The intelligence is part of it's type, not a defensive ability of the worm-that-walks, so wouldn't be lost upon discorporation...

Worm-that-walks Bestiary 2 entry wrote:


Type: The base creature's type changes to vermin. It gains the augmented subtype. Do not recalculate BAB, saves, or skill ranks. Worms that walk are intelligent and do not possess the standard mindless trait of most vermin. Note that while a worm that walks has the ability to discorperate into a swarm, and while its body is made up of countless wriggling worms, it does not itself gain the swarm subtype.

-TimD


Discorporation would be effectively suicide if this were the case. That seems unlikely.

Evasion is available from a ring. At 25,000 gp it's not cheap, but most WTW builds are high enough level to make it plausible.

Doug M.


I would go magus personally but they are my favorite class. Would the WtW thing apply to wildshape because that would be fun to play a Druid. Not sure about the race thing though I would pick what ever benefits the class most or for flavor.


Just a quick thread-jack, but how does the math work out for the 150% damage swarm trait vs. the 50% damage of Evasion. Does the Evasion trump the vulnerability? Do you split the 150% to 75%?


Joex The Pale wrote:
Just a quick thread-jack, but how does the math work out for the 150% damage swarm trait vs. the 50% damage of Evasion. Does the Evasion trump the vulnerability? Do you split the 150% to 75%?

Yeah you take 75% damage instead of 150% on a successful save.

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