paizo.com Recent Posts in Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)paizo.com Recent Posts in Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)2013-11-07T06:44:00Z2013-11-07T06:44:00ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Neadenil Edam (alias of Carbunkle Squirrelbane)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#382013-11-13T22:56:20Z2013-11-13T22:56:20Z<p>Actually power leveling in EVE involves building up enough ISK and then checking the character bazaar for a more advanced character then your current one at a suitable price.</p>
<p>Good characters with advanced skills can sell for tens of billions of ISK (hundreds or even thousands of real world dollars if you funded the purchase by buying PLEX for real cash)</p>Actually power leveling in EVE involves building up enough ISK and then checking the character bazaar for a more advanced character then your current one at a suitable price.
Good characters with advanced skills can sell for tens of billions of ISK (hundreds or even thousands of real world dollars if you funded the purchase by buying PLEX for real cash)Neadenil Edam (alias of Carbunkle Squirrelbane)2013-11-13T22:56:20ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Lifedragnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#372013-11-11T20:41:56Z2013-11-11T20:41:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryan Dancey wrote:</div><blockquote> You might find yourself compelled to master certain abilities to gain admission to some social group. Those will always be "and" choices, not "either/or" choices. That should take the sting out. </blockquote><p>I certainly expect some pressure to Specialize first and then Generalize. The Fighter 12 is usually going to bring more to the table than the Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Cleric 2/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Druid 2. My hope is more that there is enough flexibility to splash into other roles and stay competitive such as the Fighter 12 is not so clear-cut a choice over the Fighter 10/Cleric 2.
<p>And yes, I know traditional class levels aren't necessarily a thing, but they serve as a good abstraction.</p>Ryan Dancey wrote:You might find yourself compelled to master certain abilities to gain admission to some social group. Those will always be "and" choices, not "either/or" choices. That should take the sting out.
I certainly expect some pressure to Specialize first and then Generalize. The Fighter 12 is usually going to bring more to the table than the Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Cleric 2/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Druid 2. My hope is more that there is enough flexibility to splash into other roles and stay...Lifedragn2013-11-11T20:41:56ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Ryan Danceyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#362013-11-11T17:31:27Z2013-11-11T17:31:27Z<p>You might find yourself compelled to master certain abilities to gain admission to some social group. Those will always be "and" choices, not "either/or" choices. That should take the sting out.</p>You might find yourself compelled to master certain abilities to gain admission to some social group. Those will always be "and" choices, not "either/or" choices. That should take the sting out.Ryan Dancey2013-11-11T17:31:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Nihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#352013-11-11T16:55:14Z2013-11-11T16:55:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Morbis wrote:</div><blockquote>... the chances of cookie cutter builds for PvP not appearing are slim.</blockquote><p>This is really only a problem "end game". Most sites dedicated to "best builds" don't even bother posting mid-level builds.Morbis wrote:... the chances of cookie cutter builds for PvP not appearing are slim.
This is really only a problem "end game". Most sites dedicated to "best builds" don't even bother posting mid-level builds.Nihimon2013-11-11T16:55:14ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Bluddwolfhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#342013-11-11T16:49:16Z2013-11-11T16:49:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nihimon wrote:</div><blockquote> To my mind, that problem is the inevitable result of any system where there is any kind of maximum number of points that can be applied to a character build. The openness of character advancement is one of my very favorite things about PFO, for this very reason. </blockquote><p>Even with an open system, there will still be some builds that are better suited for PVP than other builds. Once those "better builds" are discovered, the min maxers will shift to them without any regard for anything else in the game. They will play the game to "win", period!
<p>You should read Morbis' post, everything he says is not only true, it will come to pass in OE.</p>Nihimon wrote:To my mind, that problem is the inevitable result of any system where there is any kind of maximum number of points that can be applied to a character build. The openness of character advancement is one of my very favorite things about PFO, for this very reason.
Even with an open system, there will still be some builds that are better suited for PVP than other builds. Once those "better builds" are discovered, the min maxers will shift to them without any regard for anything...Bluddwolf2013-11-11T16:49:16ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Nihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#332013-11-11T16:36:01Z2013-11-11T16:36:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lifedragn wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Hardin Steele wrote:</div><blockquote>Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em... Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right."</blockquote>... someone asked me "what build are you using?"... When I told them I didn't have any and that I just went naturally based on how I feel they suited the character, they acted like I was an idiot.</blockquote><p>I really liked that quote from Hardin Steele as well. To my mind, that problem is the inevitable result of any system where there is any kind of maximum number of points that can be applied to a character build. The openness of character advancement is one of my very favorite things about PFO, for this very reason.Lifedragn wrote:Hardin Steele wrote:Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em... Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right."
... someone asked me "what build are you using?"... When I told them I didn't have any and that I just went naturally based on how I feel they suited the character, they acted like I was an idiot.I really liked that quote from Hardin Steele as well. To my mind, that problem is the...Nihimon2013-11-11T16:36:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Morbis (alias of Martin Swan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#322013-11-11T16:49:31Z2013-11-11T16:33:50Z<p>I honestly think that you are going to be disappointed, then. A lot of players play games to win. They don't really care about the means through which they get that win, they just care that at the end of the day they are the better player. As such, optimised builds will always become the most prevelent. Combined with the fact that the developers have said that balance isn't their number one priority (a mistake, in my mind), the chances of cookie cutter builds for PvP not appearing are slim.</p>
<p>This is the nature of competitive gaming. You don't play the game you want to play, you play the game that you are given. People who embrace that attitude tend to dominate. You can feel free to ignore the metagame, but you probably won't be competitive. The cookie cutters builds tend to exist for a reason. They tend to be the most effective at what they aim to do.</p>
<p>It doesn't matter how gradual the power curve is. Even at the very start of the game, if polearms are perceived to do 5% more damage than daggers, the majority of competitive players will use polearms.</p>I honestly think that you are going to be disappointed, then. A lot of players play games to win. They don't really care about the means through which they get that win, they just care that at the end of the day they are the better player. As such, optimised builds will always become the most prevelent. Combined with the fact that the developers have said that balance isn't their number one priority (a mistake, in my mind), the chances of cookie cutter builds for PvP not appearing are slim.
...Morbis (alias of Martin Swan)2013-11-11T16:33:50ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Lifedragnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#312013-11-11T16:25:25Z2013-11-11T16:25:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hardin Steele wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:</div><blockquote>... it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is...</blockquote><p>Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em, with skills, talents or whatever tool was in place to pick your abilities. Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right."
<p>"Like hell! I'm set up the way I want to be set up and if you don't like it, go play with yourself!"</p>
<p>Always hated that. Some tool telling me my talent tree wasn't optimized. If that is something that must be done to be competitive, the games mechanics have failed to provide that player with a value.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>I feel you here. I was playing WOW for a good two years before someone asked me "what build are you using?" and proceeded to rattle off a handful of named builds from min-max websites as my options. When I told them I didn't have any and that I just went naturally based on how I feel they suited the character, they acted like I was an idiot.
<p>And then the game's design gradually morphed to expect the optimized builds and basically ruined the point of even having talent trees because everyone had to be cookie cutter or no groups would except them for raiding, which they finally realized with the last expansion I think and completely retooled the talent system.</p>
<p>I expect some min-maxing to occur in PFO, but hopefully the power curve is gradual enough that 50% of the population doesn't use the same build.</p>Hardin Steele wrote:Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:... it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is...
Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em, with skills, talents or whatever tool was in place to pick your abilities. Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right." "Like hell! I'm set up the way I want to be set...Lifedragn2013-11-11T16:25:25ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Nihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#302013-11-11T15:16:02Z2013-11-11T15:16:02Z<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation_XVII" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">No man is an island</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKlSVNxLB-A" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">I Am a Rock</a>. I am an island.</p>No man is an island.
I Am a Rock. I am an island.Nihimon2013-11-11T15:16:02ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Beinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#292013-11-10T19:51:13Z2013-11-10T19:51:13Z<p>There is a worthy argument in favor of independence that <i>should</i> be right, yet in many game systems is not. It is a very sad state that players are compelled to invariably depend on others.</p>
<p>Urging that the viability of solo play should be designed for is not anti-social it is pro-individual.</p>
<p>Would you rather relate to an independent, self-sufficient equal or a dependent social slave?</p>There is a worthy argument in favor of independence that should be right, yet in many game systems is not. It is a very sad state that players are compelled to invariably depend on others.
Urging that the viability of solo play should be designed for is not anti-social it is pro-individual.
Would you rather relate to an independent, self-sufficient equal or a dependent social slave?Being2013-11-10T19:51:13ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Hardin Steelehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#282013-11-11T15:09:22Z2013-11-10T19:42:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:</div><blockquote>... it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is...</blockquote><p>Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em, with skills, talents or whatever tool was in place to pick your abilities. Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right."
<p>"Like hell! I'm set up the way I want to be set up and if you don't like it, go play with yourself!"</p>
<p>Always hated that. Some tool telling me my talent tree wasn't optimized. If that is something that must be done to be competitive, the games mechanics have failed to provide that player with a value.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">randomwalker wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Proxima Sin wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, yes it would...</blockquote><p>But making a character and then <i>not playing</i> it for the first two months (paying cash and getting xp without playing the game) is ok?
<p>Disclaimer: This is a highly hypothetical situtation, so I'm just trying on some ideas. I'm not in favor of xp-for-cash. </blockquote><p>XP rush potions, or XP boosters should not be used in a game like PFO where the XP system is designed to reward long term loyalty. If you want to earn XPs, pay the rate and be patient. I CAN see a reason to allow a player to stop paying for XP gains and they could continue to play for a nominal fee in order to keep the game populated and provide ongoing content, but even that will have issues, as longterm players could get a good set up in 5 years and never pay another penny. Not a win for GW.Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:... it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is...
Reminds me of all the times I had my character just the way I liked 'em, with skills, talents or whatever tool was in place to pick your abilities. Then someone looks you over and says "You need to change this or that...you are not set up right." "Like hell! I'm set up the way I want to be set up and if you don't...Hardin Steele2013-11-10T19:42:17ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Xeenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#272013-11-10T19:28:33Z2013-11-10T19:28:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">randomwalker wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Proxima Sin wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, yes it would...</blockquote><p>But making a character and then <i>not playing</i> it for the first two months (paying cash and getting xp without playing the game) is ok?
<p>Disclaimer: This is a highly hypothetical situtation, so I'm just trying on some ideas. I'm not in favor of xp-for-cash. </blockquote><p>Yes, in a time based skill game it is required. You cannot grind up your xp, it comes through time... and in some cases at the high end you may need a months worth of xp for a skill.randomwalker wrote:Proxima Sin wrote: Yes, yes it would...
But making a character and then not playing it for the first two months (paying cash and getting xp without playing the game) is ok? Disclaimer: This is a highly hypothetical situtation, so I'm just trying on some ideas. I'm not in favor of xp-for-cash. Yes, in a time based skill game it is required. You cannot grind up your xp, it comes through time... and in some cases at the high end you may need a months worth of xp for a skill.Xeen2013-11-10T19:28:33ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)randomwalkerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#262013-11-10T19:15:51Z2013-11-10T19:15:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Proxima Sin wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, yes it would...</blockquote><p>But making a character and then <i>not playing</i> it for the first two months (paying cash and getting xp without playing the game) is ok?
<p>Disclaimer: This is a highly hypothetical situtation, so I'm just trying on some ideas. I'm not in favor of xp-for-cash.</p>Proxima Sin wrote:Yes, yes it would...
But making a character and then not playing it for the first two months (paying cash and getting xp without playing the game) is ok? Disclaimer: This is a highly hypothetical situtation, so I'm just trying on some ideas. I'm not in favor of xp-for-cash.randomwalker2013-11-10T19:15:51ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Proxima Sinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#252013-11-10T16:01:48Z2013-11-10T06:31:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">randomwalker wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I suppose GW can't and shouldn't completely close the door.</p>
<p>If, in two years time, GW could make good business selling 'starting packages' allowing us to start new characters with a few months of xp, - would that really be so bad?...</blockquote><p>Yes, yes it would. First off a person that joined the first day of EE couldn't buy that package according to your post so that is treating players unequally for access to items from the cash shop.
<p>Second, if you start playing later, were "born" later in rp terms I guess, you don't know as much and can't do as much as people who have been around longer. Everywhere you go in any times there are people that have been around longer and can do more than you, and eventually there are people that haven't been around less and can't do as much as you. That's an important game feature in a pvp mmo.</p>
<p>Selling make-up time packages devalues the time put in by other players in a game centered around inter-character activity and would tick off many people even more than overpriced monocles, I think.</p>randomwalker wrote:I suppose GW can't and shouldn't completely close the door.
If, in two years time, GW could make good business selling 'starting packages' allowing us to start new characters with a few months of xp, - would that really be so bad?...
Yes, yes it would. First off a person that joined the first day of EE couldn't buy that package according to your post so that is treating players unequally for access to items from the cash shop. Second, if you start playing later, were...Proxima Sin2013-11-10T06:31:58ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Keovarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#242013-11-10T04:44:04Z2013-11-10T04:19:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:</div><blockquote>But it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is. If I would create a game, I would create it based on a system you can only play, not metaplay. It might just be ideal, but that's where I draw my ideas from: from idealism. </blockquote><p>I think metagaming and min-maxing are different things.
<p>Metagaming would be like deciding to stock up on silver arrows because the module has "moon" in the title. A cash shop or even subscriptions are metagame elements because out-of-game resources are being used to affect something in-game, but MMOs are a business with a constant overhead.</p>
<p>Min-maxing is often just a natural result of the GM not spending equal time on different sorts of challenges. If everything ends up as a fight, you can expect to get characters who are combat specialists. Worse yet, if you use the mechanics to resolve physical stuff, but ignore them when there's an intellectual or social challenge (like judging the results of diplomacy on what the player says rather than the character's skill), players can safely make their characters mentally disabled without consequence, for the sake of a small advantage in hitting things. </p>
<p>In a game which includes modifiers for everything, players are going to stack them. If it's a matter of life & death, it even makes sense from the characters' perspective to do whatever they can to be more effective at surviving. There are games like Fiasco which step away from stats to focus completely on narrative, but you're swimming against the tide to expect that in a game which traces its lineage back to miniature wargaming.</p>Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:But it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is. If I would create a game, I would create it based on a system you can only play, not metaplay. It might just be ideal, but that's where I draw my ideas from: from idealism.
I think metagaming and min-maxing are different things. Metagaming would be like deciding to stock up on silver arrows because the module has...Keovar2013-11-10T04:19:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)randomwalkerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#232013-11-08T21:24:21Z2013-11-08T20:33:28Z<p>I suppose GW can't and shouldn't completely close the door.</p>
<p>If, in two years time, GW could make good business selling 'starting packages' allowing us to start new characters with a few months of xp, - would that really be so bad? (for example if the game is seen as great for veterans but hard for new players to get into)</p>
<p>Selling option to jump ahead of the crowd should be a no-no. The option to start out slightly less long behind might not be an abomination unto mankind, but is in any case not relevant in the next 12 months or so. </p>
<p>but xp potions in the cash shop: no thanks!</p>I suppose GW can't and shouldn't completely close the door.
If, in two years time, GW could make good business selling 'starting packages' allowing us to start new characters with a few months of xp, - would that really be so bad? (for example if the game is seen as great for veterans but hard for new players to get into)
Selling option to jump ahead of the crowd should be a no-no. The option to start out slightly less long behind might not be an abomination unto mankind, but is in any case...randomwalker2013-11-08T20:33:28ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Proxima Sinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#222013-11-08T18:17:42Z2013-11-08T18:17:42Z<p>For the record I'm hoping the answer is no as well for this game I was just curious for confirmation of that impression.</p>
<p>And faster xp gain is NOT okay to sell in the cash shop.</p>For the record I'm hoping the answer is no as well for this game I was just curious for confirmation of that impression.
And faster xp gain is NOT okay to sell in the cash shop.Proxima Sin2013-11-08T18:17:42ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Urmanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#212013-11-08T14:30:55Z2013-11-08T14:30:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">George Velez wrote:</div><blockquote><p>2 - there is a link (somewhere) that details how GW is aware of the power curve between new and veteran players, and how they will make acquiring and retaining new players a vital part of an settlements development.
</p>
</blockquote><p>We have been told, multiple times, that settlements will be 1000s of characters. Heck, a settlement might have as many member as some MMOs have players. The veterans may get there first, but settlements are going to need to recruit and retain new members (often a company at a time). Once they're inside the settlement, I think that time, interest, and capability will matter - those that prove able will get promoted inside a settlement. Or they'll go to a settlement that values them.George Velez wrote:2 - there is a link (somewhere) that details how GW is aware of the power curve between new and veteran players, and how they will make acquiring and retaining new players a vital part of an settlements development.
We have been told, multiple times, that settlements will be 1000s of characters. Heck, a settlement might have as many member as some MMOs have players. The veterans may get there first, but settlements are going to need to recruit and retain new members (often...Urman2013-11-08T14:30:55ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)George Velezhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#202013-11-08T13:49:53Z2013-11-08T13:49:53Z<p>Good topic to think about, and it draws on elements from at least 3 other active treads.</p>
<p>My ( short) views: </p>
<p>1 - anything that let's you accelerate training time from the "gain XP over time" model, regardless of intention, will be abused and is definitely pay to win.</p>
<p>2 - there is a link (somewhere) that details how GW is aware of the power curve between new and veteran players, and how they will make acquiring and retaining new players a vital part of an settlements development.</p>
<p>3 - unlike theme parks you don't have a fixed amount of classes that you take from level one to max, move on, and start again with leveling a new class. As a classes system, PFO doesn't force you to need multiple alts, mains and accounts to experience what the game has to offer.</p>
<p>4- there are many valid concerns from many new to MMO players and played every MMO under the sun players which have yet to be addressed by GW, just give them some time as this game is still in early stages of development. </p>
<p>5 - more to say, but really can't type well on an iPad. :)</p>Good topic to think about, and it draws on elements from at least 3 other active treads.
My ( short) views:
1 - anything that let's you accelerate training time from the "gain XP over time" model, regardless of intention, will be abused and is definitely pay to win.
2 - there is a link (somewhere) that details how GW is aware of the power curve between new and veteran players, and how they will make acquiring and retaining new players a vital part of an settlements development.
3 - unlike...George Velez2013-11-08T13:49:53ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Hobs the Shorthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#192013-11-08T11:00:24Z2013-11-08T11:00:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Keovar wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>Then there's the concern that if the game becomes too cliquish, it could have a harder time retaining new players, and that means we all lose. We don't yet know how the culture of the game will shape up, whether raw numbers will be so important that 'newbies' will become a highly-contested resource (of sorts), or whether a lean team of old guard vets will be able to accomplish plenty without 'noobs' in their way. I would guess GW will skew towards the "warm bodies" end of the spectrum, since that's probably better for business.</blockquote><p>As I think you can tell from much of what I plan to do in PFO and the topic of my blog on Gobbocast, I am very much concerned with valuing new players and helping them to make good in any game I play. I too worry that veteran players may be me at such an advantage that they do not need new players. There were times in Ultima Online where it seemed the maxed out, 7-time grandmaster players had no use for hardly anything the new player was capable of doing. I also see in games like Darkfall, clans that will not even consider recruiting people below a certain amount of prowess. However, I see overcoming these hurdles as both our job as a community and GW's task to design a game where settlements, to be successful and competitive, will always be starving for new blood. I do not think buying your way to equal is the proper course for dealing with these potential problems.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Keovar wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Still, it occurs to me that accelerated catch-up training would make it easier to replace a banned account, and that's a downside I consider more significant than the usual "but I got here first!" sense of entitlement that's the typical sentiment driving arguments against equalization systems. </blockquote><p>I teach in an upper-middle class district where I deal far too much with students coming in with an over-inflated sense of entitlement, so I can assure you, entitlement was not the sentiment driving my argument against equalization systems. Rather, I believe in not devaluing time spent, commitment, and hard work (though, granted, with a time based skill gain system, it might not be all that hard...not like "X" hours of actually grinding exp). I just tend to chafe at the idea of allowing the ability to buy your way to success. It's the same reason I am adamantly opposed to selling anything in a cash shop that provides an actual mechanical advantage in game.
<p>Perhaps I'm just being old and grumpy...I grew up with the idea of you get what you work for, you have to put in your time to earn the perks, and you wait your turn. As you can imagine, watching someone pay the doorman to take cuts in front of the people who were in line first sits about as well with me as would watching newly arrived player "A" sprint ahead in experience of month old player "B" simply because he has the cash to buy his way forward and "B" does not.</p>
<p>Again, I am not characterizing you as a person who would wish to see any of these things happen. I'm merely stating my position (and potential grumpiness).</p>Keovar wrote:Then there's the concern that if the game becomes too cliquish, it could have a harder time retaining new players, and that means we all lose. We don't yet know how the culture of the game will shape up, whether raw numbers will be so important that 'newbies' will become a highly-contested resource (of sorts), or whether a lean team of old guard vets will be able to accomplish plenty without 'noobs' in their way. I would guess GW will skew towards the "warm bodies" end of the...Hobs the Short2013-11-08T11:00:24ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Aeioun Plainsweedhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#182013-11-08T10:53:12Z2013-11-08T10:53:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Keovar wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:</div><blockquote> I hate metagaming. </blockquote>We're on a forum that regularly discusses game design elements and doesn't actually have a game to play yet. Everything is meta- at this point. </blockquote><p>Are you saying I hate everything? Just kidding...
<p>We are discussing gamemechanics, but probably that wasn't my best comment. But it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is. If I would create a game, I would create it based on a system you can only play, not metaplay. It might just be ideal, but that's where I draw my ideas from: from idealism.</p>Keovar wrote:Aeioun Plainsweed wrote: I hate metagaming.
We're on a forum that regularly discusses game design elements and doesn't actually have a game to play yet. Everything is meta- at this point. Are you saying I hate everything? Just kidding... We are discussing gamemechanics, but probably that wasn't my best comment. But it describes my attitude or opinion towards min/maxing / gaming a game compared to what rp(thinking more about the character instead of the player) is. If I would...Aeioun Plainsweed2013-11-08T10:53:12ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Keovarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#172013-11-08T10:02:40Z2013-11-08T10:02:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:</div><blockquote> I hate metagaming. </blockquote><p>We're on a forum that regularly discusses game design elements and doesn't actually have a game to play yet. Everything is meta- at this point.Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:I hate metagaming.
We're on a forum that regularly discusses game design elements and doesn't actually have a game to play yet. Everything is meta- at this point.Keovar2013-11-08T10:02:40ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Aeioun Plainsweedhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#162013-11-08T09:20:05Z2013-11-08T09:20:05Z<p>I hate metagaming.</p>I hate metagaming.Aeioun Plainsweed2013-11-08T09:20:05ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Wurnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#152013-11-08T08:42:47Z2013-11-08T08:42:47Z<p>Having the option to speed up XP gains for newcomers, even if totally optional, can create pressure on the noobs to do so (either from themselves or from the group they are playing with). This might prove harmful to the game. I know I would hate it if I joined a game and was told: "you are two years behind the rest of the players. If you pay 350 euro you will catch up to them. Everyone else is doing it.".</p>
<p>So long as the power curve is flat(ish) and there is a constant influx of new players, I wouldn't mind starting behind "the old timers". </p>
<p>If I was the only noob on the server however because everyone else paid for the equivalent of a 2 y.o. character, I might feel that the game is not worth it.</p>
<p>Also, providing XP-rate boosts to low level players encourages creating a lot of alts instead of horizontally progressing your main character.</p>Having the option to speed up XP gains for newcomers, even if totally optional, can create pressure on the noobs to do so (either from themselves or from the group they are playing with). This might prove harmful to the game. I know I would hate it if I joined a game and was told: "you are two years behind the rest of the players. If you pay 350 euro you will catch up to them. Everyone else is doing it.".
So long as the power curve is flat(ish) and there is a constant influx of new players,...Wurner2013-11-08T08:42:47ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Powerleveling in PFO (yes/no question for devs after the break)Keovarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qc27?Powerleveling-in-PFO#142013-11-08T07:05:47Z2013-11-08T07:05:47Z<p>The point was more about raising the topic for discussion rather than pushing for a particular position too much. </p>
<p>I'll be in from the start so it won't affect me too much, except that I feel an unwelcome pressure to decide how many characters I might eventually want in the long term because putting the decision off until I actually feel like using them means time lost. I tend to be a completist; I've gone back and listened to the entire 5-7 years long backlogs of podcasts I like. Not being able to do the 'make-up work' ends up feeling like a splinter to me. It's not a serious issue, but it's a nagging one because it seems small and like it should be repairable. </p>
<p>Then there's the concern that if the game becomes too cliquish, it could have a harder time retaining new players, and that means we all lose. We don't yet know how the culture of the game will shape up, whether raw numbers will be so important that 'newbies' will become a highly-contested resource (of sorts), or whether a lean team of old guard vets will be able to accomplish plenty without 'noobs' in their way. I would guess GW will skew towards the "warm bodies" end of the spectrum, since that's probably better for business.</p>
<p>Still, it occurs to me that accelerated catch-up training would make it easier to replace a banned account, and that's a downside I consider more significant than the usual "but I got here first!" sense of entitlement that's the typical sentiment driving arguments against equalization systems.</p>The point was more about raising the topic for discussion rather than pushing for a particular position too much.
I'll be in from the start so it won't affect me too much, except that I feel an unwelcome pressure to decide how many characters I might eventually want in the long term because putting the decision off until I actually feel like using them means time lost. I tend to be a completist; I've gone back and listened to the entire 5-7 years long backlogs of podcasts I like. Not being...Keovar2013-11-08T07:05:47Z