Generating 200 hp of damage in a round


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Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Wraith235 wrote:
thats 39-91 (average of 65) damage per attack .. and 3 attacks (4 with Haste - 5 with Ki pool)

Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.

BTW, where is the 10d6 coming from on each attack?


Just to chime in, I have a barbarian build that is admittedly broken, but for the campaign is necessary. 18th level half dragon barbarian (+8 strength bonus), all ability point increase into strength, human race bonus to strength, rage gives +6 bonus to strength, +6 belt of strength, +5 tome to strength, +5 furious courageous weapon (effecitvely +7 and also provides an increase to strength because the strength bonus from rage is morale) maybe some other stuff I've forgotten ends up with a raging strength score in the 50s for a modifier of +25 or so. Two handed weapon for 1.5 time strength. Power attack for a sweet +15/-5 (and reckless abandon so I don't miss). Add in the rage power that lets you add your constitution modifier to your attack damage (and it scales with two-handed weapons like strength) and toss in a 15-20 critical threat range from Nodachi with improved critical and every time I crit I'm dealing about 200 points of damage from a single attack. If I get a lucky round I'm putting out 1000 points of damage with 5 criticals atatcks.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Probably not. A wizard that starts with 12 Con (likely), gets a belt +6, and puts all his favored class bonuses into hp will average 172.5.

That's not getting into inherent bonuses, but even a 20th level wizard probably doesn't have much by way of inherent bonuses in Con. You have to devote a pretty significant amount of resources to get a wizard 20 up to the 230 range.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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greysector wrote:
Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.

Yes it does, depending on the effect.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

But yeah, it's easy for martials to get over 200 DPR in the upper levels, especially when buffs are involved. And I don't mean on an exceptional, "I rolled 4 crits," kind of round.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Netopalis wrote:

A) It's quite easy to do at higher levels, using magical weapons and various feats that deal extra damage. My Magus is at level 7 and does the following damage on a crit (which happens on a 15):

2d6 (scimitar damage) + 1.5x14d6 (Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp)

That's just one of his three attacks, and that's just at level 7. Potential maximum damage on a single turn is 162.

B) Some people enjoy breaking the game. Some scenarios require that level of system mastery. Try to beat The Elven Entanglement without somebody who can deal that sort of damage and you might be in trouble.

Your damage should only be 2d6+(1.5x7d6). Intensify doubles the damage cap, but not the actual damage. For example a 15th level wizard casts fireball - thats 10d6. If it's intensified, that's 15d6.


200 damage in a round is pritty easy!

200 damage on avrage makes some thinking and optemized build but certainly not dificult at lv 20

lvl 10 magus with intensefied empowered shocking grasp is 15d6+ 1d6 +str critting on a 15-20 this gets doubled

so that would be 30d6 +2d6 +(2xSTR)

30-180 + 2-18 +12 so 44-210 damage on a single hit he stil gets two attacks that round besides his intensefied empowered shocking grasp.

and some arcanas can maxemize that too!


Play some scenarios where the mooks have 100hp+, Giants and their ilk are often great mid/high level mooks, and if you have more than a pair of them you need to be able to cut down at least 150ish HP in a round or you are going to get struck back (PC defense lags offense of enemies, giants can one round PCs with their often favored high crit modifier weapons and power attacks). Heck there was a scenario in an AP that involved over half a dozen giants + pets where if the party didn't have the ability to spike down giants in one turn, they would have been quickly overwhelmed. And that was like only book 4, not 5 or 6. I think I have more fire giant/frost giant kills on PCs than any other monster. They are just nasty and not taking them seriously is a sure way to die horribly.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Jiggy wrote:
greysector wrote:
Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.
Yes it does, depending on the effect.

Glad to see that the rules team is following its own advice.


greysector wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
greysector wrote:
Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.
Yes it does, depending on the effect.
Glad to see that the rules team is following its own advice.

Can you be more specific about your point of contention here? Besides which the FAQ that allows monks extra attack from ki and haste to stack is from April 2013, your linked thread is from 2010.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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greysector wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
greysector wrote:
Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.
Yes it does, depending on the effect.
Glad to see that the rules team is following its own advice.

There's a big difference between saying that things which explicitly reference X to tell you how they work should be affected by things that affect X, versus having two unrelated effects both produce X and concluding that they must not stack. You're misapplying what SKR was saying.

Liberty's Edge

greysector wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
thats 39-91 (average of 65) damage per attack .. and 3 attacks (4 with Haste - 5 with Ki pool)

Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.

BTW, where is the 10d6 coming from on each attack?

Actually it does. Check the FAQ.

Liberty's Edge

My Advice: Get Pounce.

Beastmorph Alchemist can give you pounce
Kitsunie can get it.

Get the Mounted Combat Feats and Leadership for a Mount or the Feats that grant any character class a Mount (there are about three needed).

Personally I would go Alchemist and Fighter. The buffs will help a lot and the loss of BAB is minimal given the mutagen; loss of feats is hard but... so it goes. You still get 8 feats from level and 4 feats from fighter (go Dragoon and get Skill Focus(ride) for free = 12 feats.
For this build 9 feats are necessary: Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Wheeling-Charge, Power Attack, Three feats for the animal companion...(I think).

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are nice but as you will see below not super necessary.

16th Level(10 Beastmorph Alchemist/6 Dragoon Fighter:
32 Str with mutagen (Begin w/ 18 +4 for 16th level and +6 for items + 4 for mutagen). Bab +13. +2 Lance. Weapon Focus. Weapon Mastery.

+30 Charge +26 w/ power attack. (+11str+13bab+1WF+1WM+2weapon+2charge)

Damage: Two hand lance with Power Attack and W. Specl.= 1d8+33
(+16str+2WS+2weapon+12PA+1WM)

Charge with pounce +26/+21/+16 3d8+99. If you hit all three times you are looking at over 300 pts of damage in a round.

All that can be done with minimal expense. Obviously replace fighter with Paladin would be even bigger, but the feats would be harder to get and the question was how to get a fighter to do over 200 hps in a round. I understand the above breaks away from the original question - to that point I must admit that I am stumped. I have other builds that don't require the above but they are all multi-classed to some degree, so I have no pure fighter idea.


CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Hmmm That's interesting, a d6 character with 11+ HP / level. That would give him a 24-26 con to average 230 HP. (assuming he rolled an average of 3.5 on the die roll)


shiiktan wrote:
Netopalis wrote:

A) It's quite easy to do at higher levels, using magical weapons and various feats that deal extra damage. My Magus is at level 7 and does the following damage on a crit (which happens on a 15):

2d6 (scimitar damage) + 1.5x14d6 (Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp)

That's just one of his three attacks, and that's just at level 7. Potential maximum damage on a single turn is 162.

B) Some people enjoy breaking the game. Some scenarios require that level of system mastery. Try to beat The Elven Entanglement without somebody who can deal that sort of damage and you might be in trouble.

Your damage should only be 2d6+(1.5x7d6). Intensify doubles the damage cap, but not the actual damage. For example a 15th level wizard casts fireball - thats 10d6. If it's intensified, that's 15d6.

He's already multiplied the damage dice for the crit: 1.5*(7d6*2) = 1.5*14d6.


Amenhotep wrote:

My Advice: Get Pounce.

Beastmorph Alchemist can give you pounce

Invisible beastmorph vivisectionist with monstrous physique. They'll never see that one coming!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Jiggy wrote:
greysector wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
greysector wrote:
Haste does not stack with other effects which grant you an extra attack.
Yes it does, depending on the effect.
Glad to see that the rules team is following its own advice.
There's a big difference between saying that things which explicitly reference X to tell you how they work should be affected by things that affect X, versus having two unrelated effects both produce X and concluding that they must not stack. You're misapplying what SKR was saying.
SKR wrote:
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If you line up Daffy Duck, Donald Duck, Duckman, and Howard the Duck, from a game standpoint it makes sense that a +1 duck-bane arrow is going to do +2d6 damage in addition to normal arrow damage if you shoot any of them, because they're all ducks. And if you shot that arrow at "Duckie" from Pretty in Pink, it wouldn't get any bonus damage, because he isn't a duck. And you should be able to see why those first four are ducks and the last one isn't.

Effect A grants you an extra attack on a full attack. Effect B grants you an extra attack on a full attack. How are those not the same?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I didn't say they weren't the same, I'm saying that your conclusion that they must not be usable together is something you pulled out of the air, and in no way follows from SKR's comments.

Weapon Focus/Specialization give a bonus to attack/damage with a particular weapon for a fighter. So does Weapon Training. Doesn't mean they don't stack.

Grand Lodge

Well, A Half-Giant Psionic Aegis duel wielding size huge (size large plus enlarging the blade with a skill) with a strength of about 26 (or higher) at level 13 should be able to.


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Clectabled wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher
Hmmm That's interesting, a d6 character with 11+ HP / level. That would give him a 24-26 con to average 230 HP. (assuming he rolled an average of 3.5 on the die roll)

Don't forget favored class bonuses and Toughness. And full HP at first level, for that matter.

This is also assuming that we're just talking base HP and glossing over the fact that wizard or sorcerer can pretty quickly keep False Life up permanently, etc.

Between those and being able to craft a +CON item for cheap it's not uncommon for me to play something like a wizard and have the highest HP total in the party quickly. Not that a barbarian or whatever couldn't be built to go higher but more that they tend to have different item priorities.


Charlie Bell wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Probably not. A wizard that starts with 12 Con (likely), gets a belt +6, and puts all his favored class bonuses into hp will average 172.5.

That's not getting into inherent bonuses, but even a 20th level wizard probably doesn't have much by way of inherent bonuses in Con. You have to devote a pretty significant amount of resources to get a wizard 20 up to the 230 range.

I wrote that, not Cheezy, and most people to include the ones I talk to one these boards dont like to start with a constitution modifier below 14

14 is a +2
+6 belt takes it to a +5
Inherent bonuses can take it to a +7 by level 20.

Caster dont need as much gear as the other classes so raising 1 physical stat is not that difficult.

Liberty's Edge

Clectabled wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher
Hmmm That's interesting, a d6 character with 11+ HP / level. That would give him a 24-26 con to average 230 HP. (assuming he rolled an average of 3.5 on the die roll)

Scrodingers Wizards always has max hit points.


ciretose wrote:
Scrodingers Wizards always has max hit points.

Who cares?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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MrSin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scrodingers Wizards always has max hit points.
Who cares?

Undead cats.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

wraithstrike wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Probably not. A wizard that starts with 12 Con (likely), gets a belt +6, and puts all his favored class bonuses into hp will average 172.5.

That's not getting into inherent bonuses, but even a 20th level wizard probably doesn't have much by way of inherent bonuses in Con. You have to devote a pretty significant amount of resources to get a wizard 20 up to the 230 range.

I wrote that, not Cheezy, and most people to include the ones I talk to one these boards dont like to start with a constitution modifier below 14

14 is a +2
+6 belt takes it to a +5
Inherent bonuses can take it to a +7 by level 20.

Caster dont need as much gear as the other classes so raising 1 physical stat is not that difficult.

"Wizard starting with a 14 CON, maxing inherent and enhancement bonuses to CON, taking all favored class hp and Toughness" is not the same as "wizard average health."


Jiggy wrote:
MrSin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scrodingers Wizards always has max hit points.
Who cares?
Undead cats.

Undead familiar cats or undead wizard cats? Undead vampire wizard cats are a problem in some places I've been told.

My own wizards usually have 14 or 16 at start and get a belt at some point, though the defenses are bolstered by things like false life or mirror images or minions. Its probably off topic to get into a discussion about wizard HPs.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My 6th-level sorceress, if taken to 20 with no additional investment in HP than she already has, would have 145 HP. But I'm seriously considering a CON belt, which would make it 165, or 185 if I made it a +4 belt, or 205 for a +6 belt.

A bit lower than CWheezy was suggesting, but definitely paints a different picture of normal than Pink Dragon's idea as well.


Charlie Bell wrote:
"Wizard starting with a 14 CON, maxing inherent and enhancement bonuses to CON, taking all favored class hp and Toughness" is not the same as "wizard average health."

True, but: A 20th level wizard has 880,000 gp to spend (assuming average wealth), and doesn't really need any stats except INT and CON (unless she plans to use polymorph spells liberally for the purpose of front-line fighting).

Assuming 15-point-buy (in this case represented by the elite array), the wizard would likely put their 15 into INT and their 14 into CON.

From there, getting +6 enhancement to both INT and CON and +5 books of both INT and CON only sets the wizard back 347,000 gp (137,500 + 137,500 + 36,000 + 36,000). Which is less than half of your total wealth.

In the end, this wizard then has a 25 CON, for 210 average hp. So it's far from unlikely. All racial and level-based stat bonuses would naturally go into INT.

Edit for the sake of completeness: INT would at this point be 33 (15 base +2 race +5 levels +6 enhancement +5 book), so it's not like CON has been unduly pushed. A more balanced wizard might swap some of the CON-boosts for DEX or WIS.


ciretose wrote:
Clectabled wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher
Hmmm That's interesting, a d6 character with 11+ HP / level. That would give him a 24-26 con to average 230 HP. (assuming he rolled an average of 3.5 on the die roll)
Scrodingers Wizards always has max hit points.

That was an average roll of 3.5.

A starting con of 14<---I always advocate a min of 14 for creating characters.
A belt of +6(36000 gp...not hard to get by level 20)
and +4 inherent bonus to constitution.
I did not use the favored class bonus points for hit points because I normally use them for extra spells or skills depending on the race.

If I had gone dwarf, to get a 16, assuming crafting feats etc...I probably could have hit 300 or gotten close to it. :)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Holy crap. I didn't say it was not possible. I said it was not average.


Charlie Bell wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Probably not. A wizard that starts with 12 Con (likely), gets a belt +6, and puts all his favored class bonuses into hp will average 172.5.

That's not getting into inherent bonuses, but even a 20th level wizard probably doesn't have much by way of inherent bonuses in Con. You have to devote a pretty significant amount of resources to get a wizard 20 up to the 230 range.

I wrote that, not Cheezy, and most people to include the ones I talk to one these boards dont like to start with a constitution modifier below 14

14 is a +2
+6 belt takes it to a +5
Inherent bonuses can take it to a +7 by level 20.

Caster dont need as much gear as the other classes so raising 1 physical stat is not that difficult.

"Wizard starting with a 14 CON, maxing inherent and enhancement bonuses to CON, taking all favored class hp and Toughness" is not the same as "wizard average health."

I did not max con. I could have started with a 16 or better in con by dumping stats, and since fort saves kill, and they are weak for d6 casters why would I not bump constitution? Now maybe toughness is taking it a bit far, but the constitution is legit, so drop it down to 210. I normally go after con for the fort saves.


I always pump Dex as a wizard, but then again, I like to play in rocket-tag games where combat is over in 1-2 rounds and high initiative wins. Before all the various Pathfinder inifinite initiative methods came out, a high Dex and Improved Initiative were about the best you could do.

Scarab Sages

Pink Dragon wrote:
200 hp per round of damage seems excessive at any level, given that a 20th level character is averaging 100-150 hp.

It is quite possible to build a character that can deal 400+ damage per round and has over 300 hp.

Builds like these result in the term Rocket Tag. The winner is the first one to manage a full attack.


Charlie Bell wrote:
Holy crap. I didn't say it was not possible. I said it was not average.

Why is it not average at level 20?

The average(not a boss fight) CR 20 monster which is standard for a level 20 party forces a DC of 27 for a save.

Base fort save for a d6 caster is +6
cloak of resistance +6 = +6
That means the rest of the save modifier is likely coming from constitution. A +5 mod, assuming no feats only gives the caster a 50/50 chance to make a save. A +7 mod which is what I have been advocating, and is far from the best that could be done pushed success to a 60% chance.

So hit points aside, why is that casting not sporting a +7? Yeah he could take Great Fortitude, but money is a lot easier to replace than a feat slot.


Charlie Bell wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Level 20 characters average 100-150 hp.
This is totally wrong btw. I mean, wizard average health at 20 is probably around 230 or so, other classes will be higher

Probably not. A wizard that starts with 12 Con (likely), gets a belt +6, and puts all his favored class bonuses into hp will average 172.5.

That's not getting into inherent bonuses, but even a 20th level wizard probably doesn't have much by way of inherent bonuses in Con. You have to devote a pretty significant amount of resources to get a wizard 20 up to the 230 range.

I wrote that, not Cheezy, and most people to include the ones I talk to one these boards dont like to start with a constitution modifier below 14

14 is a +2
+6 belt takes it to a +5
Inherent bonuses can take it to a +7 by level 20.

Caster dont need as much gear as the other classes so raising 1 physical stat is not that difficult.

"Wizard starting with a 14 CON, maxing inherent and enhancement bonuses to CON, taking all favored class hp and Toughness" is not the same as "wizard average health."

I also did NOT take the favored class points.

orignal post wrote:


Wizard 3.5 X 20 =70
constitution score = +7x20= 140
toughness=20


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Charlie Bell wrote:
Holy crap. I didn't say it was not possible. I said it was not average.

I actually think it is average, or close to it.

Consider this: My example above only showed the wealth, items, and ability scores for INT and CON. If I expand it to include DEX and WIS (the two other abilities a wizard would be inclined to boost, for initiative, Reflex saves and Will saves), we get this:

Starting stats (15-point-buy): 15 INT, 14 CON, 13 DEX, 12 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

Items (880,000 gp total): +5 books of all four (137,500*4 = 550,000), +6 enhancement for all four (90,000*2 = 180,000) = 730,000 spent to gain +11 to all four stats, leaving 150,000 for other items.

Race and inherent level bonuses add +7 to INT, and could possibly add bonuses to one or more of the others.

Final stats: 33 INT, 25 CON, 24 DEX, 23 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

Now, you could certainly say that this setup leaves the wizard with little in the way of utility items, which is true. But then again, most wizards won't focus on 4 ability scores to this extent. Removing two +5 books (or spreading the gold on +2 books for the three secondary stats), means there's 425,000 gp to spend on other items, which seems like plenty. Stats at this point would be: 33 INT, 20-25 CON, 19-24 DEX, 18-23 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

So you'll reach 20 CON without doing much to increase it (a single +6 item), and up to 25 CON by focusing on it a little (by using books). The average might be closer to 22 CON than 25 CON, but even that gives the wizard 190 average hp, which is far above the 150 suggested as the norm.

Edit: And now I think I've been a part of this derail for too long, so I'll stay away :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

as has been stated, doing 200+ damage in a round being 'too much' or broken depends completely on level... at 20th its low, at 5th or 6th its probably too much.

i had a barbarian 1/ragechemist 1/2handed fighter 3
with rage+mutagen his Str was 30 (at 5th level)
with with enlarge person extract and bull's strength from the party Wiz he's at 36
and enlarged with a potion of lead blades his tetsubo does 3d8 base damage
with power attack and arcane strike (thanks to SLA from a trait) he did 3d8+35 (+1 enhancement)
on a crit thats 12d8+144 (+4 from killer trait)... at 5th level!
that's an average of 198 damage, in one hit.

i know that's not an every round thing, but there's a dervish dance magus in the party who can make his scimitar keen and has butterfly's sting- so it happens more often than it should. at that level, that is too much and we've killed a bunch of things we shouldn't have because one crit will end just about any fight.


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Finlanderboy wrote:

At level 10 a magus with a dip in dual blooded sorcerer crit maxmized and intensified shocking grasp with a certain mask enpowering it.

2d6+14 +240 damage.

For the record, empowered and maximized don't stack the way you want them to. Not trying to be a downer, just pointing out a mistake for yourself and others.

Pathfinder Prd - Maximize Spell (Metamagic) wrote:

Your spells have the maximum possible effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.

Emphasis, Mine.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Are wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
Holy crap. I didn't say it was not possible. I said it was not average.

I actually think it is average, or close to it.

Consider this: My example above only showed the wealth, items, and ability scores for INT and CON. If I expand it to include DEX and WIS (the two other abilities a wizard would be inclined to boost, for initiative, Reflex saves and Will saves), we get this:

Starting stats (15-point-buy): 15 INT, 14 CON, 13 DEX, 12 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

Items (880,000 gp total): +5 books of all four (137,500*4 = 550,000), +6 enhancement for all four (90,000*2 = 180,000) = 730,000 spent to gain +11 to all four stats, leaving 150,000 for other items.

Race and inherent level bonuses add +7 to INT, and could possibly add bonuses to one or more of the others.

Final stats: 33 INT, 25 CON, 24 DEX, 23 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

Now, you could certainly say that this setup leaves the wizard with little in the way of utility items, which is true. But then again, most wizards won't focus on 4 ability scores to this extent. Removing two +5 books (or spreading the gold on +2 books for the three secondary stats), means there's 425,000 gp to spend on other items, which seems like plenty. Stats at this point would be: 33 INT, 20-25 CON, 19-24 DEX, 18-23 WIS, 10 CHA/STR, 8 STR/CHA.

So you'll reach 20 CON without doing much to increase it (a single +6 item), and up to 25 CON by focusing on it a little (by using books). The average might be closer to 22 CON than 25 CON, but even that gives the wizard 190 average hp, which is far above the 150 suggested as the norm.

Edit: And now I think I've been a part of this derail for too long, so I'll stay away :)

The 190 you're saying is average is indeed pretty close to the 172 I said was probably average upthread, not including inherent bonuses.


Mystic Lemur wrote:
As for why, how many hit points of damage do you feel is appropriate? How did you arrive at that figure?

Average d8 character: 8 + (19 x 4.5) = 94 hp

If 14 CON: +28 hp
Total: 122 hp

That is an average character of 20th level. Anything else is buffing, and is therefore not average.

The simplest buff would be to take 1 hp for every favored class level. Another simple buff is toughness. Another simple buff is more constitution to start. Assuming 18 CON to start, that would add 80 hp for 202 hp, but then the character is starting to focus on being a damage taking machine at the expense of other things.

You can buff a lot more, but that is always at the expense of something else, so when I say average, it is not with a view to getting as many hit points as possible.

Shadow Lodge

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
I always pump Dex as a wizard, but then again, I like to play in rocket-tag games where combat is over in 1-2 rounds and high initiative wins. Before all the various Pathfinder inifinite initiative methods came out, a high Dex and Improved Initiative were about the best you could do.

You know, we could slim Kirthfinder down a lot by replacing the Combat section with:

Combat wrote:
When combat begins, all characters roll initiative. The character has the highest initiative wins and the player in charge describes the manner in which the battle progresses.


Are wrote:

From there, getting +6 enhancement to both INT and CON and +5 books of both INT and CON only sets the wizard back 347,000 gp (137,500 + 137,500 + 36,000 + 36,000). Which is less than half of your total wealth.

In the end, this wizard then has a 25 CON, for 210 average hp. So it's far from unlikely. All racial and level-based stat bonuses would naturally go into INT.

Edit for the sake of completeness: INT would at this point be 33 (15 base +2 race +5 levels +6 enhancement +5 book), so it's not like CON has been unduly pushed. A more balanced wizard might swap some of the CON-boosts for DEX or WIS.

I don't see this as average. I see this as setting out to get a lot of hit points at the expense of other things. Further, it is not clear how the curve works as the wizard will not have all of this at 1st level, or 2nd level or even 5th level, so hit points will only start to grow at higher levels after a relative poverty at lower levels. Again, if the character wants to concentrate, it may be possible but that is not average.


In general I have seen a lot of builds on this thread that can generate well over 200 hp per turn. They still seem excessive to me. The rocket tag style of combat has no appeal for me at all, and focusing a character, even a fighter or barbarian, to be able to one-shot enemies just seems to generate an arms race that leaves no room for growing other dimensions of a character.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

So don't buy into the arms race.

Let your players one-shot enemies. See how long they enjoy having no challenge at all. When they are dealing 200 damage to an enemy with only 100 HP, all that extra damage is wasted.

Meanwhile, include things that don't require damage and let them see how focusing on DPR has hurt them in other areas.

Either they will build more balanced characters in the future, or they won't. Then you can decide if they are people you want to keep playing with.


Pink Dragon wrote:
Mystic Lemur wrote:
As for why, how many hit points of damage do you feel is appropriate? How did you arrive at that figure?

Average d8 character: 8 + (19 x 4.5) = 94 hp

If 14 CON: +28 hp
Total: 122 hp

That is an average character of 20th level. Anything else is buffing, and is therefore not average.

The simplest buff would be to take 1 hp for every favored class level. Another simple buff is toughness. Another simple buff is more constitution to start. Assuming 18 CON to start, that would add 80 hp for 202 hp, but then the character is starting to focus on being a damage taking machine at the expense of other things.

You can buff a lot more, but that is always at the expense of something else, so when I say average, it is not with a view to getting as many hit points as possible.

14 Con means +2 hp/level. So a 14 con gives +40 hp at level 20, meaning the 'average' hp at level 20 would be 134, not 128. However, that isn't the 'average' it's the average of an unequipped 20th level character.

I went through the CR 19/20 NPC list and checked out their gear to see what the average Con booster was. Out of the 28 characters I checked, 19 had a Con boosting item of some sort, be it Belt of Mighty Constitution, Belt of Physical Might or Belt of Physical Perfection. I totaled 3 items with a +2 bonus, 10 items with a +4 bonus and 6 items with a +6 bonus.

So it would be safe to say a 20th level character has a +4 boost to his constitution, which nets him an additional +40 hp, totaling the average 20th level hp at 174. This still doesn't take into account favored class bonuses, which could, potentially, add another +20 hp, or toughness, for another +20, or a higher Con than 14.


Tels wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Mystic Lemur wrote:
As for why, how many hit points of damage do you feel is appropriate? How did you arrive at that figure?

Average d8 character: 8 + (19 x 4.5) = 94 hp

If 14 CON: +28 hp
Total: 122 hp

That is an average character of 20th level. Anything else is buffing, and is therefore not average.

The simplest buff would be to take 1 hp for every favored class level. Another simple buff is toughness. Another simple buff is more constitution to start. Assuming 18 CON to start, that would add 80 hp for 202 hp, but then the character is starting to focus on being a damage taking machine at the expense of other things.

You can buff a lot more, but that is always at the expense of something else, so when I say average, it is not with a view to getting as many hit points as possible.

14 Con means +2 hp/level. So a 14 con gives +40 hp at level 20, meaning the 'average' hp at level 20 would be 134, not 128. However, that isn't the 'average' it's the average of an unequipped 20th level character.

I went through the CR 19/20 NPC list and checked out their gear to see what the average Con booster was. Out of the 28 characters I checked, 19 had a Con boosting item of some sort, be it Belt of Mighty Constitution, Belt of Physical Might or Belt of Physical Perfection. I totaled 3 items with a +2 bonus, 10 items with a +4 bonus and 6 items with a +6 bonus.

So it would be safe to say a 20th level character has a +4 boost to his constitution, which nets him an additional +40 hp, totaling the average 20th level hp at 174. This still doesn't take into account favored class bonuses, which could, potentially, add another +20 hp, or toughness, for another +20, or a higher Con than 14.

Yes, a miscalculation on what 14 CON does. An extra 12 hit points there. However, a +4 CON boost due to equipment does not net +40 hp because that +4 CON boost doesn't happen at 1st level. As I said before, characters have a number of ways of boosting hit points, almost all of which mean sacrificing something else. If someone wants to build the uber-hp king, they can do it.

In any event, the average character at 20th level still has less than 200 hp, so getting back to my very first post, a character that can do 200 DPR will one-shot the average 20th level character, let alone a character of lesser level. A character that can average 200 DPR, as some of the builds in this thread seem to do and seem to be able to do at 10th level, will on average one-shot the average 20th level character. It would seem a little limiting to play in a game where characters need to concentrate on hit point buffing just to survive one turn against these attacks.


Pink Dragon wrote:

Yes, a miscalculation on what 14 CON does. An extra 12 hit points there. However, a +4 CON boost due to equipment does not net +40 hp because that +4 CON boost doesn't happen at 1st level. As I said before, characters have a number of ways of boosting hit points, almost all of which mean sacrificing something else. If someone wants to build the uber-hp king, they can do it.

In any event, the average character at 20th level still has less than 200 hp, so getting back to my very first post, a character that can do 200 DPR will one-shot the average 20th level character, let alone a character of lesser level. A character that can average 200 DPR, as some of the builds in this thread seem to do and seem to be able to do at 10th level, will on average one-shot the average 20th level character. It would seem a little limiting to play in a game where characters need to concentrate on hit point buffing just to survive one turn against these attacks.

Ability Scores: Constitution wrote:
Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.

Temporary bonuses increase your hp retroactively, and permanent bonuses are permanent, so the retroactive hp are permanent as well.

[Edit] Also, I'm not sure what you mean by an extra 12 hp there or that I'm mistaken on what a 14 con does. A 14 Con is a +2 modifier; that means +2 Hp per level. There is no ifs, ands or buts about that. +2 HP per level on a 20th level character means a bonus of +40 hp. If you increase the Con by a further +4 (such as from a belt), then that is an additional +40 HP for a net total bonus HP of +80.

Maybe you should go back and read the rules a little more?


I thought the average monster at endgame was huge and got a bonus to con from that.

Why are we discussing this again?


I can make a L10 sorcerer that does 224 dpr for 2 rounds a day. My sorcerer only needs one 7,000g item to do it. It is all about feats and optimization.

The OP has probably been running around with players who prefer roleplay and flavor to outright massive damage. Being a 1 shot pony character isn't fun most of the time (to most players). This post was probably in response to a WOW I DIDN'T KNOW PLAYERS COULD MAKE CHARACTERS LIKE THAT! HOLY COW TURD 200 DAMAGE IN 1 ROUND!! (we were all like that the first time it happens, most people will likely deny this. my experience was a L1 barbarian critting a APL 3 boss for 50+ damage on the first attack of the first round of combat)

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