Hardness and Acid


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I seem to recall that under 3.5, Acid had an escape clause that allowed it to ignore hardness. I have not seen any such rule in Pathfinder. Anyone know of something like this that I've missed?


It has no such clause, because acids are not in fact universally effective. If they were, how would you ever store them?


Page 173 Core Rulebook states that certain energy attacks do full damage to certain objects and then the paragraph mentions fire affecting parchment fully as an example.
This means it isn't specifically spelled out what energy type affects what type of object, but it is not a big stretch to say that acid would affect metal.


It is, actually. There are extremely few acids that can affect both organic and inorganic substances, and metal is difficult to corrode. If it is one of the acids that can damage a creature, it is not likely to damage metal.


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Ipslore the Red wrote:
It is, actually. There are extremely few acids that can affect both organic and inorganic substances, and metal is difficult to corrode. If it is one of the acids that can damage a creature, it is not likely to damage metal.

I work with acids on a daily basis so I do know that you are absolutely right scientifically speaking. But this is unspecified acid in a fantasy world. If we begin to apply science to magic for an example we quickly realize that the entire system falls apart.

This is one place where I'd go with theme over science.


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Well, they get a bit into it. There's an alkali version of the acid flask, for example.

Generally, the effectiveness of energy attacks against objects, whether it be bypassing hardness or a damage multiplier, is the purview of the GM. And acid is considered an energy attack, strange as that is.

Sczarni

Some creatures, like some Oozes, deal acid damage to weapons striking them, and sometimes this is only 1d6.

That would never bypass the hardness of an all metal weapon. Even silver (hardness 8) would be immune to damage.

So when I see things that don't make sense, I assume the damage is meant to bypass hardness.

It isn't a perfect system, but the variables are too numerous to account for outside of a GM call.


Nefreet wrote:

Some creatures, like some Oozes, deal acid damage to weapons striking them, and sometimes this is only 1d6.

That would never bypass the hardness of an all metal weapon. Even silver (hardness 8) would be immune to damage.

So when I see things that don't make sense, I assume the damage is meant to bypass hardness.

It isn't a perfect system, but the variables are too numerous to account for outside of a GM call.

Exactly.

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16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

So, perhaps a FAQ question needs be asked.
I say this, having looked for the same rule when GMing PFS, and finding none. Pretty sure, at least once, I had a GM that ruled it did bypass hardness.

So, here we go...

Does acid damage caused by creatures, such as certain oozes or demons, bypass hardness when affecting a weapon that strikes the creature?


Lifat wrote:
(...) but it is not a big stretch to say that acid would affect metal.

It's not a big stretch but a slippery slop! If you allow acid threw metal Hardness it mean you have a cantrip (acid splash) that can be cast an unlimited amount of time to drill threw any reinforcements, weapons or armors ...


Slime wrote:
Lifat wrote:
(...) but it is not a big stretch to say that acid would affect metal.
It's not a big stretch but a slippery slop! If you allow acid threw metal Hardness it mean you have a cantrip (acid splash) that can be cast an unlimited amount of time to drill threw any reinforcements, weapons or armors ...

Very true. And here is why we have a DM to judge on a case by case basis imo. As a general rule of thumb I think creatures with specific acid attacks that is supposed to damage weapons would automatically go through hardness.


Wood has a hardness of 5 and last time I checked, there are weapons made of wood.

There you go, acid that affects organics but not metals.


Slime wrote:
Lifat wrote:
(...) but it is not a big stretch to say that acid would affect metal.
It's not a big stretch but a slippery slop! If you allow acid threw metal Hardness it mean you have a cantrip (acid splash) that can be cast an unlimited amount of time to drill threw any reinforcements, weapons or armors ...

Sure. Very, very slowly.


Hardwool wrote:

Wood has a hardness of 5 and last time I checked, there are weapons made of wood.

There you go, acid that affects organics but not metals.

Who are you refering to? If that was a comment directed towards my last comment then I was going outside of RAW and into RAI. Are you seriously telling me that you honestly think that oozes that damages weapons with acid on hit are only supposed to affect wooden weapons? And then only by 1 point every 6th time?

To me it is pretty clear that RAI the oozes that had the acid ability towards weapons was meant to ignore hardness.
RAW is unclear and actually calls for DM judgment on a case by case basis.


Lifat wrote:
Who are you refering to? If that was a comment directed towards my last comment then I was going outside of RAW and into RAI. Are you seriously telling me that you honestly think that oozes that damages weapons with acid on hit are only supposed to affect wooden weapons? And then only by 1 point every 6th time?

It was more refering to the whole discussion, not attacking you specifically.

And yes, I actually think that an ooze that 'only' does 1d6 points of acid damage is more meant to discourage monks and animal companions than to destroy weaponry. There are stronger oozes that do more damage per round.
It kind of make sense. Acid wouldn't burn through a club in seconds, but minutes of exposure would surely get to it. I mean, you can hit something burning with a stick several time before it would catch fire (speaking of real life, of course).
Honsetly, in my opinion the rules considering elemental damage and hardness, or hardness in general, are more than wacky. I allow my players to acid splash an easy door lock to open it. It just takes time and completely destroys the mechanism.

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Silbeg wrote:

So, perhaps a FAQ question needs be asked.

I say this, having looked for the same rule when GMing PFS, and finding none. Pretty sure, at least once, I had a GM that ruled it did bypass hardness.

So, here we go...

Does acid damage caused by creatures, such as certain oozes or demons, bypass hardness when affecting a weapon that strikes the creature?

Or that could be just does acid bypass hardness.?

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