It's generally accepted the Stalwart defender isn't the strongest of prestige classes but a friend of mine made a side comment about combining it with archery and the snap shot feats so I thought I would post the concept here and see what you fine folks think of the idea.
You could certainly do that, although archery is traditionally very feat-intensive. Loosing out on the Ranger / Fighter's bonus feats could hurt significantly, and you already have a prerequisite of three different feats in order to get into Stalwart Defender in the first place.
I think a human Fighter could pull this off well, especially if you take the Unbreakable archetype.
1: Point Blak Shot, Precise Shot, Endurance, Die Hard
2: Rapid Shot
3: Weapon Focus
4: Deadly Aim
5: Heroic Recovery, Dodge
6: Snap Shot
7: Toughness
Then go Stalwart Defender from there, picking up Improved Snap Shot at 9, maybe Weapon Specialization or Clustered Shots at 11, and Greater Snap Shot at 13.
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Interesting idea.
This got me thinking about another build that gets defensive stance, too: The stonelord Paladin.
When combined with 3 levels of zen archer you get defensive stance at level 7, one level earlier than the stalwart defender when combined with a full bab class.
By going that route you use wis for attack (getting the dwarven racial +2 bonus) and with an adaptive bow you can use the increased strength from def. stance for damage.
Your stonelord stone strike will not work with ranged attacks but if you need to overcome high hardness you can still go melee.
Put on a dwarven boulder helmet and you threaten while using your bow.
In fact this sounds like a very fun build. Thanks for inspiring me to this. :)
I think a human Fighter could pull this off well, especially if you take the Unbreakable archetype.
1: Point Blak Shot, Precise Shot, Endurance, Die Hard
2: Rapid Shot
3: Weapon Focus
4: Deadly Aim
5: Heroic Recovery, Dodge
6: Snap Shot
7: ToughnessThen go Stalwart Defender from there, picking up Improved Snap Shot at 9, maybe Weapon Specialization or Clustered Shots at 11, and Greater Snap Shot at 13.
Not a bad idea I'd not considered unbreakable fighter although I would likely go fighter 8 and swap deadly aim for weapon spec to pick up point blank mastery at 6 and snapshot at 8
I was looking at a possible dip into magus spire defender for the feats combat reflexes and dodge but the loss of Bab would annoy me.
Interesting idea.
This got me thinking about another build that gets defensive stance, too: The stonelord Paladin.
When combined with 3 levels of zen archer you get defensive stance at level 7, one level earlier than the stalwart defender when combined with a full bab class.
By going that route you use wis for attack (getting the dwarven racial +2 bonus) and with an adaptive bow you can use the increased strength from def. stance for damage.Your stonelord stone strike will not work with ranged attacks but if you need to overcome high hardness you can still go melee.
Put on a dwarven boulder helmet and you threaten while using your bow.In fact this sounds like a very fun build. Thanks for inspiring me to this. :)
Hmmm if you could get your GM to accept the earth channel ability as channel energy (shouldn't be too hard a sell) you could possibly qualify for Guided hand and avoid the zen archer levels.
doting, seems interesting
Hmmm if you could get your GM to accept the earth channel ability as channel energy (shouldn't be too hard a sell) you could possibly qualify for Guided hand and avoid the zen archer levels.
I would not want to avoid them. They give my wis to AC, flurry, increased unarmed damage, improved unarmed strike (forgot that, don't even need the boulder helmet) fast movement, lots of archery feats, good saves and a heap of style.
What a stonelord, relying only on his rock hard skin and adamant mind to protect him from damage.
Hmmm if you could get your GM to accept the earth channel ability as channel energy (shouldn't be too hard a sell) you could possibly qualify for Guided hand and avoid the zen archer levels.I would not want to avoid them. They give my wis to AC, flurry, increased unarmed damage, improved unarmed strike (forgot that, don't even need the boulder helmet) fast movement, lots of archery feats, good saves and a heap of style.
What a stonelord, relying only on his rock hard skin and adamant mind to protect him from damage.
Ok yeah been looking into it yours is the epic idea :)
As to the fighter the best combo I can come up with is Fighter 6 Zen Archer 2 Stalwart Defender-
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Lvl 1
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Endurance
Die Hard
Zen Archer 1 Lvl 2
Rapid Shot
Zen Archer 2 Lvl 3
Dodge
Weapon Focus Bow
Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2 Lvl 4
Deadly Aim
Fighter 3 Lvl 5
Toughness
Fighter 4 Lvl 6
Weapon Spec
Fighter 5 Lvl 7
Point blank master
Heroic Recovery
Fighter 6 Lvl 8
Snap Shot
Stalwart Defender 1 Lvl 9
Improved Snapshot
Unbreakable Fighter could be swopped out for vanilla, weapon master, or archer depending on personal preference.
This is how the character is shaping up for 1st level
Kichi Mayumi
Lg Human male Fighter for Wrath of the Righteous
At a young age Kichi was caught up in a dark cult's ritual to summon demonic aid, he remembers very little of the event in the waking world but his dreams are a different story. His first actual memories are of the young band of neophyte pathfinders that rescued him and their lodge which took in the young orphan and trained him.
Stats 25 point buy
Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 19 (13 points +2 race)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 10
Wis 12 (2 points)
Cha 10
I'm tempted to dump charisma for either the full 20 dex or more int and wisdom as the party has a paladin and summoner.
Hp 12
Ac 20 (5 Kikko armour 4 dex 1 trait)
Fort +4
Ref +4
Will +1
Feats
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Lvl 1
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Endurance
Die Hard
Traits
Stolen Fury (For the champion path)
Defender of the Society
Skills
Swim 1
Climb 1
Craft (Bows) 1
Survival (Favoured class) 1
Gear Kikko armor (30), Long Bow (75), Nodachi (60) Rangers Kit (backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, iron pot, mess kit, rope, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), and a waterskin
Bow + 5 to hit 1d8 dmg (+6 1d8+1 in 30')
Nodachi +3 to hit 1d10 +3 damage
The class and feat progression would be as above assuming I don't get better suggestions (any are welcome :))
The intention is to wear big armour and use a bow so sadly the flurry won't work ;( Also rapid shot is needed for Snap shot so the fact it's a bonus feat for zen archer actually works for me unlike them.)
I like this. I think I'll try to build my own later tonight. I like the stalwart, it's nice to see cool things work. I'm wondering though, what's the maximum "range" of threat with the snap shots?
For the fun of it, I decided to try to build my own version.
Human (bonus feat, replace skilled with "heart of the fields" to ignore fatigue 1/day)
Stats (20 pts)
Str 14 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Unbreakable
1 PBS, Precise shot, Endurance, Die Hard
2 Rapid Shot
3 WF (longbow)
4 Deadly Aim +1 Dex
5 Dodge,Heroic Recovery
6 Combat Reflexes
7 Snap Shot
8 Thoughness +1 Dex
Stalwart Defender:
9 Improved Precise shot
10 Defenive Power (bulwark)
11 Clustered Shots
12 Defensive power (Unexpected strike) +1 Dex
13 Manyshot
14 DP (halting blow)
15 Greater Snap Shot
Other alternatives I was thinking of:
-A 3 level dip into horizon walker with terrain dominance desert would allow you to cycle defensive stance. What works for the barbarian works for the stalwart defender. That would require starting Stalwart defender at level 7, and one less feat (not fun). Could be worth i though.
-Oportunistic gambler: not necessarily legit (since it's a campaign trait), this seems pretty useful.
It's weird, the more I look at it, the more the stalwart defender makes me think of a weird barbarian.
If you lose the human feat and do unbreakable fighter I think you end up 1 feat down at level 1 Williamoak.
As far as I can tell I am using unbreakable fighter. Not sure where I would lose the human feat. Normal feat+human feat= PBS+ precise shot (unbreakable for the rest). In any case, this would only really work for a human. I wish we didnt need weapon focus for snap shot though.
Edit: Maybe the confusion is from my heart of the fields, it relaces "skilled", and not the bonus feat (as far as I can remember).
So I built up the character to level 15. I think it's one of my better builds; good attack, GREAT AC, good saves, kinda low damage...
What do you think? I think this is excellent use of the stalwart. It's immobility is no longer a problem. Combined with the defensive abilities, you can basically create a "black hole" of death 15 feat around itself. I'm wondering if there are more ways to increase the number of AOOs. 7/round is pretty significant, but more would be nice, since you can basically make them AOO at every point where they try to approach you.
You are correct my bad :D
Weapon focus is one of the reasons I went zen archer as getting 4 needed feats in exchange for 1 bab seemed a good trade off. Especially with the added bonus of the monk skill list and the ability to be armed while holding the bow.
True. I still prefer fighter (it's a thematic choice). I wish I had the space to take Point blank master. As my build shows, you can still get decent saves. Though I can understand why you would take the zen archer.
I started looking at the powers of the stalwart, and apparently it's DR can be augmented by the DR of armor. Any ideas what armors would qualify (beyond adamatine?)
Quilted cloth gets DR vs small thrown weapons I think. But it offers little in form of AC.
Then there is some special material that grants DR vs some forms of attacks. Elysian bronze.
This is an interesting build, so I shall leave a dot here.
If you can fit in Combat Patrol... it would do scary things to your Snap Shot.
Improved snapshot has a 15ft threatened area. Spend a fullround to set up cmbat patrol increases your threatened area by 5ft per 5 BaB. So at BaB +10, you'd threaten out to 25ft.
Given that you weren't going to be moving around much anyway, sit yourself in a crowd, clamp down, and threaten a HUGE area. It would couple with Halting Blow remarkably well. Trapping foes in an area where they can't hit you, and can't get away.
So I built up the character to level 15. I think it's one of my better builds; good attack, GREAT AC, good saves, kinda low damage...
What do you think? I think this is excellent use of the stalwart. It's immobility is no longer a problem. Combined with the defensive abilities, you can basically create a "black hole" of death 15 feat around itself. I'm wondering if there are more ways to increase the number of AOOs. 7/round is pretty significant, but more would be nice, since you can basically make them AOO at every point where they try to approach you.
I think you did a great build much better than I could manage alone (mine tend to fall apart as I get to the mid-high levels :)). I do think you may have missed out the +4 strength from the belt of might however and if so he is even better.
What about bringing in some lame Oracle? That would let you ignore fatigue and therefore drop in and out of stance as needed. A wood oracle can make up the BAB loss for wooden weapons in the form of a competence bonus with Wood Bond or a battle oracle can pick up weapon focus off a revalation.
I don't think the build relies on once per rage abilities like some barbarian builds do so the 1/day ignore fatigue should be fine still it would be nice.
If you can fit in Combat Patrol... it would do scary things to your Snap Shot.
Improved snapshot has a 15ft threatened area. Spend a fullround to set up cmbat patrol increases your threatened area by 5ft per 5 BaB. So at BaB +10, you'd threaten out to 25ft.
Given that you weren't going to be moving around much anyway, sit yourself in a crowd, clamp down, and threaten a HUGE area. It would couple with Halting Blow remarkably well. Trapping foes in an area where they can't hit you, and can't get away.
I can't speak for everyone but I know my gm's would have issues with combat patrol's concept of movement and the stalwart defender much as I love the idea of it. :)
What about bringing in some lame Oracle? That would let you ignore fatigue and therefore drop in and out of stance as needed. A wood oracle can make up the BAB loss for wooden weapons in the form of a competence bonus with Wood Bond or a battle oracle can pick up weapon focus off a revalation.I don't think the build relies on once per rage abilities like some barbarian builds do so the 1/day ignore fatigue should be fine still it would be nice.
What about the fact you're not allowed to move whilst in defensive stance for most of Stalwart Defender? Being able to rage-dance for the sake of mobility is quite attractive.
That said, if you had a GM calling you out over combat patrol, i think you'd have issues passing with that.On another note, since I see people taking Human to snap up bonus feats; why not Half-Orc with the alternate racial trait for Endurance? Especially since you can emulate the bonus skill ranks with them as well. It would seem a superior race option for this build due to various bonuses after that.
I can't speak for everyone but I know my gm's would have issues with combat patrol's concept of movement and the stalwart defender much as I love the idea of it. :)If you can fit in Combat Patrol... it would do scary things to your Snap Shot.
Improved snapshot has a 15ft threatened area. Spend a fullround to set up cmbat patrol increases your threatened area by 5ft per 5 BaB. So at BaB +10, you'd threaten out to 25ft.
Given that you weren't going to be moving around much anyway, sit yourself in a crowd, clamp down, and threaten a HUGE area. It would couple with Halting Blow remarkably well. Trapping foes in an area where they can't hit you, and can't get away.
That's the beauty of it, you're using a bow for these AoOs, you don't have to move! The feat allows you to, sure... but you can just stand there and fire too.
Edit/addition: The moving part is so people using melee weapons can actually get to the target to even be able to hit them. Since it is a bow being used by this build, he doesn't have to go anywhere... which is perfect for the defender.
I can't speak for everyone but I know my gm's would have issues with combat patrol's concept of movement and the stalwart defender much as I love the idea of it. :)If you can fit in Combat Patrol... it would do scary things to your Snap Shot.
Improved snapshot has a 15ft threatened area. Spend a fullround to set up cmbat patrol increases your threatened area by 5ft per 5 BaB. So at BaB +10, you'd threaten out to 25ft.
Given that you weren't going to be moving around much anyway, sit yourself in a crowd, clamp down, and threaten a HUGE area. It would couple with Halting Blow remarkably well. Trapping foes in an area where they can't hit you, and can't get away.
That's the beauty of it, you're using a bow for these AoOs, you don't have to move! The feat allows you to, sure... but you can just stand there and fire too.
Edit/addition: The moving part is so people using melee weapons can actually get to the target to even be able to hit them. Since it is a bow being used by this build, he doesn't have to go anywhere... which is perfect for the defender.
Hmmm I needed to read the feat better the fact it says may move makes it perfect the only problem now is working mobility into an already feat starved build.
I think you did a great build much better than I could manage alone (mine tend to fall apart as I get to the mid-high levels :)). I do think you may have missed out the +4 strength from the belt of might however and if so he is even better.
Nah, I didnt forget a +4 to str; it's a belt of might, not physical superiority. I prefered to boost his con (and thus hp & fort saves) than his damage. I'd much rather have slightly less damage & good saves to be honest with you. My benchmark is saves=your character level. Most of my builds tend to work better at higher level in fact, because they often depend on exotic combinations of feats (I'm fond of the "dimensional" line of feats).
In any case, combat patrol is going to be hard to fit. Might have to wait until higher levels.