Wizard scribing divine caster provided spell as Arcane scroll?


Rules Questions


In the item creation rules, it says that you can have another caster provide the spell needed in creating a magic item if you don't have the spell itself. So with Scribe Scroll, could a Wizard make a scroll of Daylight as an Arcane Scroll or Divine Scroll (or is it his choice), if the spell's provider is a... let's say... Oracle?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You MUST know the spell you are scribing into a scroll. There is no way around that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, Lazar, one of the character that collaborate in writing the scroll must have the spell memorized, but you can have a wizard and cleric (or oracle) collaborate in writing the spell, but, to reply to the OP question, the spell you will scribe is the one that is know or memorized. so the wizard scribing a scroll of daylight when the one knowing daylight is the oracle that is collaborating with him, will write a divine scroll,not an arcane one.


Of course there is a way around it. You get another spellcaster to assist you in making it.

From Core rulebook, Magic Item Creation section, page 549:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

What this means is that another spellcaster can meet the requirements for you.

With most items, even if you don't meet the spell requirements, you can still attempt to create the item, but the difficulty goes up.

But you MUST meet the spell requirement (even through another caster) for potions, scrolls, wands, etc.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That doesn't work. Scrolls are made by having the spell prepared in the mind of the scriber. The cleric can't help you out with this. He can help you with a wondrous item, but not a scroll or wand spell.


LazarX wrote:
That doesn't work. Scrolls are made by having the spell prepared in the mind of the scriber. The cleric can't help you out with this. He can help you with a wondrous item, but not a scroll or wand spell.

Quote? Link?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
That doesn't work. Scrolls are made by having the spell prepared in the mind of the scriber. The cleric can't help you out with this. He can help you with a wondrous item, but not a scroll or wand spell.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oliver McShade and the Core Ruleook wrote:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."
A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."

It is here.

I am mistaken or it has been cited to you a few times already?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
LazarX wrote:
That doesn't work. Scrolls are made by having the spell prepared in the mind of the scriber. The cleric can't help you out with this. He can help you with a wondrous item, but not a scroll or wand spell.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oliver McShade and the Core Ruleook wrote:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."
A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."

It is here.

I am mistaken or it has been cited to you a few times already?

One.. the MIC rules are not complete, have never been complete. It's also true that scrolls, potions, and wands ARE exceptions to the general rules regarding magic item creation. They follow a more strict ruleset that requires that you have to have these spells prepared in order to make the items in question. I have ready replied that yes a cleric CAN help you in the creation of magic items, but potions, scrolls, and wands are the exception to that general rule.

You don't like that answer, it's been asked more than a dozen times this year. Look up some other answers and pick the ones you like.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

LOL, so a Developer specifying that they can for you mean nothing, as you "know" the right answer, and all the others are mistaken.


LazarX: I thought you were right, but having read the text a few more times, it seems that it only refers to spell completion etc items as requiring the spell prerequisites to be met (as opposed to being able to increase DC by 5), rather than referring to the crafter himself needing to know those spells.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

From ultimate Campaign

PRD wrote:

Cooperative Crafting

If you need another character to supply one of an item's requirements (such as if you're a wizard creating an item with a divine spell), both you and the other character must be present for the entire duration of the crafting process. If the GM is using the downtime system, both you and the other character must use downtime at the same time for this purpose. Only you make the skill check to complete the item—or, if there is a chance of creating a cursed item, the GM makes the check in secret.

If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character's spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC's spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.

Again, it reiterate that another character can provide the spell requirement, with no string attacked about not working with potions, scrolls or wands.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

LOL, so a Developer specifying that they can for you mean nothing, as you "know" the right answer, and all the others are mistaken.

Yes, I'm actually going to say that SKR is mistaken on this. Because it simply does not make any sense. There is a reason that scrolls are restricted to spells known, because you are actually transfering a prepared or known spell to paper. The Cleric can't do the transfer because he doesn't have the feat, he can't take the mystic pen to mystic paper. The arcanist can't do it because he can't prepare the spell. There's no overlap where they can cooperate.


LazarX wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

LOL, so a Developer specifying that they can for you mean nothing, as you "know" the right answer, and all the others are mistaken.

Yes, I'm actually going to say that SKR is mistaken on this. Because it simply does not make any sense. There is a reason that scrolls are restricted to spells known, because you are actually transfering a prepared or known spell to paper. The Cleric can't do the transfer because he doesn't have the feat, he can't take the mystic pen to mystic paper. The arcanist can't do it because he can't prepare the spell. There's no overlap where they can cooperate.

Really? Because as long as they both have Scribe Scroll (Which makes sense if they both have it), this feat says otherwise:

"Cooperative Crafting", Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 156 wrote:

Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.

Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.

Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.


You don't need cooperative crafting for this. Cooperative crafting lets you improve their spellcraft check (if one is needed) and increase the rate of crafting. But you don't need that just to provide a prerequisite for a thing.

As long as the people working on the item meet the prerequisites, between them, you are set. If you have craft wand, and another person has a spell that can go in a wand, the two of you together can make a wand of that spell. If you have scribe scroll, and another person has a spell, the two of you together can make a scroll of that spell.

It may not make sense, but that is the rule.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, for PFS it's irrelevant, and for my home table it wouldn't fly.


Thanks for the replies, everyone, and to Diego for the developer quote and answer to the original question.


LazarX wrote:
Well, for PFS it's irrelevant, and for my home table it wouldn't fly.

I originally agreed with your view on this (though I find your tone less than appealing) because of how I read this paragraph

PRD Magic Item Creation wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Emphasis by me. but you cannot deny the argument:

Diago Rossi wrote:

PRD wrote:

Cooperative Crafting

If you need another character to supply one of an item's requirements (such as if you're a wizard creating an item with a divine spell), both you and the other character must be present for the entire duration of the crafting process. If the GM is using the downtime system, both you and the other character must use downtime at the same time for this purpose. Only you make the skill check to complete the item—or, if there is a chance of creating a cursed item, the GM makes the check in secret.

If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character's spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC's spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.

Again, emphasis by me. This state here that the requirement is met by the second person.


There is general rule specific exception and the more specific rule of custom crafting invokving everything which is dm is encouraged to use judement and comparison.

First, the qustin is can a wizard and a cleric work cooperatiely to make a scroll neither of them can use? No. It is not covered in the rules anywhere.

Second spell trggerand spell compketion items have rules that cant be bypassed by adding +5 to the dc.

Sctibee scrolls says
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

This as written does not seem to suggest anyone can help.


Except that throughout the rules, "the creator must..." specifies requirements which can be met separately by multiple participants. They're pretty clear on the fact that you can have someone else provide one or more prerequisites.


So, to the actual question, which type would it be?

That part seems fuzzy.

We know, or can assume we know for the sake of answering the question, that they can in fact make the scroll.

If you were to look at it based on a desired goal. Craft an Arcane scroll of Daylight. Then, do you have the prerequisites met between the two creators working together?

Well, you have the scribe scroll feat, you have access to the spell Daylight, and you have an arcane caster.

A scroll is the type arcane/divine as the creator of the scroll.

Since you have both an arcane, and a divine creator involved, could it be either?

Maybe...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Remy Balster wrote:

So, to the actual question, which type would it be?

That part seems fuzzy.

We know, or can assume we know for the sake of answering the question, that they can in fact make the scroll.

If you were to look at it based on a desired goal. Craft an Arcane scroll of Daylight. Then, do you have the prerequisites met between the two creators working together?

Well, you have the scribe scroll feat, you have access to the spell Daylight, and you have an arcane caster.

A scroll is the type arcane/divine as the creator of the scroll.

Since you have both an arcane, and a divine creator involved, could it be either?

Maybe...

Not fuzzy at all:

PRD wrote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed

What spell was prepared? Divine version of Daylight.

What will you get on the scroll? divine version of daylight.

You can't get a arcane version of Daylight because that spell wasn't prepared.


Assuming someone else can help you scribe a scroll (which I'm a little suspicious of but I'll let that go) and in a case where a wizard is scribing and a cleric is giving the spell then the resulting scroll should be a divine scroll as the spell used in the creation was a divine spell.

And in any event:

Quote:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.

A wizard would still have to use UMD to activate the scroll since Daylight isn't on their spell list regardless of whether it was arcane or divine.


The RAW is clear: Multiple people can work together to make any item, and the prerequisites can be met by any of the people working on it.

Magical Boots: Joe has the feat, Fred has the spell, they can work together to make the boots - Joe stitches the leather and cobbles the soles while Fred casts his spell when Joe tells him to, and Joe works the magic into the boots.

Magical Potion: Joe has the feat, Fred has the spell, they can work together to brew the potion - Joe grinds the ingredients in his mortar and steeps them into the brew while Fred casts his spell when Joe tells him to, and Joe works the magic into the potion.

Magical Wand: Joe has the feat, Fred has the spell, they can work together to make the wand - Joe whittles the stick and carves the fancy runes and symbols while Fred casts his spell when Joe tells him to, and Joe works the magic into the wand.

Magical Scroll: Joe has the feat, Fred has the spell, they can work together to make the scroll - Joe makes the ink and scrapes the parchment and then carefully makes the exact brush strokes that Fred tells him to make while Fred casts his spell when Joe tells him to, and Joe works the magic into the scroll.

All perfectly allowed by RAW.


DM_Blake wrote:


Magical Scroll: Joe has the feat, Fred has the spell, they can work together to make the boots - Joe makes the ink and scrapes the parchment and then carefully makes the exact brush strokes that Fred tells him to make while Fred casts his spell when Joe tells him to, and Joe works the magic into the scroll.

All perfectly allowed by RAW.

I didn't know scribe scroll let you make magical boots. Or wands for that matter. ;)


I don't know what you're talking about...

:-[

Or, stupid copy/paste/oversight on my part, fixed now.


But from pg 490 in core:

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class"

It doesn't specify that it requires a specific version, arcane/divine of the spell to determine type of scroll. The type of scroll is determined by "class".

Since in this example, there is a wizard and an oracle, the type could theoretically be either. Based on what actually determines the "type of scroll" is "type of class" that creates it. We have two options, Wizard as the class, or Oracle as the class.

It is fuzzier than you make it seem.


Items have a spell requirement. A scroll of daylight has the spell daylight as the requirement. The requirement is the spell. Not the arcane version of the spell, or the divine version of the spell, or anything else, but... the spell. That is the requirement.

The type is determined by class. Not version of spell.

No where in the item creation does it talk about the version of the spell used. Or require specific arcane/divine versions of spells for specific items.

I don't see anything RAW that prevents a Wizard scribing an Arcane Daylight scroll with the help of an Cleric/Oracle providing the spell.

It seems legit by RAW.

RAI, no clue... maybe? Clearly every DM is going to decide what they want to happen, and interpret these rules however they like. The specifics for scribing are scattered all over the place... lol.


Although, to argue against my own case....

from the same thread linked above:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
No, they'd be making a divine scroll of cure light wounds because the wizard is just writing down, in magical-writing-form, the power of the cleric's divine cure light wounds spell. If the wizard and cleric were cooperating to make a scroll of resurrection, you wouldn't think it was an arcane version of the resurrection spell, right? Because no arcane class has resurrection on its spell list and nobody would be able to cast that scroll without using UMD.

I still wonder though about the RAW. The book doesn't require the version, but the above quote describes how it should work in practice, so this seems to be the clear RAI.


Remy Balster wrote:

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class"

It doesn't specify that it requires a specific version, arcane/divine of the spell to determine type of scroll. The type of scroll is determined by "class".

Since in this example, there is a wizard and an oracle, the type could theoretically be either. Based on what actually determines the "type of scroll" is "type of class" that creates it. We have two options, Wizard as the class, or Oracle as the class.

Except by that logic, a wizard working with a cleric could scribe a Cure Light Wounds spell as an arcane spell. This means it literally is now an "arcane magical writing".

Following that train of thought, he could then use this scroll containing the "arcane magical writing" to scribe Cure Light Wounds into his spellbook, and then forevermore he can prepare Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell in his morning preparations.

I don't think we want that, do we?

Wait, actually, I fall on both sides of this one; I wouldn't entirely object to such a blurring of the wall between arcane and divine.

Nevertheless, I am quite sure that the RAI wouldn't stand for it. Does the RAW?

To me, the RAW could go either way, but here's how I read it:

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class" normally only applies to situations where just ONE person makes the scroll. But when two or more make the scroll, we need a new pronoun: "...determined by their classes" which is still RAW, just adjusted to Third Person Plural for multiple scribers.

But that's kind of fuzzy and would still make the scroll simultaneously arcane and divine and might still allow a wizard to scribe Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell into his spellbook, so what we really need is to expand the text to be more clear: "...determined by the class of the individual providing the spell prerequisite". Since we don't have that, I guess all we have is RAI.


DM_Blake wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class"

It doesn't specify that it requires a specific version, arcane/divine of the spell to determine type of scroll. The type of scroll is determined by "class".

Since in this example, there is a wizard and an oracle, the type could theoretically be either. Based on what actually determines the "type of scroll" is "type of class" that creates it. We have two options, Wizard as the class, or Oracle as the class.

Except by that logic, a wizard working with a cleric could scribe a Cure Light Wounds spell as an arcane spell. This means it literally is now an "arcane magical writing".

Following that train of thought, he could then use this scroll containing the "arcane magical writing" to scribe Cure Light Wounds into his spellbook, and then forevermore he can prepare Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell in his morning preparations.

I don't think we want that, do we?

Wait, actually, I fall on both sides of this one; I wouldn't entirely object to such a blurring of the wall between arcane and divine.

Nevertheless, I am quite sure that the RAI wouldn't stand for it. Does the RAW?

To me, the RAW could go either way, but here's how I read it:

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class" normally only applies to situations where just ONE person makes the scroll. But when two or more make the scroll, we need a new pronoun: "...determined by their classes" which is still RAW, just adjusted to Third Person Plural for multiple scribers.

But that's kind of fuzzy and would still make the scroll simultaneously arcane and divine and might still allow a wizard to scribe Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell into his spellbook, so what we really need is to expand the text to be more clear: "...determined by the class of the individual providing the spell prerequisite". Since we don't have that, I guess all we have is RAI.

Not quite.

There can be Arcane scrolls of cure light wounds. Bards can make them.

If a Wizard gets his hands on one, can he add it to his spellbook? No.

Why not? Because it isn't on his class list, as per the rules for wizards adding spells to their spellbooks.


But could the arcane caster research the cure light to add it to his spell list???


Sure. If the GM allows it, any caster can research any spell and add it to his spells known (at least, whenever that caster is able to increase his number of spells known). So a wizard can research a spell to shoot icicles out of his ears that fly around and home in on targets and then explode into a burst of rainbow acid when they strike an enemy - he just talks to his GM, they work out all the details and decide the spell's level and now the wizard has a weird new spell.

Alternatively, if a wizard wants to research an arcane healing spell and the GM allows it, he certainly can do it - he just talks to his GM, they work out all the details and decide the spell's level and now the wizard has a new healing spell.


Tegnaz wrote:
But could the arcane caster research the cure light to add it to his spell list???

That falls into the full purview of DM choice. I don't know any DM who would say yes. But, all researched spells are explicitly up to DMs.

You could theoretically research a level 1 Greater Wish spell that allows you to duplicate any spell in the game as a swift action casting and always maximized, extended, enlarged, with no verbal or somatic components. If the DM approves this abomination of a spell, that is all on him.

Spell research is one of those tricky areas that requires careful adjudication, and should only be attempted in a game by players who have a good handle on spell power by level, and who have DMs who are equally as versed. A wizard should never be granted spells of another class through this method unless the DM can handle that sort of game. Where boundaries between the different themes is hazier than as written.


Remy Balster wrote:
You could theoretically research a level 1 Greater Wish spell that allows you to duplicate any spell in the game as a swift action casting and always maximized, extended, enlarged, with no verbal or somatic components.

I did!

But mine is a cantrip that also has no material components.


DM_Blake wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
You could theoretically research a level 1 Greater Wish spell that allows you to duplicate any spell in the game as a swift action casting and always maximized, extended, enlarged, with no verbal or somatic components.

I did!

But mine is a cantrip that also has no material components.

Huh, was your character named Karsus?

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