I've heard on the forums (don't know where, exactly) that the Blood of Dragons ability from dragon disciple progresses both bloodlines if you're crossblooded. Is this true? If it is, what line(s) make people think that?
Thanks in advance.
They're wrong.
The only bloodline it progresses is the draconic bloodline. That's why the relevant class feature is called "Blood of Dragons".
In fact, you can't be cross-blooded. It says quite specifically that if you are a sorcerer you MUST be draconic. Not part draconic, draconic only.
This is exactly how I interpreted it, and thank you for your response. I'm curious to see what others say.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9qxt
It's legal in PFS. PFS is notoriously restrictive, so this may even be enough to convince your GM in a home game.
As for LazarX's comment. They do have the Draconic Bloodline. They just have another one as well.
For some reason, copying and pasting that link doesn't work for me. Can you C&P the text from the FAQ. Sorry.
|
Is crossblooded legal for going into the Dragon Disciple prestige class?
From the PRD referencing the Crossblooded archetype
A crossblooded bloodline combines the powers of two distinct heritages. …
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. …
Example: A 3rd-level aberrant/abyssal crossblooded sorcerer…
These small bits from the archetype are considered both bloodlines, not one or the other, and not some weird amalgamation of the two. You essentially get to pick which powers, feats, spells, etc. from each bloodline you get at the level a bloodline normally gets one of those things. You also take a huge penalty at -1 spell known per spell level (including cantrips) and -2 Will Saves.
From the PRD referencing Dragon Disciple
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
Linkified link in case anybody wants to see the text at its source (though RtrnofdMax pasted it correctly).
So, yes, it can progress both bloodlines?
The intent is fairly clear in that it would only progress the draconic bloodline, but it doesn't straight-up say so (presumably because cross-blooded didn't exist when it was written).
The "Bloodline Feat" ability specifies "chosen from the draconic bloodline's list of bonus feats", so you wouldn't be able to gain feats from your other bloodline, regardless.
|
|
Blood of Dragons, and the Dragon Disciple as a whole, was not written with Crossblooded in mind. However, you guys are reading what you think the rules should be, not what they actually say.
Blood of Dragons
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have separated the first sentence from the rest for illustration purposes. All the first sentence says is that DD advances your bloodline powers. Nowhere does it say it only advances your Draconic bloodline powers.
The rest refers to characters who gain entry into DD without Sorceror levels, and does not add anything to the first sentence.
RAW: It advances bloodline powers from either Draconic or the second bloodline you selected from Crossblooded.
RAI: Who knows. This is a port of 3.5 PrC written and rewritten long before Crossblooded came out.
I do agree that a DM is completely within his power to restrict this to Draconic bloodline powers. A PFS GM could not.
RtrnofdMax: The linked PFS FAQ only rules on whether or not it's legal to take the PrC with a cross-blooded sorcerer, not on whether both bloodlines are affected by the Blood of Dragons ability.
(If it's intended to do both, it does a relatively poor job of specifying it, IMO.)
As for your point regarding RAI, 3.5 didn't have bloodlines at all, and the PF Dragon Disciple has relatively few similarities with the 3.5 version. In essence, apart from flavor, the two could be considered entirely separate classes.
I read that requirement as Dragon and Dragon only.
From the PRD referencing Dragon Disciple
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
For once, I agree with you, and the FAQ linked above is a PFS ruling, not a design team ruling. But I'd still let a player use it, with the caveat that only the dragon bloodline powers advance with dragon disciple levels.
|
|
What I am saying is, the FAQ doesn't need to specify that DD advances other Bloodlines. It eliminates the first hurdle concerning whether a Crossblooded Sorcerer can even take DD and it says he can as long as he has Draconic as one of his bloodlines. After that point, the requirement to take the PrC is done. Despite what can be argued as intended, there are no other mentions of the Draconic bloodline in the rules text for the Blood of Dragons (except for those who were not a Sorcerer to begin with.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I'm starting to agree that, RAW, it does progress both bloodlines as per the cross blooded archetype.
I do agree that a DM is completely within his power to restrict this to Draconic bloodline powers. A PFS GM could not.
That's how I read it as well. The RAI was probably to restrict it to only unlocking Draconic powers, since Crossblooded didn't exist when the PrC was published in the CRB, but the language is what it is.
It's worth noting that even if PFS, Blood of Dragons only lets you choose "powers" and "bonus spells" from the non-Draconic bloodline. The bloodline feats are locked in as Draconic, and arcana that depend on class level, like that of the Abyssal bloodline, get nothing from levels in Dragon Disciple.
Michael Brock answered that a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer qualifies for the Dragon-Disciple PrC:
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
As Andrew mentioned above, I don’t see how a Crossblooded sorcerer with one of their bloodlines being Draconic would break the game by being allowed to be a Dragon Disciple. One of their bloodlines is Draconic, and that in my mind satisfies the requirement.
This link was given to me by my PFS GM (BigNorseWolf) when I asked him for adjudication for my Cross-Blooded Dragon Disciple. 3 PFS GM's have accepted the character.
I read that requirement as Dragon and Dragon only.
From the PRD referencing Dragon Disciple
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
You can read it that way and I don't think it's crazy to interpret RAI that way, but those words aren't written there at all. Not even close.
Do you read skill rank requirements for prestige classes as being the only skills the character is allowed to have? If they need BAB +5, do they not qualify when they have BAB +6. +7, etc?
Michael Brock answered that a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer qualifies for the Dragon-Disciple PrC:
If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.By this requirement, if he is a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines being Draconic, he can qualify for Dragon Disciple. He should also be allowed to take Crossblooded Sorcerer, as long as one of the bloodlines is draconic, if he takes the level of sorcerer after becoming a Dragon Disciple.
As Andrew mentioned above, I don’t see how a Crossblooded sorcerer with one of their bloodlines being Draconic would break the game by being allowed to be a Dragon Disciple. One of their bloodlines is Draconic, and that in my mind satisfies the requirement.
This link was given to me by my PFS GM (BigNorseWolf) when I asked him for adjudication for my Cross-Blooded Dragon Disciple. 3 PFS GM's have accepted the character.
Again, that's a PFS ruling, not a PDT ruling. They're free to interpret it that way. But RAW doesn't elaborate on whether a crossblooded bloodline sorcerer counts as having both of its component bloodlines. Since RAW doesn't elaborate, it's the GM's purview to decide on this.
|
|
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that Crossblooded or the advancing of non-Draconic bloodline powers was intended. It wasn't and blahpers is right that any DM who is empowered to make individual rulings (ie: homegame) could rule against. But until the PrC is rewritten, or a FAQ changes the text as written, it does not deny the progression of non-Draconic bloodlines.
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that Crossblooded or the advancing of non-Draconic bloodline powers was intended. It wasn't and blahpers is right that any DM who is empowered to make individual rulings (ie: homegame) could rule against. But until the PrC is rewritten, or a FAQ changes the text as written, it does not deny the progression of non-Draconic bloodlines.
RAW, crossblooded does not expressly allow or deny the ability to take the prestige class at all because of the aforementioned ambiguity. If the GM decides that cross blooded counts as having both bloodlines, then a crossblooded sorcerer can take the prestige class, and since no other mention is made of draconic bloodlines, crossblooded would advance with DD levels just as it would with sorcerer levels.. If the GM decides that crossblooded means having a single mixed bloodline instead of both component bloodlines, the question of advancement is moot, as the character does not qualify for DD at all. Neither interpretation has greater credibility by the current rules.
Its fairly simple. Dd asks do you have the draconic bloodline. Yes/no if your a crossblooded sorcerer the answer is yes if 1 of the bloodlines is draconic. If not a sorcerer it gives you the bloodline.
At that point the game does not track the two bloodlines seperatrly. It just treats your sorcerer and dd levels as stacking.
As a house rule I'd personally make them select the dragon powets when given new powers from dd. But it is a house rule.
RAW, crossblooded does not expressly allow or deny the ability to take the prestige class at all because of the aforementioned ambiguity. If the GM decides that cross blooded counts as having both bloodlines, then a crossblooded sorcerer can take the prestige class, and since no other mention is made of draconic bloodlines, crossblooded would advance with DD levels just as it would with sorcerer levels.. If the GM decides that crossblooded means having a single mixed bloodline instead of both component bloodlines, the question of advancement is moot, as the character does not qualify for DD at all. Neither interpretation has greater credibility by the current rules.
This post by Mike Brock points to the first interpretation. Yes, it's a PFS specific ruling, but it should still suggest that one interpretation is more credible than the others.
The RAW doesn't expressly deny it, meaning it's allowed. The archetype says, "A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines." The rest of the archetype details how class skills, bonus spells, bonus feats, arcana, and powers are affected, but the main point is that you have two bloodlines. They may manifest differently, but they're both there.
If the GM decides that Crossblooded sorcerers can't take levels in DD, that's a house rule, but it hardly matters. It's already been resolved in the only format where a clear-cut RAW matters, and elsewhere the GM can resolve it however they feel best suits the table.
This post by Mike Brock points to the first interpretation. Yes, it's a PFS specific ruling, but it should still suggest that one interpretation is more credible than the others.
Mike Brock is, essentially, the busiest Pathfinder GM in the world. He is not a designer. His credibility on the subject exactly as solid as any other experienced GM--useful and very welcome for deciding how to interpret a situation in my own games but immaterial when interpreting written rules or designer intent.
If the GM decides that Crossblooded sorcerers can't take levels in DD, that's a house rule
Yes and no. Yes in that anything the GM decides about anything is a "house rule". No in that the rules do not answer that question at all, so the GM must decide--which is generally not what people mean when they use the term "house rule".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This post by Mike Brock points to the first interpretation. Yes, it's a PFS specific ruling, but it should still suggest that one interpretation is more credible than the others.Mike Brock is, essentially, the busiest Pathfinder GM in the world. He is not a designer. His credibility on the subject exactly as solid as any other experienced GM--useful and very welcome for deciding how to interpret a situation in my own games but immaterial when interpreting written rules or designer intent.
If the GM decides that Crossblooded sorcerers can't take levels in DD, that's a house ruleYes and no. Yes in that anything the GM decides about anything is a "house rule". No in that the rules do not answer that question at all, so the GM must decide--which is generally not what people mean when they use the term "house rule".
Requires dragon bloodline. They have dragon bloodline.
If a DM says no, that IS a house rule.
Very clear.
They have the crossblooded bloodline, which grants abilities drawn from two other bloodlines. Whether they have the dragon bloodline for this purpose is "very clear", else we would not have umpteen threads on the topic.
They have the crossblooded bloodline, which grants abilities drawn from two other bloodlines.
Crossblooded is an archetype, not a bloodline. It states:
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines.
And that's all she wrote.
They have the crossblooded bloodline, which grants abilities drawn from two other bloodlines.Crossblooded is an archetype, not a bloodline. It states:
And that's all she wrote.
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines.
Context is important.
A crossblooded bloodline combines the powers of two distinct heritages. In most cases, sorcerers with this bloodline are the offspring of two sorcerers from different ancestries, but occasionally a crossblooded sorcerer arises from the conjunction of other powers. A draconic sorcerer who is also the culmination of a great destiny, an abyssal sorcerer from a family that dealt with devils, and an arcane sorcerer raised from birth by fey are all possible sources for crossblooded bloodlines.
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. The sorcerer may gain access to the skills, feats, and some of the powers of both bloodlines she is descended from, but at the cost of reduced mental clarity and choice (see Drawbacks).
Crossblooded is both an archetype and a bloodline. It combines aspects of two different bloodlines. It is, however, not simply "you get both bloodlines". Note that you don't even get all of the abilities of both bloodlines--you must choose which bloodline to enhance each time you gain a power.
Nothing in the text states (or rejects) that a crossblooded sorcerer counts as having both bloodlines for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes (or basically anything else). You can consider this a fault of the description; this would be much more clear if they had worded it differently. All the text you quoted states--in context--is that the sorcerer selects two bloodlines and then gains abilities based on the two bloodlines selected. That is not the same thing as actually gaining the two bloodlines--in fact, it's markedly different, since the sorcerer doesn't gain all of those bloodline's abilities.
So I remain unconvinced that your position is a better or worse interpretation of RAW. RAW just doesn't say.
|
I am normally pretty strict on regulating corner cases and "cheese" interpretations of rules, but in this case the way things are written, I think that a Crossblooded Draconic/xxx sorcerer who goes Dragon Disciple would gain whatever benefits apply to bloodline advancement to both bloodlines, because he will continue to have the Crossblooded restrictions to spells and Will saves and such.
I read that requirement as Dragon and Dragon only
But that isn't what the requirement says.
I know what the text says. And you clearly know that at the time of authorship the only bloodline that could have been advanced is draconic.
To be blunt, this is irrelevant.
Pathfinder is a set of rules that grows larger (and sometimes changes) with each book/FAQ/errata that is released. But unless a rule is changed, it is expected to continue working with the inclusion of later introduced material.
Crossblooded was introduced after Dragon Disciple. But there was no changed released to the Dragon Disciple pre-reqs. So they remain the same.
Crossblooded allows a sorcerer to have two bloodlines at the same time. Dragon Disciple requires you to have the Draconic bloodline. Since the Crossblooded (Draconic/Orc), or whatever, character has the Draconic bloodline, he meets the pre-req. Crossblooded has created a situation where normally mutually-exclusive choices aren't mutually exclusive anymore.
Which brings me to...
They have the crossblooded bloodline, which grants abilities drawn from two other bloodlines. Whether they have the dragon bloodline for this purpose is "very clear", else we would not have umpteen threads on the topic.
Lets see.
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. The sorcerer may gain access to the skills, feats, and some of the powers of both bloodlines she is descended from, but at the cost of reduced mental clarity and choice (see Drawbacks).
A crossblooded sorcerer receives the bonus class skill from both of her bloodlines. If these are the same skill, this does not grant any additional benefit.
A crossblooded sorcerer may select her bonus spells from either of her bloodlines. The sorcerer also has the choice to learn a lower-level bonus spell she did not choose in place of the higher-level bonus spell she would normally gain. Lower-level bonus spells learned this way always use the spell level that they would be if the sorcerer had learned them with the appropriate bonus spell.
A crossblooded sorcerer combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines and may select her bloodline bonus feats from this combined list.
A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Every instance in the rules refers to having two bloodlines. Not one, the other, or a hybrid of both. Two bloodlines. Which means you equally have one and the other.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to allow it in your games, but I don't see where you are arguing against it in the currently presented rules.
This isn't really any different than a Human with Racial Heritage (Orc) taking both Human only and Orc only feats. The feat (archetype) lets you count as two things simultaneously. Thus you meet the pre-reqs for each element, separately but simultaneously.
And yet you don't get both bloodlines, else you wouldn't have to pick powers between the two. You get both bloodlines, but you don't get both bloodlines. They're both valid readings because the rules aren't clear. I don't like or dislike either interpretation. I'd probably just allow it, having no real reason not to.
Re: Racial Heritage: Apples and oranges. And that particular orange required multiple designer clarifications after hundreds of posts in many threads before it got settled, and we're still getting ripple threads today.
DD doesn't require you to have any particular class feature. It only requires that, if you are a sorcerer, you have the draconic bloodline. A crossblooded sorcerer with the draconic bloodline has the draconic bloodline. Even if they are a member of a "crossblooded bloodline" they still have the required bloodline. So that's RAW.
RAI... impossible to say. This particular combination was probably never considered.
Balance... crossblooded is not particularly strong, and nothing about DD makes it stronger. Since the DD already pays a levy on their spellcasting, and DD only grants partial spellcasting, their spellcasting is going to be pretty weak. Whatever they can get out of the archetype, I think they probably deserve. They can pick and choose some abilities. Some choices will leave them permanently less powerful at certain dragon abilities than others.
And yet you don't get both bloodlines, else you wouldn't have to pick powers between the two. You get both bloodlines, but you don't get both bloodlines. They're both valid readings because the rules aren't clear. I don't like or dislike either interpretation. I'd probably just allow it, having no real reason not to.
A Schrodinger's Cat argument? It is, but it isn't?
We are discussing a binary question, do you have Draconic bloodline?
A) Yes B) No
Since Crossblooded indicates "both" many, many times, I would say you have one bloodline AND the other bloodline (ergo, both). So long as one of them is Draconic, then you can answer the question "Yes."
You get both bloodlines, but you don't get both bloodlines.
Everything up to and including the "but" is correct.
You get both bloodlines, but... your number of bonus feats, spells, and powers remains the same. You get both bloodlines, but... you get a -2 to Will saves and one less spell per level. Those are the only restrictions. You get both bloodlines.
The stuff blahpers quoted referring to Crossblooded as a single bloodline is all fluff text, and even that gives the example of "a draconic sorcerer who is also the culmination of a great destiny." Everywhere else, in the actual rules text, it says "bloodlines."
None of this is even necessary to demonstrate the point, because Crossblooded is an archetype, not a bloodline. It doesn't matter how many times it says bloodline in the fluff, it's labeled as an archetype in the book, and has been described as such in the FAQ.
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.
Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.
To sum up: Crossblooded is always an archetype that grants two bloodlines, and never its own separate bloodline. Any bloodline features not modified by the archetype, including PrC qualification, act just as they would for a vanilla sorcerer with a single bloodline.
There's nothing more I can say to convince you that there's a RAW problem here, so I bow out of this flurry of repetition.
There's nothing more I can say to convince you that there's a RAW problem here, so I bow out of this flurry of repetition.
Mostly because there isn't a RAW problem here.
Requires Dragonic bloodline, and crosblooded with draconic bloodline meets that requirement.
Why do they meet that requirement? because they have the draconic bloodline...
Black and white. As clear as day.
Is it cheesy to use this specifically to build some weird melee fighter build and advance a different bloodline this way? Yeah, it sure it. Is it legit RAW? Yeah, it is that too.
If you try to do a naive reading of crossblooded so that it is a bloodline, you still end up with a situation where the crossblooded has three bloodlines, not one, and therefore still qualifies for DD. You would have two bloodlines, plus the crossblooded bloodline.