Ultimate psionics


Product Discussion


Does the rules in the Ultimate Psionics handbook legal for a normal campaign? When this manual will be avaiable?
Sorry for my bad English and thanks

EDIT: this is the manual with the rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/monster-news/getyourultimatepsionicspreorder now

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

What do you mean by normal campaign?

Ultimate Psionics isn't published by Paizo, so isn't on their approved sources for Pathfinder Society Organized play (which can hardly be considered a "normal campaign").

Dreamscarred Press, a 3rd-Party Publisher, has done Ultimate Psionics, and it is fully compatible with the Pathfinder RPG and whatever other 3rd-Party products you (or your GM) allows you to bring to the table.

In *MY* normal campaigns, yes it is legal, but your (or your GM's) mileage may vary on whether the book is an acceptable source for your game or not.

Hope I helped.


Whether it's allowed in your home campaign is up to your GM. Unfortunately, it won't be allowed in the Pathfinder Society organized play games.

I think it's on track to be out before the end of November.

edit: ninja'd by 9 seconds!


All you really have to do is glance at the Aegis Class. One look will make you think "Why would anyone who is a Melee fighter play anything but a Half Giant Aegis?"

The downfall of 3.5 was the overpowered nature of what 3rd party publishers allow you to do.

As an example, by 2nd level a Half Giant Aegis can gain the following.

Half Giant: Use a Large Size 2 handed weapon for free ~3d6 damage per swing.

Astral Armor:
+2 Strength Modifier (Brawn)
+3 Weapon Damage (Improved weapon damage)

Class Ability: Damage Reduction 2/-

Customization: 4 points
(2)Crystallized Weapon: Add 2d6 weapon damage on the next hit.
(2)Hardy: +2 Constitution

Assuming that I've given this character modest stats Namely a 18 strength after racial scores are factored in he swings for
3d6 (Large Great sword) + 2d6 (Crystallized weapon) + 7 (Str Mod x 1.5)+ (3 Improved weapon damage)= For a total of 5d6+10

He also has +2 con and damage reduction better than the barbarian, and d10 hit die.

Keeping in mind that I haven't even selected feats (God help you if I select power attack), name a Paizo published class that can compete with this. Psionics are simply broken.


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Mogart wrote:

A bunch of stuff claiming then that all Psionics are simply broken.

So... one min/maxed, extremely-niche one-dimensional character is an example of Psionics being broken??

I can think of literally dozens of common 1st level obstacles where this character would be totally useless.


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Nearly forgot the other benefits.
Fighter base attack bonus and hit die.
Druid skills per level, including use magic device as a class skill.
Druid saves.

It is as if someone created this class to take the best part of every class with none of the detriments.

Changing Man wrote:

So... one min/maxed, extremely-niche one-dimensional character is an example of Psionics being broken??

I can think of literally dozens of common 1st level obstacles where this character would be totally useless.

Notice that I didn't edit your crap and throw in a snide remark. This character is just as 1 dimensional as any fighter or barbarian. He can climb, swim, and use athletics as class skills. He can use "Autohypnosis" as a catch all to make up for any saves he has failed, including bleeding out. He has use magic device as a class skill. Tack on the idea that he can dismiss his armor on a whim to get rid of any armor check and we see just how one dimensional this character really is.

The only thing he really can't do is disable traps, but most classes in the game can only do that to a limited degree.

Given all of this..........

I ask you Changing Man, "Why would you ever play a non-Psionic melee class?"


For starters, I didn't refer to your previous post as 'crap', and whether my comment was 'snide' or not is matter of interpretation. Pretty much any class can present a min/max'd build and make the claim that it's Over-Powered or broken. To make that claim for all of psionics based around one build is... well, you figure it out.

And as a matter of fact, when I play Martials, I tend to favor fighters or monks, because I really like all the extra Feats they give me, and the flexibility I have without needing to concern myself with spell slots or power points.


My interpretation of your comment is that you were rude in your quotation and rude in your one liner replies.

You attempt to argue that you have "Dozens of common 1st level obstacles where this character would be totally useless" you didn't name one.

When I present evidence you simply dismiss it as "Anyone can min/max."

You say that "when I play Martials, I tend to favor fighters or monks, because I really like all the extra Feats they give me, and the flexibility I have without needing to concern myself with spell slots or power points." This tells me that you've never actually read the class that I am writing about. In essence you are opening your yapper without actually reviewing any of 3rd party published material.

In fact, the psionics for the Aegis function in a similar fashion to the ki points that your beloved monk is supposed to use, but you clearly don't want to worry about points, whether they are ki or power.

Finally, when I take a similar tone to yours, you get all butt hurt. Either post a half way coherent argument or stop talking and quit while you are behind.


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If my shortening of your post as a quote came across as rude, then I apologize. That was not my intent. And for what it's worth, I use more 3rd Party material than Paizo material most of the time. True enough, I haven't paid much attention to the Aegis class; I prefer Cryptics and Psions. As for the rest of your post, it is evident you only wish to escalate matters and aren't interested in a discussion as to whether all psionics is broken or not (emphasis mine, obviously). That being the case, I again offer my apologies for our misunderstanding, and wish you a pleasant day/evening/morning.

(and as a side note, Jeremy Smith discussions the myths of psionics being broken in his post here. I found it to be quite useful- and I mean that honestly and seriously, not facetiously.)


I use psionics in my home campaign as well and have had a Markman, Vitalist, and an Aegis as PCs. I've really enjoyed the rules and the flavor of these classes. They are part of a group that included a barbarian, witch, oracle, paladin, cleric, and a rogue. I've never found them particularly over-powered in comparison, but maybe that's the group I game with, in that there aren't power gamers who focus on the "best" combination of stats, rather we go for interesting and diverse characters. The newest addition will be a monk/psychic warrior/psionic fist and I really look forward to seeing how he fits in with the group.


Mogart wrote:

All you really have to do is glance at the Aegis Class. One look will make you think "Why would anyone who is a Melee fighter play anything but a Half Giant Aegis?"

The downfall of 3.5 was the overpowered nature of what 3rd party publishers allow you to do.

As an example, by 2nd level a Half Giant Aegis can gain the following.

Half Giant: Use a Large Size 2 handed weapon for free ~3d6 damage per swing.

Astral Armor:
+2 Strength Modifier (Brawn)
+3 Weapon Damage (Improved weapon damage)

Class Ability: Damage Reduction 2/-

Customization: 4 points
(2)Crystallized Weapon: Add 2d6 weapon damage on the next hit.
(2)Hardy: +2 Constitution

Assuming that I've given this character modest stats Namely a 18 strength after racial scores are factored in he swings for
3d6 (Large Great sword) + 2d6 (Crystallized weapon) + 7 (Str Mod x 1.5)+ (3 Improved weapon damage)= For a total of 5d6+10

He also has +2 con and damage reduction better than the barbarian, and d10 hit die.

Keeping in mind that I haven't even selected feats (God help you if I select power attack), name a Paizo published class that can compete with this. Psionics are simply broken.

Small nitpick:
Crystallized Weapon wrote:
The aegis’s astral suit envelopes his melee weapon. The weapon is treated as if made from deep crystal. This treats the weapon as a masterwork weapon if it was not already, and the aegis can pay two power points to charge the weapon with psionic energy which deals 2d6 additional points of damage on its next hit. The weapon stays charged for 1 minute or until it successfully hits, whichever comes first.

So for about one third your total PP (assuming a 14 Int), you can deal +2d6 damage for one attack, if you spend a standard action to charge it up. Dunno, seems to match up really well to, say, a barbarian.

Plus, Astral Armor is considered chainmail. Not the best armor, especially for a race with a Dex penalty.


Well, if he has an intelligence of 14 he will have 4 power points at level 2, unless he uses feats to get more. (Bonus power points + Class power points) So 4x a day he will swing for 5d6+10 (Pre-feats) and the rest of the time he swings for 3d6+10.

Chain mail gives +6 Armor with a max Dex bonus of +2, so he won't suffer too badly even if he can't get the full +2 Dex mod. Call it an AC 16-18, depending. The only better medium armor gives +6 AC and allows a +3 Max dex.

The ability of Crystallized Weapon is basically a free action, otherwise it would be stated within the armor customization. (the one power point Hardness ability for example)

Given that the default Astral Armor class feature allows him to have free chain mail (150g), +2 Strength (4k gold), +2-+3 Weapon damage (Call it weapon specialization if you like), Damage Reduction of 2/-, topped off with an additional 4 points of customization, it just seems extreme in terms of the free high power customizable magic gear that he has access to at level 2.

You essentially have a Level 2 fighter with half the feats, geared like a Level 5-7 PC according to the wealth by level chart.


Mogart wrote:
Well, if he has an intelligence of 14 he will have 4 power points at level 2, unless he uses feats to get more. (Bonus power points + Class power points) So 4x a day he will swing for 5d6+10 (Pre-feats) and the rest of the time he swings for 3d6+10.
14 Int at level 2 is +2 PP, with an extra 2 PP from Wild Talent (Half-giant bonus feat), for a total of 6 PP. Crystallized Weapon costs 2 PP.
Quote:
Chain mail gives +6 Armor with a max Dex bonus of +2, so he won't suffer too badly even if he can't get the full +2 Dex mod. Call it an AC 16-18, depending. The only better medium armor gives +6 AC and allows a +3 Max dex.
True, but a Fighter/Paladin has heavy armor at that point, so let's consider his AC comparable to a Barbarian's.
Quote:
The ability of Crystallized Weapon is basically a free action, otherwise it would be stated within the armor customization. (the one power point Hardness ability for example)

I've always run things that don't mention the kind of action required to activate as standard actions. But yes, some clarification would be nice.

OTOH, it's the same benefit as Psionic Weapon, just limited by PP.
Quote:
Given that the default Astral Armor class feature allows him to have free chain mail (150g), +2 Strength (4k gold), +2-+3 Weapon damage (Call it weapon specialization if you like), Damage Reduction of 2/-, topped off with an additional 4 points of customization, it just seems extreme in terms of the free high power customizable magic gear that he has access to at level 2.

Masterwork chainmail :) Still, this is a class that "magically" creates it's own armor. The Soulknife isn't OP, and he can get 2 +2 weapons at level 4.

Also, the stat bonuses are enhancement, so they won't stack with, say, Bull's Strength.
Quote:
You essentially have a Level 2 fighter with half the feats, geared like a Level 5-7 PC according to the wealth by level chart.

Well, yeah. Much like the Soulknife, not having to pay for one very important piece of gear is one of the big draws of the class. Still, have you *seen* any well-built Barbarian or Paladin?


Honestly, Paizo released the Summoner and the Synthesyst so looking at the bar that has set... how bad is the Aegis? Already its been pointed out that it counts as armor so no doubling up there, its stat bonuses dont stack with any other stat boosting spells or items, the action economy isnt as good as people who skim it believe it to be... eh, i'd rather have an Aegis show up at my table than a Synth. When does the Aegis pick up Pounce?


Nice catch on the racial of the Half Giant, I missed the 2 PP per level, but that somewhat evens out the 2 PP cost of the crystallized weapon (A 1000g value for a normal sized weapon, probably 2x the cost for a large.)

I have seen several good Paladin and Barbarian builds, but they seem to fall by the wayside once you consider that the Barbarian, Paladin, Aegis, and Soulknife will all get loot and cash from their adventures. Then the non-Psionic classes are in a constant game of gear catch up and can't compete.

Even the damage reduction of the barbarian tops out at 5 whereas the Damage reduction of the Aegis tops out at 8 by class features alone.

All I'm saying is that the last time a Psionic class was played using these books in a game I was in, it created so much jealousy, showboating, and power gaming that everyone but the Psionic character eventually quit. With the Psionic character dealing over 50 damage per swing at level 7.


Justin Sane wrote:
Mogart wrote:
The ability of Crystallized Weapon is basically a free action, otherwise it would be stated within the armor customization. (the one power point Hardness ability for example)
I've always run things that don't mention the kind of action required to activate as standard actions. But yes, some clarification would be nice.

Well, after some research, it seems I'm wrong. Crystallized Weapon makes whatever you're holding Deep Crystal, which clearly states the "psionic powerup" is a free action. My bad, point withdrawn.


Justin Sane wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:
Mogart wrote:
The ability of Crystallized Weapon is basically a free action, otherwise it would be stated within the armor customization. (the one power point Hardness ability for example)
I've always run things that don't mention the kind of action required to activate as standard actions. But yes, some clarification would be nice.
Well, after some research, it seems I'm wrong. Crystallized Weapon makes whatever you're holding Deep Crystal, which clearly states the "psionic powerup" is a free action. My bad, point withdrawn.

No worries, I made a few mistakes in my post as well.


Mogart wrote:

Nice catch on the racial of the Half Giant, I missed the 2 PP per level, but that somewhat evens out the 2 PP cost of the crystallized weapon (A 1000g value for a normal sized weapon, probably 2x the cost for a large.)

I have seen several good Paladin and Barbarian builds, but they seem to fall by the wayside once you consider that the Barbarian, Paladin, Aegis, and Soulknife will all get loot and cash from their adventures. Then the non-Psionic classes are in a constant game of gear catch up and can't compete.

Well, yeah. That's the nice thing about the Aegis (and the Soulknife, by extension). The fact that arms and armor take up so much of a martial's WBL just to catch up with the escalating monsters offense and defense leaves them with a trade-off between the gear they *need* and the gear they *want*. The real class feature of the Aegis is making that trade much more favorable :)

OTOH, consider that everything an Aegis gets, any other class can get too.
Quote:
Even the damage reduction of the barbarian tops out at 5 whereas the Damage reduction of the Aegis tops out at 8 by class features alone.
Invulnerable Rager says hi :)
Quote:
All I'm saying is that the last time a Psionic class was played using these books in a game I was in, it created so much jealousy, showboating, and power gaming that everyone but the Psionic character eventually quit. With the Psionic character dealing over 50 damage per swing at level 7.

Honestly, that seems like a problem with the players, not the class.

OT

Spoiler:
Sometimes, I really hate the difference between American English and Continental English spellings. Not being a native speaker, had to proof-read this post at least twice to maintain consistency :P


50 damage per swing? At level 7?
How many swings though?

A fighter with EWP (Bastard Sword) wielding a large bastard sword (2d8) and have Enlarge Person put on him (2d8->3d8) could overhand chop Vital Strike for 6d8(wpn)+14(str)+2(enh)+6(PA) for 49 average, but only once a round. Or 35.5 3/round with haste.

Sorry, just thinking out loud.


Crystallized Weapon is kind of a one-hit wonder, unless you have the PP's to spend to keep reactivating it. Compared to Meatrace's example, Fighter ftw.


I never fully saw the guy's build but let's spit ball a little.

Assume 18 strength starting, armor gives +2 Str, Using a large lucerne Hammer (1d12 Medium) 3d6 Large. The half giant is now enlarged with permanency giving him an additional +2 Str and increasing his weapon dice to 4d6. Enchant the weapon magically with fire and +1. Select brawn again at 5th level for +2 Str.

We are currently sitting at 24 strength which is +7 Str Mod, so a 2 handed weapon gets 1.5x str mod. The armor gets him an additional +3 damage with his 2 handed weapon.

3 customization points for reach allowing a reach of 20 feet.
(Reach weapon+Enlarge+Reach)

1 Customization point for Psionic damage = +1 damage
1 Customization point on underwater breath = why not?

Weapon + str + armor + magic+flaming+power attack+Vital Strike+crystalline weapon ability+psionic damage
4d6+10+3+1+1d6+4+4d6+2d6+1

11d6+19 = (Average die roll of 38 was taken by alternating 3 and 4 on a d6 similar to hit points)

Minimum = 30
Average = 57
Max = 85

Power points to use = Class+Int chart+half giant favored = 11+7+7 = 25
Unused Customization points = 0
Unused feats = 2
Unused gold = 5500 - Not counting starting gold.

Not sure what to do with the rest of the feats, but you get the idea.

Taking power points into consideration he can attack in this fashion 12x per day.


Why is that an issue?
The fighter I posted can do what he does infinity times a day (hypothetically).

Vital strike you only get a single attack, so yeah.

I dunno, I had a similar build with Psychic Warrior, but it also had the Psionic Weapon feat chain. Once every other round I could swing BIIIG. And it threw out impressive numbers and scared the DM.

I also played an archer who was doing a very consistent 90ish DPR at level 8.

So, again, do you think that's a lot?


Do I think doing 90 damage per round at level 8 is a lot?.........YES

When you keep in mind that the class which does comparable damage which you mentioned is a Psychic warrior created by the same people who published the Aegis class it doesn't surprise me too much.

I can't say too much about the archer either, because I know the horror that is the Zen Archer. (Assuming he hits with every arrow.)

Given that most CR 7-8 monsters have 85-109 hit points, the idea that they can be soloed by one member of the party in one round should frighten the DM. The monsters are designed to be fought by a party of players 4-5 depending on the DM. So if one player takes the first swing of combat and performs a 1 shot, the other players are left with a miserable experience.


So, Half-Giant Barbarian with Large +1 flaming greatsword, permanently Enlarged and with +4 Str Belt, while raging:
Weapon + str + magic + flaming + Power Attack + Vital Strike
4d6 + 13 + 1 + 1d6 + 6 + 4d6
9d6 + 20, Minimum 29, Average 51, Maximum 74
Attack Bonus: +7 BaB +9 Str +1 Magic -1 Large = +16
Feats used: Power Attack and Vital Strike

As you see, an average of 14 damage (around... 25% of total? my math is iffy) is coming from Vital Strike alone. That's not a problem with the Aegis.


Justin Sane wrote:

So, Half-Giant Barbarian with Large +1 flaming greatsword, permanently Enlarged and with +4 Str Belt, while raging:

Weapon + str + magic + flaming + Power Attack + Vital Strike
4d6 + 13 + 1 + 1d6 + 6 + 4d6
9d6 + 20, Minimum 29, Average 51, Maximum 74
Attack Bonus: +7 BaB +9 Str +1 Magic -1 Large = +16
Feats used: Power Attack and Vital Strike

As you see, an average of 14 damage (around... 25% of total? my math is iffy) is coming from Vital Strike alone. That's not a problem with the Aegis.

Actually the problem here comes from the gear. I made the Ageis assuming level 7, which is a budget of 23.5k in gold.

The +4 strength belt is 16k.
The +1 Flaming Great sword is 18k
Putting you at a minimum gear budget before any other items of 34k.

The Ageis did that with the 23.5k with 5.5k gold remaining, and he had armor as well.

Also, how are you getting your +13 to strength mod? An 18 (+4) is a +6 with a 2 handed weapon. Raging you will get to 22 (+6) which will be a +9 with 2h. Enlarged will pump it to a (+7) bringing you to a +10 2h. Keeping in mind that I didn't factor in the 4th level stat boost into my build, I'm just not sure how you are coming up with your +13. Or do you assume that you are starting with a 20 str at level 1?


Mogart wrote:

Actually the problem here comes from the gear. I made the Ageis assuming level 7, which is a budget of 23.5k in gold.

The +4 strength belt is 16k.
The +1 Flaming Great sword is 18k
Putting you at a minimum gear budget before any other items of 34k.

The Ageis did that with the 23.5k with 5.5k gold remaining, and he had armor as well.

Also, how are you getting your +13 to strength mod? An 18 (+4) is a +6 with a 2 handed weapon. Raging you will get to 22 (+6) which will be a +9 with 2h. Enlarged will pump it to a (+7) bringing you to a +10 2h. Keeping in mind that I didn't factor in the 4th level stat boost into my build, I'm just not sure how you are coming up with your +13. Or do you assume that you are starting with a 20 str at level 1?

Bull's Strength from a friendly caster? Doesn't really matter, as eventually both the Aegis and the Barbarian are going to get +6 Str (belt for the barb, from armor for the aegis). So, 18 Str base, +4 Belt/Buff, +2 Size, +4 Rage. Total Str 28, +9 modifier, *1.5 equals +13. Plus, 3 Rage Powers to play with.

But still. 25% of the Aegis' damage comes from Vital Strike.


Mogart wrote:

Do I think doing 90 damage per round at level 8 is a lot?.........YES

When you keep in mind that the class which does comparable damage which you mentioned is a Psychic warrior created by the same people who published the Aegis class it doesn't surprise me too much.

I can't say too much about the archer either, because I know the horror that is the Zen Archer. (Assuming he hits with every arrow.)

Given that most CR 7-8 monsters have 85-109 hit points, the idea that they can be soloed by one member of the party in one round should frighten the DM. The monsters are designed to be fought by a party of players 4-5 depending on the DM. So if one player takes the first swing of combat and performs a 1 shot, the other players are left with a miserable experience.

Oh, you do think that?

You're incorrect.
The other two that I mentioned, a 2H fighter and an archer, do a comparable amount of damage without trying, without situational buffs, etc. The 2H fighter could probably dish out 100ish with haste (which, by the way, was included in my 90dpr assessment for the Arcane Archer).

Those things are core and archetypical warrior builds.

All I'm gonna say is that if you think taking out an APL=CR creature with a round of actions is frightening, wait until you see CASTERS! They can take out whole parties of monsters with a single action.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

Optimized characters will always outperform non optimized characters. I'm not sure why you think that would be different with Psionics.


I think it's also worth pointing out that Form Astral Suit is a supernatural ability. An Aegis' can be stripped of their suit by any effect that dispels magic/psionics (and Dismiss Ectoplasm) until he hits level 20.

Without his suit, the aforementioned 2nd level Half-Giant Aegis now does 3d6+6 damage on a swing and is completely without armor. He has to use up his move action in order to bring his suit back up, which gives his enemy a chance to maneuver away from him and can cost the Aegis an attack that turn.

To say nothing of what happens to the Aegis if enemies take advantage of the loss of his suit to mob him and just tear into what is effectively a naked 2nd level Warrior.


Tobias wrote:
I think it's also worth pointing out that Form Astral Suit is a supernatural ability. An Aegis' can be stripped of their suit by any effect that dispels magic/psionics (and Dismiss Ectoplasm) until he hits level 20.

Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Although an Anti-Magic Field can suppress it.


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NO! I can't believe it! This is out now in hardcover? When did I miss the announcement? And curse the world for my having to live on a very small fixed income! Curse it, I say! Egads, I want this book!


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I felt the need to contribute to this discussion. I need to make clear that I LOVE psionics and have been a fan ever since 2nd edition AD&D. I have to agree with Mogart, at least in part, regarding the aegis class. I will not use a min/max example because I don’t feel that you need to look there to see how the class is unbalanced. (Also, I have a particular disdain for min/maxing.)

The aegis class is essentially a fighter class that has access to a “Magical” suit of customizable half-plate armor at first level. There is no real drawback save for you still have an armor check penalty (which can be mitigated if you so choose) and anti-magic effects can mitigate the armors’ use.

While I appreciate that you can throw around dispelling effects, and in fact MUST do so if you want to have any semblance of balance, this will get very old to the psionic character if you do it often enough to create the needed balance with other non-psionic characters. I simply feel that some sort of system to regulate the armor’s use, such as number of uses per day, having a psionic point cost, or even simply requiring maintaining concentration to manifest the suit would have been a sufficient mechanism to balance the class.

As it stands the aegis will outclass EVERY other ‘warrior’ class, particularly at first level with non-optimized builds. (I would even go so far as to suggest that it might even outclass optimized ‘warrior’ classed.) I would GREATLY welcome any evidence that would suggest that I’ve overlooked something in the rules for Psionics. I truly love psionics, but in my games a REASONABLE level of balance is required.


Just got my hardcover today.
Beautiful book, and thank you!


My hardcover came today.

Wooohoooo!

I had to wait til my hubby went to work to read it, though.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

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More shipped today, more shipping tomorrow, more on the way to Paizo


These classes aren't OP.
If you have access to them, go read the play testing threads on DSP's forums.
There was extensive play testing done, with other classes in the party that were non psionic.


You want to see OP?

Try combining a Thrallherd with either class that provides a Collective. Mass produce Sycophant's Rings, which are pretty cheap at 500gp if you (or one of the minions) has Craft Wondrous Items, to make your Collective effectively number in the hundreds.
Use a combination of feats (Enlarged Collective and Expansive Collective to give it a Universe-spanning range by 12th level.)

You can now leave all your minions at home. They are literally but a thought away. If you really need one of them by your side for any reason, then Dimension Swap them in for minion "Tag Team"

Manifest the Metaconcert power on your Thrall (who should be a Manifester of some description). Then get your Thrall (using their now higher manifester level) to manifest Metaconcert on you. End the first power. Rinse and repeat to increase your manifester level to Godlike levels, or until the DM's head explodes.

There are also some other heavily abusable tricks to use here, such as using the Blood Money spell to power the material components of a Reality Revision, then dividing the strength loss equally between everyone in the Metaconcert.

Really, the only limit on ways to abuse the Collective/Thrallherd combination is your imagination.


Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
Try combining a Thrallherd with either class that provides a Collective. Mass produce Sycophant's Rings, which are pretty cheap at 500gp if you (or one of the minions) has Craft Wondrous Items, to make your Collective effectively number in the hundreds.

Each person who wears the ring now takes the worse of two rolls to avoid being forced/coerced into an opposing collective, which screams GM's plot device. And being part of collective does little to nothing to aid the thrallherd. 135 1st level believers getting together to do something would be cool, but nothing more exciting than the Leadership feat. His party can benefit, and gain a few minor bonuses, but the size of the collective does nothing affect the potency of the power. Neat option, but I don't see it as abusive.

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:

Use a combination of feats (Enlarged Collective and Expansive Collective to give it a Universe-spanning range by 12th level.)

You can now leave all your minions at home. They are literally but a thought away. If you really need one of them by your side for any reason, then Dimension Swap them in for minion "Tag Team"

Enlarge Collective does that on its own; Expanded Collective lets you add more to the collective. Or you could wait until 15th level, and get that, anyhow. I am still not seeing where a member or your collective appearing at your side would be worth anything. Either its a party member (who is usually there anyhow), your thrall (again, usually right there) or a believer (which at 12th level, a 6th level guy showing up is...cute).

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
Manifest the Metaconcert power on your Thrall (who should be a Manifester of some description). Then get your Thrall (using their now higher manifester level) to manifest Metaconcert on you. End the first power. Rinse and repeat to increase your manifester level to Godlike levels, or until the DM's head explodes.

Can't. The power says the conductor's Manifester level goes up 1 per manifester in the concert. So you manifest this power, (for 9pp, 1 minute manifest time) and make the thrall's ML (manifester level) +1. He manifests then manifests it on you, increasing your ML by +1. You dismiss the power, and the thrall's ML drops to original level. Rinse and repeat, and you each burn 9 power point a pop, to alternate between who has the ML +1. You could add four more to the mix, but your ML still tops out at +5. Which is cool, for those 12 minutes.

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
There are also some other heavily abusable tricks to use here, such as using the Blood Money spell to power the material components of a Reality Revision, then dividing the strength loss equally between everyone in the Metaconcert.

This is plausible. Blood Money has been called out as an abusive spell already. Previously able to be abused by every caster out there.

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
Really, the only limit on ways to abuse the Collective/Thrallherd combination is your imagination.

Which is the same limit on every illusion spell out there. Its pretty much Leadership with telepathy added in. Great, now you have your party and 300 (135 level 1 NPC's, 13 2nd level, 15 up to 6th level, plus the 200 from the rings) thinking at you. Hope you got aspirin.


It's more effective if all your minions are psionic in nature, either from taking levels in a class, or from taking the Wild Talent Feat. If they don't already have one of these then use Psychic Reformation to make it so.

Now the minions can be used in the Metaconcert (this is what I missed out in my text wall earlier) to increase the Manifester level by 5(+2 for every two Power Points Augmented above 9). Manifest it on the other with a different set of minions using the now higher manifester level to give an even HIGHER ML. That is where you rinse and repeat.

I did say "If you really need one of them by your side for any reason". Which could mean anything from needing a random skill or ability that nobody else in the party has (albeit at a much lower level), to trap/arrow fodder duty.

Yes it can be a little bit like having Leadership with Telepathy, which also has the benefit that you don't have to traipse an army of NPC's through every dungeon you encounter to take advantage of them. Which should also prevent your GM from killing them off like a bunch of "redshirts", "Nodwicks", or "Kennys"


Mogart wrote:
"Why would anyone who is a Melee fighter play anything but a Half Giant Aegis?"

Um... role-playing? That *is* what the 'RP' in 'RPG' stands for (unless you're talking military weaponry!).

Part the fun of the game (for me, at least) is *not* having an uber-powered munchkin that can stand alone against a ravening horde of enemies before breakfast, before going on to conquer the next kingdom. At least, not before reaching the epic/ mythic tiers. If it's too easy, it's only going to be fun for the munchkin, and there are usually other players in the group....

One character I'm planning in my PF campaign is a bar-room brawler. Human Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything at 1st level. Improvised Weapon Mastery when he can take it. No other weapons. No armour heavier than a Chain Shirt. Yes, he'll be at a disadvantage anywhere there isn't a weapon for him to use, but that's part of his character.

Mogart wrote:
Do I think doing 90 damage per round at level 8 is a lot?.........YES

The Dwarf Fighter in my current campaign can deal out close to that with a magical war hammer and shield, thanks to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Without Power Attack, Vital Strike or magical buffs beyond his weapons.

Back in 2nd, I created a fighter that could deal up to 76 points of damage over 2 rounds at level 1(!) using Weapon Specialisations in Longsword and Short Sword, his average being 60.5/2 rounds. (Slightly more against Large targets.) Granted it didn't increase too fast beyond that, but it was enough for my GM to ban him from the campaign she was planning.

Mogart wrote:
Even the damage reduction of the barbarian tops out at 5 whereas the Damage reduction of the Aegis tops out at 8 by class features alone.

Doesn't mean anything if I'm attacking with energy damage such as, say, fire! And I can throw simple Molotovs at level 1 as a ranged touch attack, rendering your armour utterly useless. (against AC 5 if targeting a location, but that just deals splash damage....)


Deus19D wrote:

I felt the need to contribute to this discussion. I need to make clear that I LOVE psionics and have been a fan ever since 2nd edition AD&D. I have to agree with Mogart, at least in part, regarding the aegis class. I will not use a min/max example because I don’t feel that you need to look there to see how the class is unbalanced. (Also, I have a particular disdain for min/maxing.)

The aegis class is essentially a fighter class that has access to a “Magical” suit of customizable half-plate armor at first level. There is no real drawback save for you still have an armor check penalty (which can be mitigated if you so choose) and anti-magic effects can mitigate the armors’ use.

While I appreciate that you can throw around dispelling effects, and in fact MUST do so if you want to have any semblance of balance, this will get very old to the psionic character if you do it often enough to create the needed balance with other non-psionic characters. I simply feel that some sort of system to regulate the armor’s use, such as number of uses per day, having a psionic point cost, or even simply requiring maintaining concentration to manifest the suit would have been a sufficient mechanism to balance the class.

As it stands the aegis will outclass EVERY other ‘warrior’ class, particularly at first level with non-optimized builds. (I would even go so far as to suggest that it might even outclass optimized ‘warrior’ classed.) I would GREATLY welcome any evidence that would suggest that I’ve overlooked something in the rules for Psionics. I truly love psionics, but in my games a REASONABLE level of balance is required.

Heya. Long-time optimizer here, let's talk some shop.

Aegis's class features revolve almost entirely around his armor. He technically gets a bunch of other stuff but in all honesty if it's not the suit, it's filler.

In terms of laying down raw numbers, Aegis is approximately equal with a barbarian or a paladin fighting an evil opponent, lagging behind the latter in terms of sheer damage potential (paladins, they smite that evil hard). While aegis gets some versatility from his suit, paladin can match it with spells, while barbarian can emulate it with rage powers. Compared to magus & inquisitor (other "magical" melee classes), aegis drops off sharply on versatility while remaining solid on numbers and personal defense. Magus in particular is a great show of both efficiency & damage, thanks to spell combat. Ranger sits in the same tier but with better versatility and more use brought directly to the party (attractive skills, spells, and animal companion)

Compared to its fellow psionic classes, aegis falls behind psychic warrior (6-level power progression > no powers) and makes a better all-round melee character than cryptic or dread, acknowledging that cryptic's brutal disruptor archetype does better damage. Marksman is more useful to the party (aegis lacks any true tank abilities, while marksman's light battlefield control lets them augment a frontliner), while vitalist & tactician swagger in like the spellcasters they are and sit in high tier 3/low tier 2 with their battlefield control, buffing, & versatile toolkit with which to solve problems.

You'll note that I didn't talk about fighter or monk. Aegis does outclass those classes, pretty handily - but so does lots of other core content, including in the same niche. In comparison to fighter, the advantage Aegis has is a native ability to meet complexity requirements. Additionally, by not having to spend money on armor the Aegis has more cash free to meet complexity, mitigating some, but not all, classic Melee Problems that Aegis suffers alongside other warrior classes.

Hoping to hear back, my friend.


Quote:
In terms of laying down raw numbers, Aegis is approximately equal with a barbarian or a paladin fighting an evil opponent,

I think I will respectfully disagree here. The Aegis has no class to hit bonus. Sure you get an enhancement bonus to STR and you have access to the equivalent of enlarge person (and an enlarge person that makes you huge, but that is harder to use in dungeons), but nothing really unique. The Aegis does have some in class methods of pumping up damage per hit, but I don't believe that the DPR averages out to be equal to a Barbarian ever.

The Aegis and Soul Knife trade personal damage for immense versatility in and out of combat and that is an acceptable trade in my eyes. That's the balancing factor.


Kartissa wrote:
One character I'm planning in my PF campaign is a bar-room brawler. Human Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything at 1st level. Improvised Weapon Mastery when he can take it. No other weapons. No armour heavier than a Chain Shirt. Yes, he'll be at a disadvantage anywhere there isn't a weapon for him to use, but that's part of his character.

I get the point you're making here, but I have to ask, why the heck wouldn't you play a barroom brawler character as one of these?


Regarding optimization, in my experience there are two kinds of optimizers.

The first kind are people who come up with a characters concept/goals/background, and then optimize their character to fit said concept.

Then there's the other kind, the ones who make crazy/silly/OP character builds and then attempt to shoehorn a background in there to fit it. This is usually the type of player who tries to play a pen and paper RPG the same way they would a video game.

I have absolutely no problem with the first type of optimizer, whilst the second type irks me to no end.


Gambit wrote:
Kartissa wrote:
One character I'm planning in my PF campaign is a bar-room brawler. Human Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything at 1st level. Improvised Weapon Mastery when he can take it. No other weapons. No armour heavier than a Chain Shirt. Yes, he'll be at a disadvantage anywhere there isn't a weapon for him to use, but that's part of his character.
I get the point you're making here, but I have to ask, why the heck wouldn't you play a barroom brawler character as one of these?

Because I didn't know about it, and it's not in the core rulebooks our group possesses anyway.

In all honesty, I would still prefer the standard fighter, since I'm not really interested in playing a half-monk. Yes, it will limit my capabilities at higher levels, but I play the character, not the stats.


I guess that would make more sense if the Brawler class didn't fit your character concept to a T. ;)


These builds stop being broken at around mid level. After that, official material takes over the broken build duties with AM BARBARIAN.

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