The plan is to make a little halfling helper for PFS. His goal is to fight defensively all the time, using Bodyguard as available, and all in all just making sure other's don't die. I have a few options for this and a few reason why the choice isn't an easy one. So let's begin.
First thing, let's set down some staples that will be in all builds.
1) Helpful [trait]
2) At least 3 rank Acrobatics [for the bump to fighting defensive and total defensive, trait requirement if not a class skill to make it so]
3) Cautious Fighter feat [increase bonus derived from FD and TD by +2]
4) Crane Style feat [reduce FD penalty, and increase the bonus another +1]
5) Blundering Defense feat [give as a luck bonus to adjacent allies, 1/2 the dodge bonus I get from FD and TD]
6) Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard [improve AC of ally by +4 using aid another]
7) Crane Wing feat [for the obvious]
8) In Harm's Way [to take a hit that still beats ally's AC, then use Crane Wing to negate it]
9) Crane Riposte [for the reduction of FD penalty to -1]
Those are all the staples. That pretty much sidelines me into one of two options; fighter or monk. Now I know that fighter is what most people would say is the first choice, but hear my arguments for the monk. The fighter will be very good at the AOO's and maybe even a few hits here and there which is of course great. However, he doesn't have much in the way of defense for himself against non-attack roll attacks like spells and what not. The monk will be good enough to hit AC 10 (requirements for aid another to give a bonus to AC) and he also gets all high saves, evasion, healing himself, and a few other goodies. He is not meant to deal damage! He is meant to keep others from taking it as best he can. If he is down from failing a save, he can't very well do that now can he? So here come the builds.
Halfling [Unarmed] Fighter 12
Traits: Helpful, Rice Runner
Str: 16 (-2) = 14
Dex: 16 (+2) = 18
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 11
Cha: 7 (+2) = 9
1Character: Cautious Fighter
1Fighter: IUS, Crane Style
2F: Blundering Defense
3C: Combat Reflexes
4F: Bodyguard
5C: Dodge
6F: Crane Wing
7C: In Harm's Way
8F: Crane Riposte
9C: ?
10F: ?
11C: ?
12F: ?
Concept: As lead to in the above, fighting defensively to provide AC bonus to others.
Pros: High BAB.
Cons: No medium/heavy armor, no shield, no personal defenses except vs attack rolls, medium progression along the "defensive" path.
Halfling [Shielded Fighter] Fighter 11, [MoMS] Monk 1
Traits: Helpful, [UNK]
Str: 16 (-2) = 14
Dex: 16 (+2) = 18
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 11
Cha: 7 (+2) = 9
1Character: Cautious Fighter
1Monk: IUS, Crane Style
2F: Blundering Defense
3F: Combat Reflexes
3C: Bodyguard
5F: Dodge
5C: In Harm's Way
7F: Crane Wing
7C: ?
9F: Crane Riposte
9C: ?
11F: ?
11C: ?
Concept: Same as above, except with a little more armor and a few more points to his and ally's AC.
Pros: High BAB (-1), medium/heavy armor use, shield use, Active Defense helps himself and allies, fast progression along the "defensive" path except the last two Crane feats, Monk level gives Acrobatics and other monk skills as class skills so you can put Fighter skill points into at level 2 and 3 which frees up a trait slot.
Cons: Gets BAB one level later, which slows down obtaining the last two Crane feats, no personal defenses except versus attack rolls.
Halfling [MoMS, Quinggong] Monk 10, Fighter 2
Traits: Helpful, Magical Knack
Str: 11 (-2) = 9
Dex: 16 (+2) = 18
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 7 (+2) = 9
1Character: Cautious Fighter
1Monk: IUS, Crane Style
2M: Crane Wing
3C: Blundering Defense
5C: Combat Reflexes
6M: Crane Riposte
7F: Arcane Strike
7C: Bodyguard
8F: In Harm's Way
9C: ?
11C: ?
12M: ?
Concept: Same as above, except with WIS to AC and the various other monk niceties.
Pros: Quick use of the Crane chain, personal defenses against non-attack roll effects, personal healing, skills for non-combat use, Stunning Fist, Ki pool, etc, and using Arcane Strike in combination with gloves of arcane striking he can get an additional +2 to his aid another for AC, use of armor at later levels if WIS doesn't cut it.
Cons: Medium BAB progression (not too bad since he is mostly just hitting AC 10), d8 HP, possible low personal AC when not FD or TD, slowest "defensive" path progression (In Harm's Way at 8th), fewer feats in general to play with after "defensive" path is complete.
SO! Those are my proposed options. Please feel free to go in depth in a critique, give all advice you feel would be beneficial, and thanks in advance for the assistance!
finding some means of shoe-horning arcane strike into the build can pay off with the 'gloves of arcane striking' which dovetail nicely when using 'aid another' actions.
Hmmm... The Quinggong monk who has selected a spell-like ability has a caster level equal to his monk levels. And since spell'like abilities count for "casting spells", upon taking his first SLA he can meet the requisites for Arcane Strike. Simply put, in the full monk build, I could go that way and get the +2 to my aid another actions via the gloves. Nice catch. Will edit monk build to reflect this.
Added 2 fighter levels to the "monk only" build to obtain Arcane Strike sooner than 11, which then gives armor proficiency if needed.
Wow... very similar to my own halfling character.
#1 - be Taldan! Season 4 Year-end boon for Taldan's was to increase any bonus received from Aid Another by +2, if received from a fellow Taldan.
My guy is actual a Rogue2/Monk2, looking to add Ftr2/Clr/Barb, then into Halfling Opportunist.
I'm holding back on "In Harm's Way", b/c hit points are not that high (and it doesn't care about your AC). Also, I don't think you can use Crane Wing to deflect it: "you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you."
May I bring your attention to Halfling opportunist?
"you can intercept a successful attack against that ally as an immediate action, taking full damage from that attack and any associated effect"
Line item from In Harm's Way. You have used the feat, so it is about to hit you, so you deflect.
Halfling Opportunist is all about benefiting itself, the aid another increase is only when other aid him, the exploitive maneuver gives benefits to his own checks (which might be good for giving a bonus on hitting that AC 10 I guess). The only good thing I really see is exceptionally lucky. Which is kind of nice. I am trying to aid my allies more than myself however.
Also, can I have a link to the Taldan boon thing. I have NOOOO clue what a season year-end boon is or how to obtain one.
Tried to edit main post to add in Swift Aid to the first and third build but the forums ate it and now I can edit it any longer. SO!
Swift Aid grants a +1 to any one ally on the first build, and a +3 (taking into account gloves of arcane striking) to any one ally on the third build at level 9 on the first and level 10 on the second.
On the third build that equals a +12 AC to any one ally who is attacked (+3 Luck, +3 swift aid, and +6 AOO aid) +9 for each other ally attacked (+3 Luck, +6 AOO aid) and a +3 to all adjacent allies all the time.
Edit: IF the Taldan trait gives a +2 to aid another then that increases everything to +16 AC to any one ally who is attacked (+3 Luck, +5 swift aid, and +8 AOO aid) +11 for each other ally attacked (+3 Luck, +8 AOO aid) but that's only at 12th level because I will have to drop Magical Knack for the Taldan trait. Or 11th level if I use that feat for Additional Traits to get the Taldan or Magical Knack trait.
Haha, just thought if there were multiple halfings like this in a party. For each additional Halfling Helper, one guy who gets attacked could get an additional +13 more to AC since bonuses from aid another stack.
1 Glass Cannon Barbarian with 8 Halfling Helpers = +107 AC to the Barbarian lol. Mind you, 5 halflings would need a reach weapon and so would the Barb, but hey, it's funny to think about.
Quick question... when Fighting Defensively, can I Aid Another as my standard action? Because if I can, then...
Fighting Defensive, then Aid Another and Swift Aid to give the +12 to my ally, then someone attacks him, I use an AOO to Aid Another to grant an additional +6 for a total of +18. If Taldan then total +24.
If Halfling Helper party aiding the Barb then +171 to AC when he is attacked. That's fun.
MC Templar wrote: finding some means of shoe-horning arcane strike into the build can pay off with the 'gloves of arcane striking' which dovetail nicely when using 'aid another' actions. Not seen those gloves before, they're pretty sweat!
Go cavalier.
Order of dragon honor guard.
It's + 6 aid another
Tha take swift aid and omg
Try Master of Many Styles and check out the Archon Style tree. It's better than In Harm's Way, I think.
I have a Halfling cavalier honor guard, and at 4th level she doles out +7 AC on Aid AoOs. With a lance and unarmed strike, she covers 10 feet on all sides. I can't wait until she can afford the Benevolent Armor...
Deviston wrote: Quick question... when Fighting Defensively, can I Aid Another as my standard action? Because if I can, then...
Fighting Defensive, then Aid Another and Swift Aid to give the +12 to my ally, then someone attacks him, I use an AOO to Aid Another to grant an additional +6 for a total of +18. If Taldan then total +24.
If Halfling Helper party aiding the Barb then +171 to AC when he is attacked. That's fun.
I don't think you can Aid twice for the same thing. Aids from multiple people stack, but I don't think multiple aids from the same person stack.
Also, the AoO Aid from Bodyguard is just against that single attack; it wouldn't apply to the whole round like a regular Aid AC would.
I've also gotten tripped up by the different wording in Helpful, Order of the Dragon, and the (now retired) Shadow Lodge trait. Depending on the exact wording, the different Aid boosts might not stack. Basically, if it includes the phrase "instead of the normal +2", it probably won't stack. If it says "increases by 1", then it would stack. (I'll need to double-check the Swift Aid wording.)
I have a very similar idea to this, consider the following-
Monk archetype- Sensei- Lets you further assist in combat through advice (bardic music). Also, the level 2 ability lets you use your wisdom rather than strength for attack rolls. Using ki-mystic additonally helps to build up the ki pool, and the Sensei's 6th level ability lets you lets allies use your ki abilities. Using wisdom for atatcks means strength is largely irrelevant, as we dont care about damage, which helps with stats.
This means (assuming Ki mystic) you can give allies +4ac, +4 on a skill check or bonus move speed, just from the basic ki pool abilities, although the Sensei allows plenty of others.
I also use a fighter level dip, to get proficiency in the tonfa (my characters walking stick). the tonfa gives additional +1 ac when fighting defensively (shield). I use the unarmed fighter archetype to pick up crane style through fighter, rather than MOMS monk, as im running out of archetype space.
All up it looks like-
1- Sensei- bodyguard (level 1) combat reflexes (monk bonus)
2- unarmed fighter- Crane style
3- sensei 2- wisdom to attacks, Blundering defense (level 3)
4- fighter 2- cautious fighter
5-8 sensei
out of combat, the combination of helpful, inspire competence advice and spending a ki point can net allies +10 to skill checks. Flavour wise I play him as a grumpy old teacher, constantly complaining about "proper form" and "the kids of today".
one other thing to consider is the armour enhancement "benevolent" that lets you apply the armours enhancement bonus to aided AC. This can stack up quickly, and +3 armour is very cheap (9000gp). unfortunately, monks cant wear it without forfeiting flurry, fast movement and bonus ac. On the other hand, the sensei forfeits fast movement and flurry anyway. I am still undecided.
Best of luck, helpful halflings HO!
Isn't Benevolent only for Aid Another to Attack Rolls?
And the Archon Style Tree is nice, but it would be a net -7 since I'm losing the +1 FD from Crane Style, and I'm wasting my standard action to give a +2 dodge versus Aiding Another to give a +8 to AC. +8 > +2
BUT! If I do in fact take the 3 levels of Cav. Honor Guard Order of Dragon, I get a +4 to Aid Anothers. Let's modify again...
Monk 1-6, Fighter 7, Cav. [H.G.] OotD 8-10, Monk 11, Fighter 12
1Character: Cautious Fighter
1Monk: IUS, Crane Style
2M: Crane Wing
3C: Blundering Defense
5C: Combat Reflexes
6M: Crane Riposte
7F: Arcane Strike
7C: Bodyguard
9C: Additional Traits (Magical Knack)
11C: In Harm's Way
12F: Swift Aid
((Must have Orange Ioun Stone))
Fighting Defensive, then Aid Another and Swift Aid to give the +20 to my ally, then someone attacks him, I use an AOO to Aid Another to grant an additional +10 for a total of +30. If Taldan then total +36.
And of course, +267 to our Barbarian friend.
Gwen Smith wrote: Try Master of Many Styles and check out the Archon Style tree. It's better than In Harm's Way, I think.
I have a Halfling cavalier honor guard, and at 4th level she doles out +7 AC on Aid AoOs. With a lance and unarmed strike, she covers 10 feet on all sides. I can't wait until she can afford the Benevolent Armor...
What style you took?
Gwen Smith, already made sure about stacking in regards to "replaces the normal +2" versus "additional +X". All kosher. If more things just granted a +X bonus, I could take Pathfinder Chronicler for another +2, and a few other sources. Several things just change the number. But the Cavalier, Taldan trait (theoretically), and the gloves of arcane strike all add a +X, so they function with Swift Aid.
And I know Bodyguard is only for the one attack, but they still get the Standard Action Aid Another for your round, Swift Aid, and Blundering Defenses. That Bodyguard is just a slap in the face simply because you can.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Edit: Here's an idea.
PAIZO: Do multiple "Aid Another" actions from one character stack when being used to provide the same bonus to the target?
For example, using a standard action to aid another, a swift action to aid another via the Swift Aid feat, and an Attack of Opportunity to aid another via the Bodyguard feat, to increase a single target's AC by +5 (assuming the actor doesn't have anything that increases his aid another bonus).
Is the above example legal?
The idea is feat intensive so the fighter is great. I went lorewarden and dervish dance.Body guard has been nice, i just picked up butterfly sting to pass around crits as well. I only play about 1 PFS game a year though, so i can't say how to level much higher.
there is a weapon enhancement that improves aid another by the weapons enhancement bonus too.
Deviston wrote: PAIZO: Do multiple "Aid Another" actions from one character stack when You might want to post this on the "Rules Question" forum as a different thread. You will probably get a quicker response, but it may take a month or 2.
Deviston wrote: Isn't Benevolent only for Aid Another to Attack Rolls? Benevolent on armor aids AC; Benevolent on weapons aids attack.
Deviston wrote: And the Archon Style Tree is nice, but it would be a net -7 since I'm losing the +1 FD from Crane Style, and I'm wasting my standard action to give a +2 dodge versus Aiding Another to give a +8 to AC. +8 > +2 Actually, I was looking at the Master of Many Styles, which lets you use both styles at the same time.
Archon Style is +2 to all adjacent allies (vs. a single opponent) instead of +4 to a single ally, so there's some flexibility there, too.
Later on, with Archon Diversion (BAB 4), you can use a move action to aid; you can also divert an attack on an adjacent ally, and the attack goes against your AC. Best of all, the ally you diverted the attack from gets an attack of opportunity whether or not the attack hits you.
On the Shielded Fighter build, you could take Saving Shield at some point. Immediate action to add a +2 shield bonus to an adjacent ally. It would create action economy issues with Swift Aid, though. You'd only be able to pull it off every other round. Round 1, Swift Aid. If that character is attacked after your turn, Immediate Action to use Saving Shield, giving that character an extra +2 as a Shield Bonus that would stack (provided they don't have a shield already). Round 2, no swift action, because it was used as an immediate for Saving Shield.
The Taldan boon from the end of Season 4 isn't an option anymore, I don't think, as you would have had to have earned 6 prestige for Taldor during Season 4 in order to qualify for the boon.
I see now where you are coming from. I see the merit, and I would have to do some numberfying to find out if adding in the second style would be worth losing what I already have. It's nice one doesn't lose Fuse Style when wearing armor (since wearing armor makes you lose flurry, but fuse REPLACES flurry and doesn't say it acts as flurry for other effects).
However, via action economy, it is far more beneficial to use one's standard action (that would be spent on Archon Style, which provides a +2 to AC) to Aid Another (which provides a +10 to AC) while fighting defensively (which provides all allies adjacent a +3 luck to AC, and you can't fight defensively using Archon Style just yet). This would require giving up Crane Wing at 2nd or 6th monk level.
Now when you get Archon Diversion, yes you can use it as a move action, whcih then allows you to Aid Another and fight defensively (benefits from above) and you can provide the AoO for your ally. Assuming you gave up Crane Wing, you can get this at 6th monk level.
And finally, when you get Archon Justice you can use Archon style as a swift (there goes Swift Aid, which is still a larger bonus to AC than the Archon Style) and a move (to provide it to another ally because Archon Justice says you CAN use Archon Style as a swift, which means you don't have to, so do both!) which means all threatening allies can make AoOs if able.
Nice build, however you lose a MASSIVE bonus to AC to all allies.
If he stand in the middle of all allies and just uses a whip, he can Aid Another for all of them that get attacked with the 15 foot reach on the melee weapon that is a whip. Remember, Aid Another doesn't require you to threaten, just to be able to make a melee attack on the enemy.
Long story short, your build is GREAT for providing allies with AoOs, but you lose out on providing nearly a +13 to all ally AC, and an additional +10 to two allies or +20 to one.
Thanks Thune, and no I surely didn't. That being said, I think we have decided the Monk/Fighter/Cavalier build is the most optimal for hiking up ally AC. Nice point though.
Just wanted to note since Cavalier has been suggested that the order of the Dragon and Helpful don't stack as they are both worded "the ally receives a +X bonus " the honor guard archetype however would stack.
You should really consider cavalier actually as you can get a mount with the bodyguard archetype have it pick up Helpful via extra traits and helping out as well...
Helpful doesn't word "the ally receives a +x bonus".
Helpful wrote: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2. And as far as I'm concerned (and correct me if I'm wrong) even if it did say "gets a +x" those would in fact stack. They are just +x on top of the base and aren't typed in any form. They are just increases.
Here is how i read Aid Allies.
1) I use Aid Another to grant an attack roll bonus to my ally.
2) Aid Allies kicks in, I now select one of the given options to give to my ally. I select saving throw. The ally now has my regular Aid Another bonus to his attack roll, and a +3 bonus to his saving throw.
3) I Aid Another to grant an AC bonus to my next ally.
4) Aid Allies kicks in, I now select one of the given options to give to my ally. I select armor class. The ally now has my regular Aid Another bonus to his armor class, and a +3 bonus on top of that.
I saw the ability as a +X on top of what you already have. Why? Because it says +X not "this replaces the normal +2" which IS stated in the Helpful trait.
Two items of precedence.
Helpful (trait) states that the +4 REPLACES the +2. The Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class ability Improved Aid states that it REPLACES the +2.
Order of the Dragon does NOT state it replaces. I feel this is enough evidence to say Order of the Dragon is on top of, not in replacement of, the effects of Aid Another.
Really you're just mincing words here. The grammar on this is really definite and likely written this way to not allow staking. Both abilities are written as follows:
Helpful: you grant your ally a +4 bonus
Order of the Dragon: the ally receives a +3 bonus
The Order of the Dragon States: whenever the honor guard uses the aid another action to increase an ally’s Armor Class, the bonus to Armor Class granted by the aid another action increases by +1.
Obviously this is meant to stack. Wheras the first two are not. You either apply the bonus from Order of the Dragon, or you take the Bonus from Helpful but since neither of them increases your Aid Another bonus but instead replace it they can not be additive. There is also some clear precedence in favor of this interpretation. Outflank and the Mad Dog Barbarian's Pack attack do not stack either as both of them state you receive a +4 bonus.
Fair enough. I was just hoping someone could find precedence to confirm or deny. That's good enough for me.
The rules are an amorphous blob of development. Don't worry about them and for your game the overarching vision is what is right and what is wrong as long as communicated to your players as being just and equitable to both pcs and npcs.
Do your own thing, it can be a better role playing experience and therefor worth more.
Sounds nice in theory, but one doesn't just walk into one's own RAI=RAW and vice verse. Well, not in PFS.
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