Multiple threads have tip-toed around this, so I figured I'd put one place for us to talk about it. The most recent discussion seems to be pretty split as to whether or not adding mythic content to all future APs is a good idea.
In the end, I feel like players who want to do something besides start over again at level 1 at the end of an AP have very few options. Pathfinder has several sagas, but no epics.
And that seems strange to me, especially considering APs like Crimson Throne, Jade Regent and Shattered Star are all written assuming a familiarity with the events of RotRL with no possibility of having the same characters play in each!
I see one of two potential solutions, or a combination of the two:
I'm just putting the idea out here for now, since it would take some more thought, but for instance, play all of these on the slow XP track:
Play RotRL through the end of Thistletop.
Detour to Jade Regent to put Ameiko on the throne, and possibly finish it (I'm not familiar with the AP).
Get called back to RotRL because someone is framing the PCs for murder...go through the end of chapter 2 and finish with Xanesha.
Detour to Crimson Throne in pursuit of 'Vorel's Legacy' and possibly finish it.
Come back to RotRL and finish it.
Do all of Shattered Star.
And if the players aren't exhausted, do Wrath of the Righteous so they can retire as gods. Of course, even on the slow XP track this will require adjusting the encounters up a bit, which means there is no escaping...
For instance, in my current group I'm running RotRL parallel with Wrath.
I am dropping some of the filler encounters and buffing the other ones by raising the AC, hitpoints, and offensive capabilities of the mobs, as well as generally emphasizing the narrative elements over straight combat. Another useful trick is to take the 'unique monsters' from the SRD or monsters of the appropriate CR level and use their stats. So I may describe the creature as a Goblin attacking Sandpoint, but I'm using the stats for a CR 9 Minotaur or Troll. Liberally sprinkling in some mythic template monsters and giving 'bosses' like Karzoug full mythic tiers will also help to raise the stakes in the major encounters.
I figure if either or both of these issues can be resolved, then we'll have near infinite options for campaigns or characters to last as long as we wish. Hopefully we can get this sorted out, or at least a few workable options.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I'd love for there to be some easy "magic method" way to scale APs and adventures.
That is, without manually going through and manually reworking every stat block. Something along the ease of "level difference = x, , HPs = HPs+ x(HPs/HD); HD=HD+x; Damage=Damage*(HD+x/HD)". Something that can pretty much be done on the fly.
I wish it were that simple. Obviously it isn't :) Or at least, not any way I can work it out.
It doesn't have to have mathematically exact balance, just something that "plays ok". It might be doable with a couple of pages of tables...
Obviously one alternative is to only recalculate the major named NPCs/monsters, and replace everything else with an alternative of the required CR - if it's something physically close enough, then you could even keep as a much-experienced member of the original race.
I'd still love to be able to feed any stat block into a simple advancement process, though.
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The main problem is that scaling CR isn't the only (or even the main) issue when attempting to scale an adventure for a higher-level or lower-level group of PCs. The biggest issue is that lower-level PCs may not have the expected means to go through the adventure as intended, or that higher-level PCs may have means that allow them to bypass most of the adventure.
The main problem is that scaling CR isn't the only (or even the main) issue when attempting to scale an adventure for a higher-level or lower-level group of PCs. The biggest issue is that lower-level PCs may not have the expected means to go through the adventure as intended, or that higher-level PCs may have means that allow them to bypass most of the adventure.
That's true. I'd be a lot more comfortable with the work involved to fix those kind of things myself though (to allow subsequent APs to be played with the same PCs.)
It seems to me the more important scaling direction is up, to allow subsequent APs to be rebalanced to run with the same PCs. If something (say, a standalone module) you want to run with that group is rated too high, you can wait until the appropriate time to run it later on. If it's rated too low, you've missed the opportunity to run it.
All current adventure paths (basically from Kingmaker on) have a several page "Continuing the Campaign" section in the last installment, providing some suggestions (and even a stat bloc or two) on how to keep playing past the fully detailed adventure path climax. All it needs is a bit of fleshing out by the GM.
All current adventure paths (basically from Kingmaker on) have a several page "Continuing the Campaign" section in the last installment, providing some suggestions (and even a stat bloc or two) on how to keep playing past the fully detailed adventure path climax. All it needs is a bit of fleshing out by the GM.
That's okay for continuing past using that particular AP. However, what if I want to run a second AP for that same group of PCs, running from - say - L17-25.
Hmm, I wonder if a spreadsheet that allowed you to input a stat block and desired CR of the creature would be feasible?
I agree that it's up to the DM to keep the players on the intended path, or at least adjust to hit the high points if they do something unexpected. Assuming the real selling point of doing subsequent APs with high level characters is for the story more than the power increase they shouldn't fight following the plot line too hard.
I agree it should be possible as a set of tables. Really it's not SO different from the existing random encounter tables. As I've mentioned before, the way I do it is take a higher CR monster and just reskin it. I might describe a simple zombie, but use the stats for a CR 8 Vampire Enforcer. This has worked well for me, unless it's got some crazy special abilities like tentacles or a breath weapon that wouldn't make sense to use, obviously.
I could see it being a grid, not so different from the player advancement table. Instead of level 1-20 it's CR 1-20. Each new CR adds X hit dice, Y to AC, a new special attack or use for the special attack as CR increases. I'll dig around the monstrous manuals; they may have already published rules for how to create mobs, and it's essentially the same thing.
*Shrug*
I'm really happy with how it works now. Most of my players were ready to retire after ending Rise of the Runelords... I couldn't imagine doing another two Adventure Paths with the same characters. Some wanted to do more stuff, so we had a few more adventures that wrapped everything up.
I feel like once you get past the big adventure paths, a character's further group should be mostly dependent on what kind of stuff they want to do, not exactly responding to the events of other Adventure Paths. I've finished two APs before, and in both cases when players wanted to keep playing, it was pretty simple to keep adventuring. They were deciding what adventures to go on, I was just facilitating it.
Generally, the beginning of an AP assumes your characters are just run-of-the-mill fellows who get some kind of a break that leads to the adventure. It wouldn't work at all to have level 16 characters in the beginning of, say, Skulls and shackles. The party wizard would just cast 'overland flight' on everyone, except the druid who jumps overboard and wild-shapes into a huge water elemental and capsizes the ship.
It would definitely work with some APs more than others (I'm not familiar with Skull and Shackles) but for instance RotRL could easily have ogres or trolls attacking Sandpoint instead of Goblins. Or still have it be Goblins that the PCs massacre in a round, but still have to do the leg work to track down Nualia who's been bumped to CR20; she just sent the small fries since that's what she had on hand.
It definitely works better for the APs that are more about intrigue than fighting, but even the fights can be scaled. It's not *that* hard to conceptualize.
I have made a discovery:The Monster Advancer seems to be exactly what we are discussing. It would still take a bit of preplanning and legwork for the DM, but at least in the short term it seems like it would get it done.
Especially if you use my 'face lift' approach to mob creation.
A word of warning, though: It seems to work about half the time I click it, but it might be a local issue with my machine.
Having a sequel AP (akin to David Edding's sequel series) doesn't work for the APs because of that low-level start. What works is mixing the two together, and only sometimes. For instance, mixing both Runelords and Jade Regent can work, especially if you slow the advancement of characters going through Jade Regent and then have the characters return to Sandpoint to continue their adventures.
There is of course another alternative: expand on an AP. Set the players to Slow Advancement and add in various modules or your own content to further grow the adventure. A case in point is when I ran "Night Below" in 2nd ed. AD&D. I started out with the classic Dungeon Magazine adventure "Trouble at Grogs," went on to Milborne (and had the ambush happen after they had gone through town - it made more sense that way to have the slavers scout out the group ahead of time to learn which were spellcasters), THEN at a later point they went through several other Dungeon Magazine adventures (Lady of the Mists, I believe, and its sequel) and tossed in several Ravenloft adventures from Dungeon that resulted in the group inadvertently yoinking a realm out of Ravenloft (or at least a reflection of that realm - it would reform later because the Lords of Ravenloft don't just allow one of their toys to just die and cease suffering that way) before finally returning to the Night Below.
Also, there were elements I tossed in there myself based partly on my own plots and partly on the party realizing things that I hadn't intended, my smiling and shrugging, and then writing down the idea after the game. Being able to flow with party punches and integrate them into the game is a sign of a good GM - and a good group if they're able to theorize about such innovating elements.
Of course, part of this was I didn't give XPs for treasure so I had to pad things otherwise. ;)
So ultimately, it depends. How much work do you want to do? If you are as lazy as I am these days, then you don't want to work hard to expand on an AP and will keep it as-is. Then you're not going to have the uber-lengthy AP you want. But you're not working as hard.
Given APs often last for a year or more when playing them (few of us can afford the time to run eight-hour games weekly which would be needed in many cases to run a six-book AP in under half a year), after a year you may very well find the players aren't interested in keeping up with their characters and want to do something new. Of course it also depends on your GMing style - if you're particularly lethal and players aren't invested in their characters, obviously there may not be player fatigue. But for those players who have stuck with the same character for a year? It may be time to let that Great Hero retire and move on to something else.
Given APs often last for a year or more when playing them (few of us can afford the time to run eight-hour games weekly which would be needed in many cases to run a six-book AP in under half a year), after a year you may very well find the players aren't interested in keeping up with their characters and want to do something new. Of course it also depends on your GMing style - if you're particularly lethal and players aren't invested in their characters, obviously there may not be player fatigue. But for those players who have stuck with the same character for a year? It may be time to let that Great Hero retire and move on to something else.
My long-term group is very stuck in our ways, I think the oldest character has been around for around 5-6 years of real time.
We don't play the same game constantly, though. We'll come back to our was-3.5-now-Pathfinder campaign often, and between adventures we'll do other things so as not to get bored of same old same old. I guess in a way it's like running a season of a TV show, then coming back to it year after year :) The breaks between help the longevity quite a bit.
Personally, I'd love to run a huge epic of multiple APs over a few years with the same characters. I know its unlikely to ever be something enough people want to do for Paizo to want to spend time on it, though.
I think I'm going to probably stick to my original plan, though, if the group agrees to it. We'll run a few APs with new characters for each one, then in a few years time we'll have each player grab one of their surviving L16-17 PCs for a grand finale adventure I'll either write or convert (which also makes it easier to deal with some people having left or joined the group by that time.)
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I don't know how much Ameiko is involved in Runelords after book 1, but you could conceivably run it timeline wise as follows:
Runelords Book 1
Second Darkness, Crimson Throne, Jade Regent, Runelords 2-6 simultaneously
Shattered Star
Grand Finale
Don't know how long time wise Jade Regent takes, but assuming easy telepo back to Varisia, you could conceivably be hitting Shattered Star sometime between the end of Runelords and the end of Jade Regent.
Alternatively, if Ameiko is needed throughout Runelords...
Runelords
Second Darkness, Crimson Throne
Jade Regent
Shattered Star & Concluding Jade Regent
Grand Finale
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Page 289 in the Beastiary 4 has a 'monsters statistics by CR' table that is exactly what we were talking about earlier. I just got my hands on it today, and I think it's all I need to be able to adjust these encounters. Once I have a better handle on the templates, especially the mythic one.
Ameiko isn't involved in Runelords at all after you save her, so your timeline would work.
I'm with you Matt...we play the long game. And hey, my players really may be ready to retire after RotRL / Wrath...but I would still like to have *the choice* to do more, which right now doesn't really exist.
And Tangent...another Night Below vet? Not too many of us still floating around, I don't think!
Before I found Reign of Winter (or as I jokingly call it, the Skyrim Campaign) I was going to put my group through Night Below again. Only one of the players is a veteran from my past NB campaign. But to be honest, my heart wasn't really into it. And let's face it. Paizo puts out a better and more interesting product with their APs than Night Below.
but I would still like to have *the choice* to do more, which right now doesn't really exist.
That's only if you require published adventures/campaigns to do more. If you create your own content, you can continue as far as you and your players are willing to go. For instance, I've both heard of and read journals of 3.5 campaigns that have had the PCs reaching levels of 50+.
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but I would still like to have *the choice* to do more, which right now doesn't really exist.
That's only if you require published adventures/campaigns to do more. If you create your own content, you can continue as far as you and your players are willing to go. For instance, I've both heard of and read journals of 3.5 campaigns that have had the PCs reaching levels of 50+.
I have a Marvel Super Heroes game where the players are battling an invasion Cyber-Sith invasion with Borg/Dalek hybrid troops. The last thing that happened was them rescuing Yoda and Sarek of the Green Jedi Corps from Darth Sinestro. So, I know a thing or two about homebrew.
There are several advantages of APs: Professionally produced maps, art, lore, everything. And even I, the DM, can be surprised by the narrative unfolds, as well as how the players react to it.
This looks like a job for E6!
There are several advantages of APs: Professionally produced maps, art, lore, everything. And even I, the DM, can be surprised by the narrative unfolds, as well as how the players react to it.
Of course. I, too, love Paizo's APs for the same reasons. But in terms of continuing a campaign from finishing one AP to starting another, I just don't think the narrative will work very well.
That's primarily because the characters will come from a "save the world"-scenario, into a "save this one village/town"-scenario (to use RotRL as an example). The scope of the scenario would seem rather anticlimactic unless considerable amounts of effort is put into altering the story (for instance, by using the village/town where one of the PCs or his family actually lives).
But then (to continue the same example) you might not be able to use Sandpoint as is, you'd almost certainly have to move it to reflect the backstory of the PC in question, and then the rest of the campaign would likely require a lot of work in order for the story to unfold in similar fashion to the written AP.
If you can make it work, then that's obviously great. Personally, I think the amount of work you'd have to put in to make the narrative work without seeming forced would outweigh the benefit of using an AP as the starting point.
However, I believe that combining APs and running them "within" eachother (as per your other suggestion) would be a lot easier to do than to run one AP after another. Especially if you slow levelling down (either by using the slow XP chart or simply choosing levelling-points). Doing it that way would also eliminate most of the need for scaling CRs by large amounts, instead reducing scaling-needs to no more than 2-3 CRs up or down, if even that.
There is one possibility: Go from Jade Regent (and have the players end at level 10) and switch over to Reign of Winter. The Winter Portal is in their new land, and they go over to deal with the local incursion. Then they find out about Baba Yaga. You'd have to up the power of some initial foes (first two books) but eventually things would even out.
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Well, since I'm living this vs just posting about it, let me tell you what happened.
I had them enter Kenabre as strangers (where word had spread about them in Magnimar). When the demon attack hit, rather than do it as a flashback as the AP suggested, I had them be in the town and in the middle of the fight. They are level 7, but I hit them with a CR 17 demon with the express purpose of having them all get killed so that Terendeliv would "save" them, and they'd end up unconscious in the hole like the AP starts.
Of course, my Bard--who has astonishingly good luck--tries charm monster on it and I roll a 1 on the save, so I had them get wiped out in an explosion when Terendeliv goes down fighting Khorramzadeh. They woke up in the hole at 0 hit points with only the Barb with Die Hard still conscious, and their NPC healer missing. He woke the cleric with a potion of Cure Moderate, and I had his channel energy awaken the 3 NPCs who are supposed to be down there with them.
Long story short, even though the players are aware we're running two APs dropping in some narrative threads to connect them has helped a lot.
Dropping them out of their element and beat within an inch of their lives helped set the right tone. I'll use that table from the Beastiary 4 to buff the encounters to CR 10 or so, since I want them to stay scared, and this is a big group.
I'm also going to have newly resurrected and now all-demon Nualia and Xanesha make a comeback to grief them a bit later to strengthen the tie, and I'll probably have some demons show up on the way to Xin-Shalast to give them a more cohesive experience. No matter what, at least conceptually it works.
This looks like a job for E6!
That's a choice.
Except you don't have any of your cool stuff by level 6 now, do you?Maybe e10 or 12 ;)
I started tracking our progress through Running Wrath of the Righteous parallel with RotRL in another thread, and it's been working pretty well. Even though the players are aware we are running two different APs at the same time, I replaced Arreelu Vorlesh with a newly-resurrected Nualia to help bridge the continuity gaps. After the Skinsaw Murders one of the character's gods appeared and told him evil was attacking the world on two fronts and that they had to stop it, and teleported them to Kenabres. Mischief managed.
The character finished the World Wound Incursion with 8 levels and 1 tier. I'm having to space the levels out much further, since you might recall this is a large group of 8-10 players and I'm already having to bump up the encounters to account for that. I'm also going to have to add mythic elements to RotRL to keep them from steamrolling everything.
In order to keep things interesting, and on-pace, I think I'm mostly going to award tiers during Wrath adventures, and levels during RoTRL adventure. It's true that I won't want them to get bored waiting too long between levels, but the tiers are a pretty nice boost in power, not to mention never feeling challenged will prove far more boring in the long run.
I synced this up with the level it says the characters should be at in RotRL, and the posted Wrath summaries, since the whole thing hasn't been published yet. The only problem I see is if we move so fast all of Wrath doesn't get released in time, but that's probably no big deal.
So knowing now that they are supposed to end Sword of Valor 9th level / 3 tiers, I think I'll do it like this going forward (Bold are RotRL Adventures):
Up through Sword of Valor - 8th level / 3 tiers
Hook Mountain Massacre: to 10th level.
Fortress of the Stone Giants: to 12th level
Demon's Heresy to 12th level / 5 mythic tiers (Where it levels out)
Midnight Isles to 13th-level / 7 mythic tiers
Sins of the Saviors to 15th level.
Spires of Xin-Shalast: to 17th level.
Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth: to 18th-level / 9 mythic tiers.
City of Locusts: through Level 20 / 10 tiers and GODHOOD!
I don't think it will really be possible to scale a standard AP for Level 20 / Tier 10 characters, but conceptually, the idea of running one group through at least 2 APs works.
One thing I've considered is to at the end of RotR to (if the players are up to it) have them go into a state of suspended animation, caught between worlds because of the destruction of the Runewell. They'll wake up when the Winter Portal in Helgren opens, drawn there, at only 10th level and whatever equipment survived the Runewell (ie, I'm planning on hitting them with a Disjunction or two; Karzoug ain't dumb after all!) and then gaining two levels each book of Reign of Winter (scaling the encounters up naturally). I'll probably let them have gained upward of 8 Mythic Tiers by the end of the uber-campaign (probably at 4 Tiers for defeating Karzoug).
The only real hiccup is if the players would be willing to continue running their characters having been stripped of seven or eight levels. But seeing we're just now entering Book 3 of RotR that probably won't be an issue for some time. And for all I know, the campaign might not even last to the end of Runelords.
I still think it would be an interesting exercise to run Wrath of the Righteous as a 2nd campaign post-another AP, with the only advancement up to 20 (if PCs haven't already gotten there) and mythic tiers.
Would require some work, but I think that would be a suitably epic ending to a PC lifespan. Perhaps even literally.
@Tangent I think you'd be better served just scaling the encounters, I find it hard to believe they'll want to start over with the exact same characters. Make it high end, or reroll IMHO.
@Cthuludrew (awesome name, btw)the events of Wrath definitely lend themselves to epic level players more logically than level 1 players. Since as it stands now, in section one they basically save Kenabres by luck, and keep having more and more responsibility thrust upon them. Like oh hay, you're level 6...please save us all!
But if it so happens that legendary adventurers were in town when the attack hit, something the demons weren't even aware of, then what happens next makes sense. And the mythic tiers give them something to look forward to and stay engaged for.
ecw, it's not starting over. It's being reduced to the almost-halfway point - 10th level. That is still quite powerful, mind you, with 5th level spells and the like. But it also depends on if they want to do this or not. Two of my players are already in my other Reign of Winter campaign - rewriting it for 10th level (and up) would alter things enough so that they have no real idea of what's coming (and I can always skip scenes and the like). And it would provide them a chance to continue leveling their characters up to 20th level.
ecw, it's not starting over. It's being reduced to the almost-halfway point - 10th level. That is still quite powerful, mind you, with 5th level spells and the like. But it also depends on if they want to do this or not. Two of my players are already in my other Reign of Winter campaign - rewriting it for 10th level (and up) would alter things enough so that they have no real idea of what's coming (and I can always skip scenes and the like). And it would provide them a chance to continue leveling their characters up to 20th level.
Yes, I definitely think it works conceptually, I just don't think climbing that same hill again sounds like that much fun. But I guess they could multi-class, make other decisions, or who knows what else. But, my nature is to be an end-gamer; I hate leveling, I always have. I hate it in D&D, I hated it in Everquest and WoW, and anywhere else I can think of. Except in WoW the 'end-game' is where the game began, whereas in Pathfinder the end-game is where it ENDS, lol.
Hey what about the old AD&D Dual Class system? (When you picked up a second class but couldn't use any features from the first class until you equaled or exceeded it in level, for you young bucks out there). Maybe you bump them back to 10 with a different class or PRC, and when they get back to 20 they are essentially epic / gestalt characters with 30 or 40 total levels? It would definitely knock out a third AP, but at least there would be some greater reward for their efforts. Just a thought, I suppose.
Because 17th or 18th level characters are so powerful that they'd not need to free Baba Yaga. They'd go from Helgren to Irrisen and start destroying its capital city. And they'd do a lot of damage before dying. I'd much rather have them do the actual AP.
If the players aren't interested, then the game just ends. They defeated Karzoug. There was much rejoicing. But I do know I've heard grousing from players when commenting on eventually running another campaign using new characters because they like their current ones. And hey, it's well over a year in the future as they're only starting the third book of RotR.
One thing I've considered is to at the end of RotR to (if the players are up to it) have them go into a state of suspended animation, caught between worlds because of the destruction of the Runewell. They'll wake up when the Winter Portal in Helgren opens, drawn there, at only 10th level and whatever equipment survived the Runewell (ie, I'm planning on hitting them with a Disjunction or two; Karzoug ain't dumb after all!) and then gaining two levels each book of Reign of Winter (scaling the encounters up naturally). I'll probably let them have gained upward of 8 Mythic Tiers by the end of the uber-campaign (probably at 4 Tiers for defeating Karzoug).
The only real hiccup is if the players would be willing to continue running their characters having been stripped of seven or eight levels. But seeing we're just now entering Book 3 of RotR that probably won't be an issue for some time. And for all I know, the campaign might not even last to the end of Runelords.
Yeah, I think you've got a good concept going...especially if you can tie it into a final malicious move from Karzoug, or from the big bad of Winds of Winter, or even the Great Old One Mhar to interweave the narratives. I'm definitely interested to hear how it shakes out...assuming you aren't all very much over it by then!
Now that part 4 of Wrath of the Righteous has come out, I'm not worried about my group moving too quickly. So I gave them the option of just sticking with Wrath, and they opted to keep doing both APs.
They are already asking how long they'll get to fight at level 20 / tier 10, which makes sense, really. You climb this big hill, get neat new capstone abilities and then...retire. Kind of anti-climactic, imho.
I'm hoping Part 6 of Wrath at least has them hit level 20 / tier 10 at least half way through the module so they can use their new powers for the final battle.
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I'm hoping Part 6 of Wrath at least has them hit level 20 / tier 10 at least half way through the module so they can use their new powers for the final battle.
I believe James Jacobs mentioned somewhere that this was the intent. PCs will hit 20/10 earlier to give them time to enjoy it a little. And based on the foreshadowing...I'm betting they'll need every little advantage they can get. Wrath #6 is sounding like it's shaping up to be brutal! (Yay!)
I'm hoping Part 6 of Wrath at least has them hit level 20 / tier 10 at least half way through the module so they can use their new powers for the final battle.I believe James Jacobs mentioned somewhere that this was the intent. PCs will hit 20/10 earlier to give them time to enjoy it a little. And based on the foreshadowing...I'm betting they'll need every little advantage they can get. Wrath #6 is sounding like it's shaping up to be brutal! (Yay!)
Yes, the encounter with Rune Lord Karzoug is pretty intense (and will be more intense with him having 10 tiers when my group faces him) so Baphomet and Deskari shouldn't be slouches. These PCs need to earn their Godhood!
It's probably a bit obvious, but I'm very emotionally invested in this concept! Again, it would take some effort from the DM, but a group could do Rune Lords, Crimson Throne and Second Darkness earning roughly one level per chapter before starting Shattered Star around level 18 or so. This would definitely take a group that was more committed to plot and story than to power gaming, though!
Another way would be to give 1-2 levels per chapter, having them hit max level around the end of the second AP they run and spend the next two at max level. Still going to be some work for the DM (no way around that) but the character would get to spend some time using their max level abilities. Once again, you've need players who are engaged in the narrative since they wouldn't have new powers to look forward to. And in the (admittedly unlikely) event they still wanted more at the end of Shattered Star, you do Wrath of the Righteous straight through so that they can earn their 10 mythic tiers, and have them retire not just as legends, but as gods.
At any rate, I did some playing around with the Monster Advancer (full disclosure, it does seem to just stop working at random) and I took a crack at advancing Goblins for a group that was starting Rise of the Rune Lords *after* completing another AP. My logic was if I can make goblins a challenge to level 20 characters, any mob can be made into a challenge.
Goblin, Barbarian 10 CR 13
Usually Neutral Evil Small Humanoid Ref (Goblinoid)
Init +2 (+2 dex)
AC 13 FF 11 Touch 13
(+1 size, +2 Dex)
HD: 25
HP: 207 (15d8+45, 10d12+30)
Fort +15 Ref +14 Will +6
Speed 30ft
Base Atk +21 Grp +19
Attack: Morningstar +24 1d6+2
Attack: Short bow +24 1d4+0
Full Attack: Morningstar +24/+19/+14/+9/+4 1d6+2
Full Attack: Short bow +24/+19/+14/+9/+4 1d4+0
Space 5 ft. (1 squares) Reach 5 ft. (1 squares)
Abilities Str 15(+2) Dex 15(+2) Con 16(+3) Int 12(+1) Wis 6(-2) Cha 6(-2)
Stat Points Gained From Advancement: 6
Skill Points: 104
Skills: Climb +8, Craft(Weaponsmithing) +7, Handle Animal +4, Hide +8, Intimidate +4, Jump +8, Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Ride +8, Spot +4, Survival +4, Swim +8
Gear:
Total Cost of Gear: 0gp
Darkvision(Su): 60ft
Rage(Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day.
Level Uses/day
1 1
4 2
8 3
12 4
16 5
20 6
In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian's hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below). A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else's action.
Improved Uncanny Dodge(Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.
Trap Sense(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise by +1 every three barbarian levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge(Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Fast movement(Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn.
Damage Reduction(Ex): 1/-
Illiteracy(Ex): Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.
I'd probably boost their AC a bit, but I think a dozen of these would be a challenge even to level 17+ characters.
This must be a 3.5 monster advancer. 15th level barbarians should have 7 rage powers, DR3/-, and do not necessarily have illiteracy (although goblins probably do). Unless you're playing ROTRL with 3.5 rules and 3.5 PCs, these goblin barbarians will be significantly less powerful than a 15th level barbarian built under PFRPG rules.
I clicked for the Pathfinder version of the Monster Advancer, but like I said...it's pretty buggy.
There's a 'quickened' version that lets you add templates quickly, but no other modifications like adding class levels, etc.
I am planning something similar with a "megacampaign" but I do not plan on using the Pathfinder rules. I will be using the Fate RPG rules (via Dresden Files RPG) and will be blending and hack-off unwanted storyline elements as I run the first of all the modules, than the second, the third, etc etc. I may pepper in some other things as well, but it will be the epic of all epics.
If you happen to have herolab, you can use that to do monsters too.
I wanted to give you an example of a good PFRPG barbarian is capable of.
Here's a good 15th level goblin barbarian, build with heroic ability scores, but a little lower WBL to keep the players from getting a huge influx of cash. He's built as a feral gnasher with beast totem to get a good amount of natural attacks, or he may use the +1 furious greatclub, depending on how he feels. He'll drink his barkskin and bull's strength potions before attacking (made by his friendly tribal shaman) and activate his cloak of fangs when he wants to bite. The stats below reflect this, and power attack. If you throw more than a couple of these at a single PC at once, death is quite possible.
Male Goblin Barbarian (Feral Gnasher) 15
NE Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 21 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +1 size, +6 natural)
hp 215 (15d12+105)
Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +12 (+4 vs. enchantments); +5 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies', +2 trait bonus vs. confusion, insanity, and fear effects
Defensive Abilities indomitable will, uncanny dodge; DR 3/—
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 furious darkwood greatclub +21/+16/+11 (1d8+24/×2) and bite +15 (2d6+10/×3 plus grab) OR
. . bite +20 (2d6+10/×3 plus grab) and 2 claws +20 (1d6+10/×3)
. . masterwork dagger +19/+14/+9 (1d3+14/19-20/×2)
Ranged masterwork dagger +22/+17/+12 (1d3+6/19-20/×2)
. . masterwork javelin +22/+17/+12 (1d4+6/×2)
Special Attacks grab (Huge), pounce, rage, rage powers (beast totem +4 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, ferocious mount, ferocious mount, greater, superstition +5, witch hunter [+4])
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Statistics
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Str 23, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +15; CMB +16 (+20 grapple); CMD 33
Feats Extra Rage Power, Improved Iron Will, Improvised Weapon Mastery, Iron Will, Power Attack, Throw Anything, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Traits deft dodger, unhinged mentality
Skills Acrobatics +23, Climb +17, Handle Animal +2, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (nature) +4, Perception +10, Ride +16, Stealth +27, Survival +5, Swim +13
Languages Goblin
SQ impromptu armament, lockjaw, wicked improvisation
Combat Gear Cloak of fangs (5 rounds/day), Potion of barkskin +2, Potion of bull's strength, Potion of cure moderate wounds (2); Other Gear +3 Studded leather armor, +1 Furious Darkwood Greatclub, Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Javelin (2), Amulet of mighty fists +1, 37 GP
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Cloak of fangs (5 rounds/day) Gain 1d6 bite attack (1d4 if small), or increase existing bite attack.
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Ferocious Mount (Ex) Your mount rages, too.
Ferocious Mount, Greater (Ex) Mount gains constant rage powers.
Grab: Bite (Huge) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Impromptu Armament (Ex) Can pick up an unattended object you can wield in one hand as free action.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Lockjaw (Ex) You are not grappled when grappling with your bite attack.
Improvised Weapon Mastery Proficient with all improvised weapons, increase their damage category 1 step, and grant them a threat range of 19-20.
Indomitable Will (Ex) While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (34 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Superstition +5 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Unhinged Mentality +2 to save vs confusion, insanity, and fear effects.
Wicked Improvisation +2 (Ex) Bonus on dmg rolls when using nat attks or imp weaps while raging.
Witch Hunter (+4) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.
@Dundjinn (awesome name, btw) Which campaigns are you planning to use, and which bits are you planning to skip? You probably can pair out about 30-40% of any given AP as filler...especially if you drop in an especially savvy NPC to guide them.
@Paladin I do have Herolab...what function or feature did you use to do that? Since you're right, replacing the goblins from opening attack on Sandpoint in RotRL with those would be quite challenging even for a max level group. Throw in some teamwork feats for flavor and give mythic tiers to the goblin commander and you'd have quite an event on your hands.
I think it would be easier to make your own add on to the campaign based on the suggestions at the end of AP's.
I am planning on using Carrion Crown for the outsider/undead elements, Reign of Winter/a bit of Kingmaker for the Fae elements, and Rise of the Runelords/Star for the sin-elements. I may pepper a bunch more story bits in there using like the end of Curse, parts of Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, and Wrath to strengthen the story elements of each of the core story.
Atleast that is the plan as I have just started planning things out and need to reread all the modules again to identify what I want to use where and what I want to drop.
I just created a new goblin npc with 15 levels and assigned them all to barbarian, then assigned feats, abilities and increases, rage powers, etc.
@Pala: Cool
@Dundjinn: That is an interesting approach, it didn't occur to me to mix the components of the AP rather than run them in sequence. Well, that's not true, I'm alternating chapters with my group, I mean mixing the elements of individual chapters. I'd like to hear what you come up with.
@Wraithstrike: The point isn't having something else to do after an AP, that is easy. The point is to be able to have a single group be able to experience more of the lore of the game, especially for APs that have related elements, like RotRL and Jade Reagent / Crimson Throne / Shattered Star. As of now the APs are counting on the players metagaming knowledge to make the most of the experience, and to me that is an oversight.
You can always run them with a time lapse as the next generation of heroes (children of the original) make their way into the world having grown up on the tales and history of their parents that way they have much of the knowledge of the game world that their parents had but are level appropriate for a new adventure! I have always been fond of that appoarch as a player... Also it allows you to offer legacy weapons (heirlooms) from their parents down the road or have one of them save them or one of them go bad etc. I have done this many times as a GM as well.
@ecw I will drop more information as I get it together. I am currently mixing elements of Curse and Kingmaker for a game. I enjoy mash - up adventure paths more than I should. I also have an unhealthy obsession with reading other people's mash-ups lol
Which oddly extends to people using other systems and vastly different settings to run the APs as well.
@Dun do you know of a message board or website, or just from interacting with people?
Alternating between RotRL and Wrath in 2 chapter chunks as I detailed above has been working well for us. With these particular adventures I don't think I could weave stone giants attacking an outpost with Kenabres getting destroyed, but I definitely see how it would work with other APs, like setting Crimson Throne in Magnimar instead, etc.
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Interesting ideas here.
Easiest way around the problem of what XP path to use is to not use one at all. When I run an AP I never track XP, there is no need for it ever, really. Just tell your players when they level up.
I would warn them ahead of time that leveling will be VERY SLOW and ad hoc to fit the story as needed.
Agreed, Krome. I also give out levels (and tiers) at pre-determined intervals, and it works out fine. My players can get impatient, but they wouldn't be happy face rolling things with nothing else to look forward to, either.
I have some ideas for your development.
The first is ... give playes some time in game. like weeks to recover, buy stuff or roleplay. they will need that time.
Then, about the campaign enemies:
First: unify the karzoug/demons treat. We have a demon lord called areshkagal that is lamashtu daughter and sponsor of GREED and Portals. And Karzoug posses a giga portal. Now, if that portal was not a time gate, but a warp gate to teleport his army anywhere he wants, would that not be awesome? He could well have reached a treaty with the demons from the worldwound to basically split Avistan in half (sure, he plans to doublecross them, like Oliphant in the face). He may redirect the gate inside the city of IZ and allow deskari army to fly down in Varisia backed up by rune-slaved giants (while he makes his army, then closes the portal, defeats the demon himself and becomes adored like a savior from varisia cities!). IT 30 +, after all.
Second: unify runelords and shattered star. You know why the pathfinders are making together the Sihedron? Because Karzoug what's that. He purposely given mormukain the knowledge because he wanted people to fear the "evil runelords", as later inspired through his agents (xadesha) the sihedron recostruction. He wants the artifact because, he believes, it will give him control over the many, many creatures bounded inside the thassilonian ruins (i'm talking about actualy armies of devil, demons and angels). Also, he may be aware of Xin and deside his clockwork army too, actively helping pcs and trying to be the good guy! just think about him as "aroden II, with more tatoos".
Third: empasize the lamashtu treat. Instead of the hook of mountain massacre skip the ogres entirely: the black maggha is on the loose, and now it walks! It's a move from the lamashtu church because the goddess fears that with the worldwound her influence may decline in favor of deskari and pazuzu. Therefore, she is making as much massacres she can to spread fear throught her herald. One of these moves is to resurrect one of his "hierophants", that was locked inside the weapon upon which sandpoint has been build. I'm thinking about a certain vrock from demons revisited. If the lamashtu element does not like you, swifth with lissala (karzoug is trying to make that religion return so that he can expand his control over rune magic). Nualia was used by them, and they also wish more demons because more demons = way, way more sin to muster for the goddess return (by they not informed point of view).
Sorry for the bit of thread necro, but I was off the forums for a while..but the game has continued! And thanks for the pointers there, Pnakotus; those are all really great ideas.
I've been chronicling our adventure in another thread, but I figured I'd post it here, too, since what I've found is relevant to this discussion, too:
Six months later
We've been playing consistently, 2-4 times a month and we'll be finishing Fortress of the Stone Giants Wednesday. The biggest challenges I've run into are first and foremost: TIME. This has been a long road. We are 13 months into playing, but just over half way done with the adventure path(s). They are about to hit level 12, and after this the levels will flow a bit faster, and as their relative level of fire power increases I expect things to move along faster. My once football team sized group has whittled down to a much more committed (and manageable) 5 person party. It's been really hard not giving them levels sooner than I'd planned, especially when they've worked hard to overcome certain challenges, but it's been absolutely vital to stick to the plan, because of this next point:
It has been absolutely necessary to adjust the mobs. If I gave out levels too easily, I'd just have to adjust them more and end up with a big power plateau at the end. At first I picked mythic monsters to drop into Rune Lords, but I feel like the mythic monsters that have been published as stand alones don't scale very well and tended to get zerged. Instead, I pick monsters from the unique monster list and replace ALL the garbage mobs with them. So for instance, every stone giant in Jorgenfist had the stats of a CR 17 Fiendish Gnarled Frost Giant Barbarians. Sometimes I just bumped the standard mobs to max HP and raised their AC by 3-5 points and that was enough.
Also I tend to layer encounters, so where a given dungeon might have 3 or 4 mini bosses before the big fight, I'll have all the lieutenants and the big bad in a single room, for a big pitched battle. I've already decided when they fight Karzoug he's going to split himself into duplicates to fight them all 1 on 1, all while having a dragon flying by breathing fire and giants throwing boulders...it *should* be an encounter worthy of mythic heroes!
In short, the plan is working, and I still think running a super campaign is worthwhile,...