Large Tiefling rules.


Rules Questions


Ok Here is my question. I was creating an Oni-Spawned Tiefling and wanted to know what would be the rules for making him Nonhuman (Ogre so he is Large in size). As I have read the rules state that he gets none of the racial abilities but does get the size bonuses and penalties. So Here is what I dont understand.

If I use the Advanced Race to make this Large his stats become:
-+4str, -2dex, +2wis, -2cha and would get -1 attack and AC and +1 CMD/CMB and no reach.

However if he could be enlarged with Enlarge Person he would be:
- +4str, -2dex, +2wis, -2cha and would get -1att/ac and would get 10ft reach.

And lastly if go by monster advancement chart for medium creature going to large:

- +10str, -2dex, +4con, +2wis, -2cha and would get +1att/ac and +2NA and 10ft reach.

SO what is the correct chart to use? Im confused as to which option I can take that is legal for play (if DM is ok with of course). Enlarge Person will not work on a Tiefling I just added it because it shows what a spell would do in increasing size. Do I use the Advanced Race options to make a creature large or do I use the Monster Chart for size increases? Im confused as they both seem correct. Now again this is for an Ogre Tiefling as per the rules for Nonhuman Tieflings so I get the size Large.


Unfortunately, I don't think that any of these are the case. If I am correct about which rules you are referring to (don't have the specific book, just using the srd, so forgive me if I get the source wrong)

Blood of Fiends? Bastards of Erebus? wrote:
In game terms, the difference between non-human tieflings and human tieflings is purely a matter of size. Unless they have specific tiefling-related size modifiers, the tieflings of each of these races are the same size as their non-fiendish ancestors. They gain any of the bonuses or penalties related to that size, but gain no racial bonuses except those of the tiefling; beyond size, their humanoid ancestry is purely cosmetic.

So your stats would be +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA, just like any other onispawn. You would recieve a -1 to hit, but get +1 cmb/cmd, and you would have 10 foot reach. So still a rather good plus overall. It might seem odd, but this is all in the favor of game balance. Some might suspect munchining with the stats you were presenting

Now you just have to convince your GM to let you play a demonic ogre in his game. Goodie. But the rules are.... enough to make some case for just RAW stuff. I know for a fact that this wouldn't fly in PFS since I am pretty sure they don't let you change sizes like this (even to small)

Contributor

I agree with lemeres. Look up in the Advanced Race Guide what the cost to boost a creature from Medium size to Large size is and simply apply that to the oni-spawn tiefling. No other modifications are required, especially if you are keeping him a 0-HD race. Remember that actual ogres advance by Hit Dice, not class level.

That said, I believe there's an ogrekin template or something you could use if you're feeling lazy or wanting more of a stat boost.


Thats up to your GM.

At best I'd allow you to be Large per the Enlarge person ability, that's it. You get enough benefit from that.

Those advanced and large monstrous upgrades come at a significant resource cost normally (+1CR or a pile of advancement points) so if you want a 'free' upscale you'd be paying for it. By way of example, an Ogre (as in a plain vanilla one) is about a 40 point build - a standard race is 10, you'd notionally have to be three levels behind your party for 'parity'.

It makes THAT much difference.


This is why I am asking opinions.. and would also like some official ruling on what if any thing you would get for being a Tiefling Oni_spawn that is of Ogre decent and not human. I know they are large as their parent race is large. But what officially are considered Size bonuses... is it just the negative to hit and ac and bonus to cmb/cmd... is it the reach... is it the na and stat increases.... This is what I want officially ruled on... so I can be sure to know what to do.. and to be aware of. It may be munchkin... but thats not the point.. I just want to clarify the rules.


Typically an increase in size also grants an increase to the Str stat and a negative to Dex.

Liberty's Edge

The size bonus and penalties for large size are as lemeres said. (Don't forget you'd also be able to wield larger weapons, but pay more for armor IIRC.) The bonuses to strength and penalties to dexterity are for a change in size, they are not part of being large size itself. That said, this wouldn't fly at any game I ran, large size is a HUGE advantage over medium size and I don't believe the RAW or the RAI is to allow tieflings of an ancestry other than what are normally playable.


The rules for size, space, and reach can be found: Here

Edit: missed a table further down.But I would imagine that one's innate size would be "racial modifiers", and the language I quoted is against that. Also, since the table is about "adjustments from size changes", one could argue that it only applies to when you are changing into a size you are unfamiliar with.

And shadowcatx, being large is not a huge advantage. You would need to be a size category bigger for that *preemptively ducks to avoid rotten tomatoes*


There are no 'official rules' for a Tiefling Oni-Spawn as a Large 'ogre' type. This is why you have rules in the ARG for DIY your own race.

What you are doing is making a customised race.

Your options for bringing this into play are:

Simply apply size Large in line with Enlarge person.

OR, (for a level adjustment by your GM)

Apply the Fiendish template to an Ogre and play as a monstrous creature.

Apply the Giant template to a Tiefling. (will be level adjusted

Create the custom race via the ARG (though you will hit significant level penatlies doing so)

Bear in mind that Tieflings already start out as a higher race cost than usual to begin with, so stacking more stuff on top will get pretty hefty.


So what I am hearing is that while there are no rules for it... there are no rules against it either.. It all comes down to if the GM approves it. And he can decide if use use the Advance races or the beastiary advancement chart.. or decides to do something else.

Dark Archive

Yep, RAW you simply can't do it. So if you want to essentially it's a GM call and plays out however he or she feels works best (or not at all if they feel inclined). If they feel it's fine and allow it great, though they may well throw some down side on you to balance out the quite big advantage the size increase brings in most cases, perhaps by adding in some extra penalties or simply giving other characters a boost in stats to make them equivalent, etc.


That is correct.

There is no 'RAW' open option for a player to elect to do what you are asking, all there is is a set of different rules which may apply subject to GM discretion based upon their preferences and permission.

However as Suthainn points out, the GM will (regardless of option) need to do some serious balancing, and the stronger the choice applied (pretty much the order I listed them in) the heavier the balancing is going to be. Just being an Ogre is about 3 levels, so as an Ogre Tief you might be looking at a 4 level penalty.

Scarab Sages

Something to consider ... The stats of an Ogre is the same as a human advanced to large size using the size increase table in the bestiary.

The reason Enlarge Person doesn't grant these bonuses is because it is too powerful for a 1st level spell. In 3rd ed., a Wu Jen could cast Giant Size. This spell granted the bestiary size increase bonuses, but it was a 7th level spell and only affected the caster.

Another comparison - the spell Animal growth grants bestiary size increase bonuses to the animal it is cast on.


Although if you are just a tiefling that happens to be large, that might be only one level, since the large option in "Race Builder" lists being large as worth 7 points

We can do comparisons between races if we use the points. Tieflings are originally worth 13, dwarves are worth 11, humans are 9, the elemental native outsiders are 6; just a strait ogre is a 23.

Wait...23, but officially they have a cost of 3 levels. Oh dear. Well, I guess is bad new on this front then.

Edit to horselord's comment: looking at their racial modifiers, they are doing a lot more than simply being enlarged commoners. They have a +4 to strength and +2 to con and natural armor, and that appears to come in before the lowest modifiers for being a size larger according to that space and reach link I posted in the previous post (I can tell it isn't added since I didn't see the dex penalty associated with being large in their entry in the Race Builder). They also have both dark and low light vision.

And even if you ignored that, the simple fact is that they can get a 'decent' to 'great' strength score without spending any points. They can completely overturn a point buy. And that is before you factor in the effect of being constantly large would have at low levels.

Scarab Sages

If you are willing to eat 4 racial levels (ogre has 4HD), then use the bestiary size advancement rules for a tiefling and add 4 outsider HD (as tieflings are outsiders). Throw on low-light vision just because an ogre gets it.

This will mean you take your first class level at 5th character level. This method gives you everything that the character should have, but the cost is high. A generous DM may see this as too much and reduce the racial HD to 3, but lower than that and you will overpower the party for many levels.

A 3.5 rule allowed buying off level adjustments at certain level milestones. There may be food for thought in that at higher levels, such as permitting racial HD to be retrained as class levels, at roughly levels 7 and 13 (if starting with 4 racial HD),

if you are playing below level 4, you will have to collaborate with your GM on breaking up the racial benefits/penalties across the racial HD levels. I strongly recommend a -2 Dex at the level you grow large.


Using the Savage species guide an Ogre has Base stats +2str, -4Int, -4cha and +2NA. You get the stats by removing the Size modifier making him Medium.. so he looses +2NA and then looses +8str, the +4con and the -2dex... then you either use 10 or 11 for the base stats and subtract it to get the racial modifier. This puts Ogres at around 5points... (-2 for stats and then 2for NA and 2 more to increase NA then 2 for Darkvision and 1 for Low light) not sure how to add HD into it.. but without the HD for the feats and skill.. the race itself would be weaker then standard Human without its size.

Liberty's Edge

Tharg The Pirate King wrote:
So what I am hearing is that while there are no rules for it... there are no rules against it either.. It all comes down to if the GM approves it. And he can decide if use use the Advance races or the beastiary advancement chart.. or decides to do something else.

There is no rule against a 1st level human cleric casting spells as a 20th level sorcerer either, it just comes down to if the GM approves it.

Dark Archive

Hmm i believe there is a RAW for your non demonic race to be something other than human. Blood of fiends maybe goes into it.

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