Well , i dont think they get it, actually i would even bet they dont because this would be a VERY OP thing for a race to get for free , but why not have them say no and end this once and for all.
All 0 HD creatures determine proficiencies and skill points by class, not by type.
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Took me a bit to find This post pre-ARG to boot. I disagree with the reply to FAQing it though. Clearly a response is required.
Let's not turn this into an us-vs-them. We're all just trying to find out the answer :)
To expand a bit, the us-vs-them bit is what I generally find to cause all the caustic responses following the answer for a FAQ.
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Why do they need evidence outside of the ARG? What is wrong with what is written there? Why take the Bestiary at face value, and not the ARG?
Short answer? It's seen as a new rule in the ARG, as it wasn't spelled out in the Bestiary.
Long answer.
Humanoids are the only ones called out with
Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
• Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium,
or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class.
{Emphasis Mine}
All the other types including outsiders do not have that text in italics.Now James says that 0HD of any type have that rule ('or by character class') That's well, and good and correct. (and is printed in the ARG). The problem is, without that book, there's no indication (outside of the forums) that aasimar/tiefling/kayal/ifrit/etc. *don't* get the weapon proficiency.
If the argument is "Well they don't get the traits listed in their type" then they don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep either (since those are traits listed in their type). Common sense says that's as silly as 'the Dead condition doesn't say they don't get actions...' argument. But RAW can be read that they do eat and breathe and sleep... and are proficient in martial weapons.
(Note, I'm not arguing against James' ruling or the ARG, just explaining why it's a recurring issue)
Edit: Bestiary IV still only has the text in the humanoid description. And doesn't reprint the ARG rule.
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The 0 HD Humanoids is a 3.5 thing where it specified that only Humanoids lost everything in favor of class levels.
In PF, Bestiary 1, page 207 Step 2 (off top of my head as posting from phone), states that all HP, Skills, etc, but specifically all proficiencies are added in addition to those from class, not replaced.
The ARG is talking about designing new monsters, and only includes Native Outsiders, as if it where a type. Its also a genedalized way of how to make up unique "monsters", not really how to use existing ones, so is kind of irrelevant.
I know what JJ wrote, and I am fine with that being the Pathfinder design crew's intention. However, it clear to me that what he said is not a correct rules answer unless one of the following three things are made into an erratum:
a) Proficiencies are moved from traits to features
b) The language for 0 HD states proficiencies in addition to skills, hit points, and so forth
c) Outsider proficiencies are given the same language as humanoid proficiencies
Until one of those things happens, what Jacobs said is not a clarification, it's a suggestion, and by the RAW, technically incorrect. Furthermore, I don't see how a valid argument can be made this was an unforeseen consequence of the rules, since all the rules in question were directly inherited from 3.5. The situation is exactly as it was for Outsiders in 3.5.
Proficiencies from classes are featuers and hence based on class HD. My personal recommendation is that proficiencies be moved from the trait sections for the types and to Features in all cases.
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@RJ Grady,
I do agree it is a FAQ/Errata issue (apparently the design team doesn't). TO add to the confusion, in 3.5 the planetouched were proficient in all martial. While I play with the intended rule (non-proficient) it currently suffers 'Palladiumitus' where the additional rule has never been added to the 'core books' of the CRB or Bestiary I.
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That rule is in the advanced race guide. It is directly opposed to the rules in the bestiary so really it depends where you look as to what the aasimar pc gains.
Its not "opposed" it is a specific rule that trumps the general rule. This is a core concept of the system as a whole. Specific trumps general. It very much is a system of exceptions.
Its starting to feel like many of these FAQ "request" are people that know good and well what the RAW and RAI are and disagree with it. Then they try to mask that disagreement as manufactured "confusion" they pretend to see in the rules.
That rule is in the advanced race guide. It is directly opposed to the rules in the bestiary so really it depends where you look as to what the aasimar pc gains.Its not "opposed" it is a specific rule that trumps the general rule. This is a core concept of the system as a whole. Specific trumps general. It very much is a system of exceptions.
Its starting to feel like many of these FAQ "request" are people that know good and well what the RAW and RAI are and disagree with it. Then they try to mask that disagreement as manufactured "confusion" they pretend to see in the rules.
Actually, you're half right. I do know the RAW. I made this thread because this discussion was side tracking another thread and I wanted to try and get that thread back on track.
As to disagreeing with RAW / RAI, no, I really don't have a problem with it here. I do, however, have a problem with them issuing what amounts to a MASSIVE errata to player character races hidden in a paragraph in a book that most people would not consider core.
Funny thing to argue there. firstly the idea that "core" is some holy thing and "non-core" is somehow lesser rules is completely player fabricated. More so since Paizo allows there content to be shared and displayed on online databases (unlike WoTC with 3.5) the idea of not having a book and therefor never being able to see [blank] rule is well nonexistent.
What makes the argument even more flimsy is the fact that these races as PCs is "non-core" anyway. So pretty much it boils down to "I hate that these rules governing this no-core thing are non-core!"
Yeah just a bit silly.
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That rule is in the advanced race guide. It is directly opposed to the rules in the bestiary so really it depends where you look as to what the aasimar pc gains.Its not "opposed" it is a specific rule that trumps the general rule. This is a core concept of the system as a whole. Specific trumps general. It very much is a system of exceptions.
Its starting to feel like many of these FAQ "request" are people that know good and well what the RAW and RAI are and disagree with it. Then they try to mask that disagreement as manufactured "confusion" they pretend to see in the rules.
Look at it from an Organized play PoV.
I'm a new player to PFS. I've bought my CRB, and since I'm planning on playing a wizard, the Bestiary for summons. I see that aasimar are legal, decide it would be cool to play one. I make him hound heritage and give him the greatsword as his bonded item. I even buy Blood of Angels for coolness sake.*
So I've followed all the rules for PFS. I have the books I need, I've downloaded the GtOP. I even play in a local group and don't have an issue.
Then I go to a Con. Things go wrong, I'm out of useful spells and backed into a corner. Out comes the Greatsword. I'm told that my wizard can't use his ancestor's greatsword effectively when I've never seen a rule that says he couldn't. That I memorized shield mage armor and bull's strength for just such an emergency just meant that I could have had an expedious retreat and invisibility set up to get me out of there.
My character, who've I've played at least 6 times (since my hypothetical can cast bull's strength dies. All because of a rule I'd never heard of.
That's why it needs to be addressed elsewhere. Because not every player/GM has the ARG.
*
So, you want to play an Aasimar from the Bestiary.
You only have the CRB and the Bestiary.
Here's what's listed in the Bestiary for the Aasimar:
Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.
.
Interesting. I don't see anywhere in this list that Aasimars are automatically proficient with ANY weapon.
Remember, the Bestiary is primarily geared toward the GM, and is not a player resource without GM permission. The information is there for the GM to be able to effectively run the monsters therein.
Only the specific section of a monster entry that refers to playing them as a player character is relevant to using them as a PC.
Remember, the Bestiary is primarily geared toward the GM, and is not a player resource without GM permission.
As an aside, this isn't quite right. Very close, but not quite. There are some sections that are meant for players to have access too (the Monster Feats section, for example, has no text saying players can't use them if they meet the prerequisites), and there are some sections that while they seem to be player oriented, are actually there for GMs (such as the Drow Noble, or the Strix in B2 or B3).
In particular, the <X-race> Characters section is not specifically meant for PCs, although it's often used that way. It's meant to allow GMs to make characters like that, without reverse engineering the stats. It's basically saying "Yea, you are probably going to make classed versions of these guys, so here are the rules."
I'm not looking for powers or to prove the devs wrong or anything. I don't usually play aasimar or tieflings, and the last few Pathfinder campaigns have been ones in which planetouched are very rare. I just want the most popular dev answer and the rules to actually say the same thing. I am not invested in the answer being one way or the other. I just know that by the RAW, native outsiders are proficient with simple and martial weapons, and it is my opinion that anyone who says otherwise either has not read the rules carefully or is willfully ignoring them. If you're one of the Paizo development team, you have the prerogative to make the answer whatever you want it to be. If you're not, you should really be looking for an official erratum at this point.
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So, you want to play an Aasimar from the Bestiary.
You only have the CRB and the Bestiary.
Here's what's listed in the Bestiary for the Aasimar:
** spoiler omitted **
.
Interesting. I don't see anywhere in this list that Aasimars are automatically proficient with ANY weapon.
Remember, the Bestiary is primarily geared toward the GM, and is not a player resource without GM permission. The information is there for the GM to be able to effectively run the monsters therein.
Only the specific section of a monster entry that refers to playing them as a player character is relevant to using them as a PC.
Weren,
So does that mean that a PC aasimar doesn't need to eat, sleep or breathe? Those are listed in traits, not the section you quoted. That's the problem right now, as I see it. Because the "or by character class" is only listed in the humanoid type in the bestiary, a player or GM without the ARG has no reason to assume that the aasimar/tiefling/etc. ignore that one line of traits, but not all the others.
Again, I understand the RAI, but I feel the text should be clearer.
(Just a reminder, I'm not arguing the aasimar/tiefling should be proficient, it is clear that the intent is different than the intent in 3.X I'm saying the entry in the bestiary isn't clear.)
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Okay, so after much searching I cannot find any specific rule in the Bestiary referencing that creatures with 0 HD don't get armor or weapon proficiencies (or anything else listed under traits unless specifically called out in their monster entry).
Sorry. :(
<Properly chastised>
I'll go ahead and hit the FAQ button.
EDIT:
BTW - The aasimar and tiefling monster entries in the Bestiary only list weapons that their class would have access to.
Just saying. :P
Just out of curiosity can someone point me to the Beastiary rule that says that Native Outsiders are proficient with said items? I can't seem to find it. (No I am not being sarcastic, but I have seen the links and quotes to the ARG rule, but not the Beastiary rule.)
It's under Creature Types: Outsider.
The (native) part is just a subtype that modifies Outsider.
The general rule is that 0 HD races, no matter what their origin, get their proficiencies only from class and specific race. The planetouched races have no exemption from this rule. Only Outsiders with actual outsider hit dice get outsider proficiencies.
No, that is not the general rule. That is actually a specific rule found under the Humanoid type. Specifically,
Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
Find me a general rule that says 0 HD creatures lose the proficiencies trait. You say it exists, quote it. If you can do that, congratulations, you win the thread.
After doing some more research, I believe the oversight/error goes back to 3.5, and is due to the format of the Creature Type entries.
Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
If the bolded section was moved above the "Traits" entry to just below the "Skills" entry, it would have been much clearer, even without specific verbage.
Of course, a clarifying line in the opening section of "Creature Types" would have been helpful.
EDIT: I just used Outsider because it's specifically relevant to this thread. I think that all of the Creature Type entries should be reformatted.
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Vod, short answer is it's under their traits.
Longer answer: Here's the text from the Bestiary.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native
subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not prof icient with armor. Outsiders are
prof icient with shields if they are prof icient with any form of armor.
• Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Emphasis mine.
And there's the rub we are having. The bestiary and core rule book do not say to ignore the traits section. Indeed, the language in the humanoids section specifically is written to not override class proficiencies. The specific rule for the 0HD races is included in the ARG, but without that book, there's no reason to assume it.
And, as I mentioned elsewhere, in 3.x, the exact same rule wording did give outsiders the proficiency. Another 3.x example was that the Elans were called out as not having darkvision, an exception to the aberration rules.
Edit: Found the WotC ruling Sage advice, Dragon:352. Not putting it here to argue Sage rulings have any weight in Pathfinder, rather to point out the same text in the Bestiary/SRD is read different ways.
Edit II: Found this quote from JJ where he conceeds it's 'not as clear as it should be.' Hmm, if this pops up as a question evey few months, doesn't that mean it is a Frequently Asked Question?
Other Statistics for Monsters
Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment).This is from the D20SRD of which Pathfinder is based from. I haven't found a rule in Pathfinder that reverses it. Source text here. All bestiary entries for 0 hd races that have been published from Paizo continue to honor this rule.
Which is all well and good, but the problem is that it doesn't really address the issue in this thread.
By that I mean, it doesn't say that the 0HD creatures don't follow the rules for their type. Which is good, because if it did, native outsiders wouldn't eat sleep and breath. :)
RAI is clear, RAW is opposite.