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Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
Is a Bastard Sword also listed under Two Handed Weapons on the chart for Martial Weapons? Then I don't believe so as it is an Exotic Weapon base, and a Martial Weapon as a special weapon quality.
It seems to me that this could be covered by the Cleric Bastard Sword FAQ.
Cleric: Does a cleric, whose deity's favored weapon is the bastard sword, receive free martial or exotic weapon proficiency with the sword?
Since the bastard sword is listed as an exotic weapon, he receives the Exotic Weapon proficiency with the weapon, allowing him to use it one-handed.—Jason Bulmahn, 07/08/11
The logic would apply to Heirloom Weapon as well. The Bastard Sword is listed as an Exotic weapon.
- Gauss
I used to agree with you, but the new FAQ has stated that how you wield said sword is how you determine what "type" of weapon it is (either Exotic or Martial).
So, by new logic, wielding it two-handed makes it martial, which means it meets the Trait prereqs.
Neo2151, good point, I guess you could get the Martial Proficiency to wield it two-handed only. :)
- Gauss
LOL, so what if you only have Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Or would a wizard have to take both feats to use it both ways?
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I used to agree with you, but the new FAQ has stated that how you wield said sword is how you determine what "type" of weapon it is (either Exotic or Martial).
So, by new logic, wielding it two-handed makes it martial, which means it meets the Trait prereqs.
The FAQ does not say this at all.
Um, it kind of does.
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The FAQ doesn't say anything like that. Handedness is the only thing that changes.
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. You can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
You can use it like a martial weapon, but it's still exotic. Not eligible for heirloom weapon, no FAQ required.
Um, it kind of does.
It doesn't. Jiggy is right. It says that whether it is treated as one-handed or two-handed depends on how many hands you use to wield it.
This is a distinct question from whether it is a martial weapon or an exotic weapon.
A bastard sword is always an exotic weapon. It has a special exception that you can wield it without penalty in two-hands if you are proficient in all martial weapons.
Which gives credence to the thought that it counts as a martial weapon when being used with the martial weapon proficiency.
It may not be correct, but it just follows the logic of how you use it, defines how it works with other rules.
You may be correct that it can only count as an exotic weapon. But as shown recently, it is impossible to prove the right answer when given two legitimate arguments as the game often deviates from direct logic in favor of balance or design whim. Or, also equally valid, the logic from two different rules collides when combined and one just has to be chosen.
The weapon obviously is treated with two variables, not just one. The FAQ does a great job of addressing a lot of options, most of which are only based on the hands required for its interaction with other rules.
It even goes on to say that powerful build type abilities can use it in one hand without EWP, which would indicate that large characters would also be treated the same way.
So when used in two hands, for all prerequisites, it counts as a martial weapon.
And the latest, as I understand it, is that something like this is a corner case which will not be answered by the design team. It is unlikely that there is another situation where it matters if it is martial or exotic other than for the ability to wield it, which was covered.
So, given all of the above, it is my opinion that:
1) The OP question is a corner case.
2) The classification required to answer would appear to be solved by the FAQ for just about any other case.
3) The FAQ is silent on this exact application.
4) Omission of the clarification of handedness = weapon category does not = Exotic weapon at all times.
Therefore, you cannot prove your position or me, mine.
Of course all of this is just my opinion.
So when used in two hands, for all prerequisites, it counts as a martial weapon.
I can't really definitively prove using solely rules language that it maintains its status as an exotic weapon, regardless of manner of use. Nor am I particularly interested in doing so. But, this conclusion does not follow from the logical steps you made before it.
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The FAQ never states that the 'class' of weapon changes. The weapon's entry on the weapons tables in the book does not mystically shift when your character places a second hand on the grip of the weapon.
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The FAQ never states that the 'class' of weapon changes. The weapon's entry on the weapons tables in the book does not mystically shift when your character places a second hand on the grip of the weapon.
Indeed. The Bastard Sword is still an exotic weapon. It is only by it's weapon quality that allows you to use your martial proficiency with it.
The FAQ never states that the 'class' of weapon changes. The weapon's entry on the weapons tables in the book does not mystically shift when your character places a second hand on the grip of the weapon.
This is true. The FAQ never says the weapon "becomes" a two-handed weapon, and actually explicitly reaffirms that it's a one-handed weapon. It simply counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of two-handed weapon abilities, class features, etc., if you are wielding it in that way.
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
I have a question for you, Neo2151:
Why do you want to use this trait for the bastard sword?
Sorry - I realized that I never answered the original question:
Although the bastard sword can, under certain circumstances, be treated as martial weapon, it never actually is a martial weapon; it is always an exotic weapon. Thus, under RAW I don't believe Heirloom Weapon would work with it.
That said, I personally would probably allow it at my table (then again, I allowed a player to take Heirloom Weapon for an exotic because I thought they deserved it based on their character story).
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Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
No. It is always an exotic weapon. It can be used as a martial weapon two handed, but that does not make it a martial weapon. Like I can use pencils as chopsticks, but that does not make them chopsticks. It's physical properties are that of an exotic weapon, and the trait has restrictions based on the physical properties of the weapon. See the FAQ for the distinction between the physical properties and the rules for how your are using the weapons given their exception for two-handed use.
A bastard sword is a set of things. Things that talk to its construction and its physical properties are treated that way.
A bastard sword can be used a different way than other weapons of similar construction and physical properties. Things that talk to the exceptions of its use, are treated a different way. That does not change its construction.
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No. It is always an exotic weapon. It can be used as a martial weapon two handed, but that does not make it a martial weapon. Like I can use pencils as chopsticks, but that does not make them chopsticks. It's physical properties are that of an exotic weapon, and the trait has restrictions based on the physical properties of the weapon. See the FAQ for the distinction between the physical properties and the rules for how your are using the weapons given their exception for two-handed use.
A bastard sword is a set of things. Things that talk to its construction and its physical properties are treated that way.
A bastard sword can be used a different way than other weapons of similar construction and physical properties. Things that talk to the exceptions of its use, are treated a different way. That does not change its construction.
Best. Post. Ever.
Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
No. It is always an exotic weapon. It can be used as a martial weapon two handed, but that does not make it a martial weapon. Like I can use pencils as chopsticks, but that does not make them chopsticks. It's physical properties are that of an exotic weapon, and the trait has restrictions based on the physical properties of the weapon. See the FAQ for the distinction between the physical properties and the rules for how your are using the weapons given their exception for two-handed use.
A bastard sword is a set of things. Things that talk to its construction and its physical properties are treated that way.
A bastard sword can be used a different way than other weapons of similar construction and physical properties. Things that talk to the exceptions of its use, are treated a different way. That does not change its construction.
@Stephen, Thank you.
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Wait, so is the pencil always a simple one-handed implement, or does it become an exotic two-fingered utensil when used as chopsticks?
Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
It is listed on the equipment chart as an Exotic Weapon.
Therefore, it is an exotic weapon, and not valid for Heirloom Weapon.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Only one question per thread, so here we are (not my rule, just following the rules).
Can a Bastard Sword be chosen for the Heirloom Weapon trait, since it becomes a Martial weapon when used in two-hands?
No. It is always an exotic weapon. It can be used as a martial weapon two handed, but that does not make it a martial weapon. Like I can use pencils as chopsticks, but that does not make them chopsticks. It's physical properties are that of an exotic weapon, and the trait has restrictions based on the physical properties of the weapon. See the FAQ for the distinction between the physical properties and the rules for how your are using the weapons given their exception for two-handed use.
A bastard sword is a set of things. Things that talk to its construction and its physical properties are treated that way.
A bastard sword can be used a different way than other weapons of similar construction and physical properties. Things that talk to the exceptions of its use, are treated a different way. That does not change its construction.
The bastard sword is not a truck you can just dump things on! The bastard sword is a series of tubes!
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Methinks the Devs are getting pretty darn annoyed with the unending series of Bastard sword FAQ requests.
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Methinks the Devs are getting pretty darn annoyed with the unending series of Bastard sword FAQ requests.
Maybe a little. :)
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Can I put armor spikes on my bastard sword?
Shut up! ;)
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Can I wield four bastard swords if I have vestigial arms?
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If I make a charge while mounted on my bastard sword does the sword get the bonus for charging or do I?
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The mount, but only if he has armor spikes on his vestigial arms.
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Damn kids, get off my lawn. You and your armor spikes, vestigial arms, and bastard swords. In my day we had Thac0 and like it. ;)
THACO? If only we had THACO in the days of OD&D. You kids don't know good you have it (insert usual grognard stuff about uphill in the snow, etc etc)...
Damn kids, get off my lawn. You and your armor spikes, vestigial arms, and bastard swords. In my day we had Thac0 and like it. ;)
You tell 'em!
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There is no such feat as Martial Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).
One of the main reasons people are motivated to ask so many questions about this weapon (apart from the human urge to solve mysteries!) is that it seems such a rubbish weapon! Surely there must be some way to understand the fiendish cypher which is the bastard sword description that results in a worthwhile weapon?
Maybe this frustration is the real source of its name. : )
As a two-handed weapon, it's the worst one.
As a one-handed weapon, it cost a whole feat just for +1 average damage.
Even if it could be used one-handed without EWP, it would have an attack penalty of -4, and who would design their character around that!
This is why I like the new FAQ, even if it doesn't answer all the questions and even though it's more errata than FAQ. It gives this red-headed step-child of a weapon some much needed love, and a very cool ability.
So credit where it's due, PDT! Thank you.
A change/verification/clarification of any rule makes that rule and the rules surrounding them the focus of the day. It is the new thing to talk about. It is the new star of the show.
There are what, a few hundred, maybe a thousand people that check this board at least once a week? Those people want to talk about and discuss the focus of the day as well as the parts of the game that interest them.
For me, and a few others I suppose, it is a place to theorycraft and debate upon what is easily my most time consuming entertainment. This discussion is what entertains me between games. I liken it to sports fans that debate and banter with friends about their favorite teams.
Like some sports fans, some people here seem to go to far as well. And that part sucks, but it is just something that we will have to deal with as it comes. It shouldn't shut down most or all discussion about a part of the game for all the other fans.
It is a fact that the new FAQ answers a lot of questions about the Bastard Sword that have been asked for a long time. It is a fact that some people will love those answers as they proved what they knew was obvious was correct. It is a fact that some people will hate those answers as they proved what they knew was obvious was incorrect. Both sides will want to discuss it. New questions will be raised.
Others will just be inquisitive as to how it will work with other rules, just because that is how they are built. I know the very first automatic thing that I do, through no design of my own, is wonder how it will work with x or y rule. It is just what I do.
I would ask that the PDT and others that often peruse this site understand that is all that many people are doing, discussing the focus of the day. Giving their input. Taking other people's opinions.
Looking for entertainment (mental stimulus) before the next game.
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I don't believe a number of the posts from yesterday (many of which were locked\deleted) fell within the realm of "simply wanting to discuss".
A number of the ones that I viewed (and that were subsequently locked) had a flurry of FAQ requests in them by the same people each time, even though the answers to those questions were either explicitly stated or clearly implied, by the FAQ itself.
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So am I the only one who loves the bastard sword? My first D&D character ever had one. Bastard Swords are da bomb!
One of the standard races should get Sword training for the BS like dwarves get Dwarven axes, so that they'd see some use.
Like Tengu perhaps? Elves already get their one hand and two hand sword types (long sword, rapier, curved blade)
We could all just wield a longsword and be happy. It's only 1 point of average damage and functionally does everything a bastard sword does without any sort of confusion. I can't remember the last time I used a bastard sword. In pretty much all regards the Longsword is just outright better (and is basically synonymous with the bastard swords in reality).
:)
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Ashiel, a longsword does not functionally do everything a bastard sword does.
Due to the recent FAQ Bastard Swords now count as two-handed weapons for the purposes of feats and abilities which require two-handed weapons.
A one-handed weapon in two hands does not count for feats and abilities that require two-handed weapons. It only counts for feats and abilities that require a weapon being used in two hands.
(Note: I ignore this restriction in my own games and use common sense. If it is in two hands it counts for two handed weapon feats and abilities.)
- Gauss
ahahahah the early parts of this thread are a clear example of how far people are willing to go to try and exploit every advantage. It never ceases to amaze me how people turn into lawyers when disputing the wording of the rules. It's funny because I never encounter people like this in my gaming sessions, but it's always a discussion I see online.
I have two PC's in the Kingmaker campaign that I run weekly who use Bastard Swords. One is a Barbarian, the other is a Rogue/Cavalier. Both of the players enjoy their characters and their choice of weaponry.
Ashiel, a longsword does not functionally do everything a bastard sword does.
Due to the recent FAQ Bastard Swords now count as two-handed weapons for the purposes of feats and abilities which require two-handed weapons.
A one-handed weapon in two hands does not count for feats and abilities that require two-handed weapons. It only counts for feats and abilities that require a weapon being used in two hands.
(Note: I ignore this restriction in my own games and use common sense. If it is in two hands it counts for two handed weapon feats and abilities.)
- Gauss
I can't imagine a point where that would be useful. You are allowed to two-hand one-handed weapons (doing so nets you the same bonuses to damage as a two-handed weapon and the same benefits on power-attack). Meanwhile, the two-handed fighter archetype could be argued to only function with two-handed category weapon, at which case having a bastard sword isn't very useful since a greatsword is better (since wielding it in one-hand would cause you to lose the benefits). This is assuming that you enforce two-handed category weapons on such fighters rather than it being a weapon wielded in two hands (which would drastically diminish the value of the two-handed archetype).
'Cause I'm curious, can you give some more examples of something that must have a two-handed weapon to use that you can't use the longsword for that you would also want to have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)?
We could all just wield a longsword and be happy. It's only 1 point of average damage and functionally does everything a bastard sword does without any sort of confusion. I can't remember the last time I used a bastard sword. In pretty much all regards the Longsword is just outright better (and is basically synonymous with the bastard swords in reality).
:)
I was so surprised when I first learned that, but yes, a longsword and bastard sword are essentially the same thing. D&D/PRG longswords are closer to arming swords.
Arming swords were sometimes called short swords after longswords became popular, but only in comparison to longswords, and they were still different from the stabbing swords that the PRG short sword represents.
Indeed. It's a lot of fun. Also, here's a fun video. Longsword basic stuff.