Draining a Monk's Wisdom lowers his AC?


Rules Questions


I am running an Adventure Path and one of the encounters coming up involves a Soul Eater.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/soul-eater

Considering a Crane Style Monk is the main frontline combatant of the party, I wanted to know what happens to his AC when his wisdom is drained? Common sense dictates it goes down like dexterity being drained. This may be a silly question, but I just wanted to check. It seems weird that a monk's "beneficial" ability would end up screwing him over with a negative wisdom score. Is it optional to use one's "insight" to dodge attacks if it isn't helping?


Spastic Puma wrote:

I am running an Adventure Path and one of the encounters coming up involves a Soul Eater.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/soul-eater

Considering a Crane Style Monk is the main frontline combatant of the party, I wanted to know what happens to his AC when his wisdom is drained? Common sense dictates it goes down like dexterity being drained. This may be a silly question, but I just wanted to check. It seems weird that a monk's "beneficial" ability would end up screwing him over with a negative wisdom score. Is it optional to use one's "insight" to dodge attacks if it isn't helping?

PRD wrote:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

You only add it if it is a bonus. Otherwise it would have said modifier if it was bonus OR penalty, and would have said penalty if it was only penalties.

Hope this helps.


Monk WIS AC bonus:
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

first thought.:
Unlike the Paladin's ability where he adds his charisma(If positive) to his saving throws, a monk adds his wisdom to AC(if any). So yes, a negative wisdom score will lower not only a monk's AC, but any other rolls he makes with the wisdom modifier as usual.

Edit: Hmm, on second thought, after re-reading it again and again, I don't think he'll lose AC for having a negative wisdom score. However, he will not receive any bonuses to his AC or CMD, and any wisdom based roles are negatively affected as usual.
Edit2: Yes, the two following gents are correct.


Swifty, it says Wisdom BONUS (if any), not Wisdom MODIFIER (if any).

A negative Wis mod is not a bonus. He does not add it as a penalty to his AC.

Now his AC would get dropped down up until he hit 10 Wis, but not lower.

Liberty's Edge

SwiftyKun wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Unlike the Paladin's ability where he adds his charisma(If positive) to his saving throws, a monk adds his wisdom to AC(if any). So yes, a negative wisdom score will lower not only a monk's AC, but any other rolls he makes with the wisdom modifier as usual.

Actually, it says Wisdom BONUS, not modifier, so as written I would say a negative doesn't hurt the Monk.

Sczarni

If his Wisdom is drained, it would lower his Ability DCs(stunning fist for example), his CMD, and his AC all around. If he has the Guided property on his weapon(s), he would also lose attack/damage. Lowering his Wisdom would also lower his Wisdom based Skills, such as Sense Motive.

Edit: If we're talking about going under 10, the answer is No. It wouldn't detriment him any further than a base of 10. He would still have his Bonus AC/CMD from every 4th level regardless.


Going into this, one more side question came up. It says in the PFSRD that

"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
...
Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
..."

So, by the logic presented here, a modifier is EITHER a negative or positive modifier. Does a creature with a negative dexterity modifier actually GAIN AC during a surprise round?


Nope, you never gain from a negative, though i don't recall the exact ruling where. it's always at most at its maximum.

Liberty's Edge

Spastic Puma wrote:

Going into this, one more side question came up. It says in the PFSRD that

"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
...
Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
..."

So, by the logic presented here, a modifier is EITHER a negative or positive modifier. Does a creature with a negative dexterity modifier actually GAIN AC during a surprise round?

When you add a negative number to a positive number the positive number gets smaller.

Shadow Lodge

ShadowcatX wrote:
Spastic Puma wrote:

Going into this, one more side question came up. It says in the PFSRD that

"You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to:
...
Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
..."

So, by the logic presented here, a modifier is EITHER a negative or positive modifier. Does a creature with a negative dexterity modifier actually GAIN AC during a surprise round?

When you add a negative number to a positive number the positive number gets smaller.

Tom is kinda clunky, so he has an 8 Dex. With his buckler and leather, he has 12 AC, +2 armor, +1 shield, -1 Dex. In a surprise round, he loses his Dex modifier, which would be 13: 2 armor, 1 shield. That is the paradox. Unless a low Dex means you actually dodge into enemies.


"A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any)"


Spastic Puma wrote:
Does a creature with a negative dexterity modifier actually GAIN AC during a surprise round?

No, being flat-footed causes you to lose your dex bonus to AC, but a dex penalty is still applied. So, if you have 11 Dex or less and had no other source of AC, both your flat-footed AC will be the same as your normal AC (ie. 8 Dex gives you both FF and normal AC of 9).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:
Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.

A monk's AC is wholly unaffected by any ability damage applied to his Wisdom score, as Wisdom damage only effects Wisdom-based skill checks, Will saving throws, and spell DCs of Wisdom-based casters.


Ravingdork wrote:
Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:
Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
A monk's AC is wholly unaffected by any ability damage applied to his Wisdom score, as Wisdom damage only effects Wisdom-based skill checks, Will saving throws, and spell DCs of Wisdom-based casters.

Damage is different from Drain. Damage only affects the listed properties but Drain reduces the stat itself.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:
Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
A monk's AC is wholly unaffected by any ability damage applied to his Wisdom score, as Wisdom damage only effects Wisdom-based skill checks, Will saving throws, and spell DCs of Wisdom-based casters.

You would also prevent the Monk from benefiting from temporary bonuses to wisdom?

Or are you arguing that monks benefit from temporary wisdom bonuses but suffer no penalty from temporary wisdom damage?


Artanthos wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:
Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
A monk's AC is wholly unaffected by any ability damage applied to his Wisdom score, as Wisdom damage only effects Wisdom-based skill checks, Will saving throws, and spell DCs of Wisdom-based casters.

You would also prevent the Monk from benefiting from temporary bonuses to wisdom?

Or are you arguing that monks benefit from temporary wisdom bonuses but suffer no penalty from temporary wisdom damage?

Strictly speaking, a Monk doesn't benefit from temporary wisdom bonus nor does he suffer from wisdom damage, in regards to his Wis Bonus to AC. He needs a Permanent bonus to Wis to improve his AC (ie. a stat-boosting item worn for >24 hours) or Drain to reduce it (and then, only until it's drained down below 12 because a wis penalty doesn't reduce AC).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kazaan wrote:
Strictly speaking, a Monk doesn't benefit from temporary wisdom bonus

While Kazaan's interpretation is reasonable, there is another interpretation that suggest you would gain the benefit of temporary increases.

Liberty's Edge

Strictly speaking I believe Kazaan is correct by RAW. Not that I would ever play it that way, nor do I suspect the developers play it that way, but it is what it is.

Scarab Sages

ShadowcatX wrote:
Strictly speaking I believe Kazaan is correct by RAW. Not that I would ever play it that way, nor do I suspect the developers play it that way, but it is what it is.

Strictly speaking, by RAW, the Dead condition imposes no penalties.

Liberty's Edge

Artanthos wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Strictly speaking I believe Kazaan is correct by RAW. Not that I would ever play it that way, nor do I suspect the developers play it that way, but it is what it is.
Strictly speaking, by RAW, the Dead condition imposes no penalties.

DND is a game where you're meant to use your brain some.


Artanthos wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Strictly speaking I believe Kazaan is correct by RAW. Not that I would ever play it that way, nor do I suspect the developers play it that way, but it is what it is.
Strictly speaking, by RAW, the Dead condition imposes no penalties.

No, but Dying does, and it doesn't end once you are Dead.

On topic: does a monk count as a "spell caster" for the purpose of applying temporary wisdom modifiers to his abilities like Stunning Fist? I mean obviously not casting spells, but it's a stat-based offensive ability. A fighter would get temporary bonuses to Trip and weapon damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:
Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
A monk's AC is wholly unaffected by any ability damage applied to his Wisdom score, as Wisdom damage only effects Wisdom-based skill checks, Will saving throws, and spell DCs of Wisdom-based casters.
Damage is different from Drain. Damage only affects the listed properties but Drain reduces the stat itself.

The soul eater mentioned above does ability damage, not drain.

What are you getting at?


Ravingdork wrote:

The soul eater mentioned above does ability damage, not drain.

What are you getting at?

OP said it was Drain. If it's Damage, then yes, it won't lower the actual score. Though, even that is debatable now due to the FAQ essentially removing the distinction between Temporary and Permanent stat bonuses.

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

—Pathfinder Design Team, today

According to this, there's no difference between what temporary and permanent bonuses apply to; just that temporary bonuses represent "quick templates" so they may be inaccurate in some cases (such as only giving +1 damage for 2 points of Str whether it's a 2-h or not, whether it's an off-hand or not, etc. By extension, it stands to reason then that damage now also applies to "all things governed by the stat". In other words, the FAQ on temporary vs permanent bonuses implies that damage is also the same as drain, except that it takes 2 points of damage to yield 1 point of effect regardless of whether the stat was even or odd to start while a single point of drain won't have an effect if the stat was odd but will if it was even.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kazaan wrote:
FAQ essentially removing the distinction between Temporary and Permanent stat bonuses.

It is sometimes amazing how we all interpret words, as I only see the FAQ as fixing the overly narrow way some people were interpreting the rules. Everything is still just as it was after the FAQ.

You still get the stuff you should (carry capacity) and you still do not get the things you shouldn't (more spells per day or rounds of rage)


James Risner wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
FAQ essentially removing the distinction between Temporary and Permanent stat bonuses.
It is sometimes amazing how we all interpret words, as I only see the FAQ as fixing the overly narrow way some people were interpreting the rules.

That comes from an inability to comprehend the syllogism. If A implies B, and B implies C, then A implies C. For example, A) It's raining, B) I won't go outside, C) I won't go shopping. If it's raining, I wont' go outside. If I don't go outside, I won't go shopping. With these premises, it's impossible to logically arrive at a conclusion where it's raining, but I go to the store. Likewise, according to the FAQ, a temporary bonus to a stat increases the value of your modifier for all purposes the stat is used for, not just the specific purposes listed. Spells and certain other abilities use a particular stat to govern how many uses you get per day. A) A temporary stat bonus applies to all derivative purposes of that stat just as a permanent bonus would (From the FAQ), B) Ability use per day derived from a stat modifier is affected by permanent stat bonuses. C) A temporary stat bonus applies to use per day derived from a stat modifier. If a temporary stat bonus applies to the same things as a permanent bonus, and ability use per day is increased by a permanent bonus, then a temporary stat bonus applies to ability use per day derived from that stat. Simple syllogism, simple logical derivation. This is nothing amazing, it ought to be mundane and commonplace. What's amazing is that people can see a FAQ that says a temporary bonus increases all the same things that a permanent bonus increases, with no associated exclusionary qualifier, and come to the conclusion that there are inherent and broad categories of exceptions.

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