How Many People Are Legitimately Running These "Social Incompetent" Builds Real World?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Well, after spending some time here after a long absence, I've been noticing people posting characters and the like and Intelligence and Charisma are in short supply, buddy!

7 or lower Intelligence, Charisma or Wisdom, or even 2 of the 3, doesn't just seem not as uncommon as I thought but rather de rigeur.

I can understand one shotting this to do something Iconic and silly and fun like Big Dumb Fighter, Grumpy Dwarf Combatant ("Oh, you want something that doesn't directly effect combat prowess? NO!") Kruggor The Social Psychopath Barbarian but really, those have to be pretty uncommon, right?

Statistically shouldn't 2 6s or 7s be about just as rare as an 18 or 2 getting rolled naturally before racial hits?

Also, how is that fun to roleplay consistently? 6 or 7 Intelligence and a Charisma score in the 6s and 7s to boot means what? 2 or 3 standard deviations off of the baseline average intelligence and charisma of a human being? Does that mean profound mental handicaps and developmental hinderances? How can that be fun on a long term basis? How does that even mechanically play out and socially play out in the real world with other characters?

Is this just to squeeze the last +2 out to buff a guy in combat or is this legit? Do people sincerely play these Unlucky Number 7s and 6s a lot?


I dont think so, unless the intent is more to play the "game" rather than to roleplay. It's a mechanical choice (that most guides encourage) but it's of limited value in my opinion. An I've yet to see somebody play in such a fashion.


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Wait.. What was the question again?

Grand Lodge

see i don't agree i often dump Wisdom.

your argument here is not about stat dumping but Optimal character build versus Flavorful character build.

the true answer here is each and every person is different and has different play styles the best type of role-player accepts others differences and enjoys working with them.


As a GM, I found the builds players were presenting me with aesthetically unsatisfying when I used point buy.

For instance, if you are using the 2 stat points = 1 standard deviation approximation that I use...

I know people in the real world with 18 Strength, and considerably more in the 14-16 range. How many of them have 7 or 8 intelligence (common dumpstat)?
Not a damned one. I also know people with similar levels of intelligence. How many of THEM have 7 or 8 strength? Not a damned one either. The real world actually doesn't produce a ton of dumpstat wonders with 18s and 7s. What it actually does is produce people with one or two exceptional abilities and the rest somewhat above average. NFL players, for instance, are smarter on average, even with the concussions, than the groups they are drawn from. So are college cheerleaders. We make movies about 'Rain Men' because they are so rare.

So my solution was to offer my players several templates to choose from. They're all decidedly lacking in 7s, 17s, and 18s, although they 'cost out' to fairly high point buys. My intensely competitive (among themselves, they've learned not to try to compete directly with their gm) players are a lot happier with that solution.


^_^ I really don't like seeing a stat below 10...

That being said, my most recent character does have a wis of 7, and a really good reason why!


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SPCDRI wrote:

Well, after spending some time here after a long absence, I've been noticing people posting characters and the like and Intelligence and Charisma are in short supply, buddy!

7 or lower Intelligence, Charisma or Wisdom, or even 2 of the 3, doesn't just seem not as uncommon as I thought but rather de rigeur.

I can understand one shotting this to do something Iconic and silly and fun like Big Dumb Fighter, Grumpy Dwarf Combatant ("Oh, you want something that doesn't directly effect combat prowess? NO!") Kruggor The Social Psychopath Barbarian but really, those have to be pretty uncommon, right?

Statistically shouldn't 2 6s or 7s be about just as rare as an 18 or 2 getting rolled naturally before racial hits?

Also, how is that fun to roleplay consistently? 6 or 7 Intelligence and a Charisma score in the 6s and 7s to boot means what? 2 or 3 standard deviations off of the baseline average intelligence and charisma of a human being? Does that mean profound mental handicaps and developmental hinderances? How can that be fun on a long term basis? How does that even mechanically play out and socially play out in the real world with other characters?

Is this just to squeeze the last +2 out to buff a guy in combat or is this legit? Do people sincerely play these Unlucky Number 7s and 6s a lot?

The none-handicapped human norm ranges between 3-18. D&D does not do mental retardation very well. Never has. Never will. A character with a 3 Int can function perfectly well in society. A character with a 3 Wisdom can too. A character with a 3 Charisma? I know a few people like this, and I'd peg my own Charisma no higher than 7 IRL.

The problem is with your perceptions. You look at a 7 and you think that it means you're somehow drooling all over yourself. Others of us see that a 6-7 is a -10% to success chances compared to 10-11. You are just a little worse than average. To many of us this is important to our concepts as well. I'm currently playing a character (a psion themed as a Witch) in a game on Fridays. She is one of the more beloved members of the party (a trait I attribute entirely to roleplaying reasons). She has a 7 Charisma, specifically to represent that she is not particularly good with people. She's cunning and fairly athletic, and since the game has been progressing she has been getting more used to dealing with people and as a result she has been getting better at interacting with them.

You're attributing much, much stronger definitions to the stats than anything in the game (including the math) would suggest and calling them unplayable. You say a 7 seems to suggest profound mental handicaps, I say it makes for more realistic people.


Agree with Ashiel. Having said that, I often happily overplay my own dump stats a bit, as I've usually chosen to lower them for a character concept rather than squeeze out that extra +1 - although I occasionally do that too.

Had to use an unusual array once that included a 5. Generally, I'm a player that hates dumping Cha, as I like my PCs to be at least average at social "conflict" - in other words, I hate making a great persuasive argument to an NPC, then having it be disregarded because of that 10% handicap.

Anyhow, I chose to place that 5 in Cha, as I had the idea of an inquisitor that had been ravaged by fire as a youth, who covered their scarred and hairless body from head to toe and couldn't speak beyond a harsh whisper.

To answer the OP, no, I don't think stat dumping happens as much as it would appear. I read the guides, but I never use them whole cloth, nor are you meant to. The guides/builds that people create are meant to to be as optimal as possible. Most people take the general ideas of those builds and incorporate them into their concept, rather than just flat out copy them.

Also, bear in mind that while a well-rounded campaign will give a chance for every character to shine, it should also expose the weaknesses of all the characters. I'm certainly not saying a GM should target a dump-statted PC, but if the Cha 5 socialtard never has to make a single Cha check or skill roll, something's awry.

Plus, it's fun to roleplay deficiencies sometimes :)

Grand Lodge

perfect point Ashiel.

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