First Worlder and Starlight Summons

[neferphras]

Here is an interesting question

First Worlder (summoner) does its Eidolon get the benefit of feats like starlight summons. Here is why i ask

Augmented Summoning states
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

so clearly an Eidolon does not get that (and thank god for that). It applies to only summons spells like summon monster and summon natures ally

But Starlight Summons says
Benefit: Creatures you summon gain the Blind-Fight feat, a +5 bonus to Perception and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness, and their natural weapons are treated as cold iron for overcoming damage reduction.

an Eidolon is , without question, a creature you summon. Says nothing about spells in that one.

So i think per RAW the answer is yes, it would work. But thats a kinda scare thought so i decided to put it out there.

[LazarX]

The Eidolon is not called by the Summon Monster nor Summon Nature's Ally spells, so no.

[Samasboy1]

I don't think I agree with LazarX. Lets compare some different feats' wording.

Augment Summoning wrote:

Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

Nimble Natural Summons wrote:

Creatures you summon with summon nature’s ally can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, and similar terrain) at their normal speeds without taking damage or suffering other impairment. Thorns, briars, and undergrowth areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect the summoned creatures.

Sacred Summons wrote:

When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.

Superior Summoning wrote:

Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.

The following feats are different in that they don't mention spells. Just that the affected creatures must be summoned.

Moonlight Summons wrote:

Creatures you summon shed light as a light spell. They are immune to confusion and sleep effects, and their natural weapons are treated as silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Starlight Summons wrote:

Creatures you summon gain the Blind-Fight feat, a +5 bonus to Perception and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness, and their natural weapons are treated as cold iron for overcoming damage reduction.

Sunlight Summons wrote:

Creatures that you summon shed light as a light spell. They are immune to blinding or dazzling effects, and their natural weapons are treated as magical for overcoming damage reduction.

Ferocious Summons wrote:

Creatures you summon gain the ferocity universal monster ability.

And the Eidolon is definitely a summoned creature.

Eidolon wrote:

A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

So I think you could definitely argue that RAW Sunlight/Moonlight/Starlight/Ferocious Summons feats affect the Eidolon class feature.

This would work for the Wild Caller too.

[neferphras]

Larazx, there is nothing in the set of feats for nature that states 'summon spell' its intentionally left out. So a better argument than that is needed to say no.

[neferphras]

also remember the first worlder eidolon is intentionally weaker than the typical Eidolon, so... this may have been intentional...all be it a bit scary. I was looking for an official ruling because i have a character in a campaign wanting to go this road.

[neferphras]

Can the Wild caller summon while his Eidolon is out like a first worlder

[Samasboy1]

No. But their Eidolon is not weakened like the First Worlder's is. In fact, you get bonus evolution points, but you are forbidden from certain evolutions.

However, it replaces the Summon Monster SLA's with Summon Nature, to meet the feat requirements.

[Nox Aeterna]

That is one interesting combo.

Never thought of also considering the eidolon for this before ...

[LazarX]

neferphras wrote:

Can the Wild caller summon while his Eidolon is out like a first worlder

The First Worlder can't do it either. The only one who can is the Master Summoner.

[blahpers]

Any of them that don't mention "spell" should work with your eidolon. Even the spell abilities work if you cast summon eidolon, but the duration is limited.

[Samasboy1]

LazarX wrote:

neferphras wrote:

Can the Wild caller summon while his Eidolon is out like a first worlder

The First Worlder can't do it either. The only one who can is the Master Summoner.

Not according to this post by James.

Per that thread, the difference in wording is intentional to allow the First Worlder to summon while their Eidolon is active.

The Wild Caller states it "otherwise functions like the summoner's summon monster ability and replaces it." The First Worlder only says it "replaces" it, thus removing the limitation in the original summon monster ability that it cannot be used while the Eidolon is present.

[neferphras]

LazarX, James settled that one, First Wolders definitely CAN have their Eidolon out AND user their Cha Based summon ability at the same time.

[James Jacobs]

neferphras wrote:

Here is an interesting question

First Worlder (summoner) does its Eidolon get the benefit of feats like starlight summons. Here is why i ask

Augmented Summoning states
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

so clearly an Eidolon does not get that (and thank god for that). It applies to only summons spells like summon monster and summon natures ally

But Starlight Summons says
Benefit: Creatures you summon gain the Blind-Fight feat, a +5 bonus to Perception and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness, and their natural weapons are treated as cold iron for overcoming damage reduction.

an Eidolon is , without question, a creature you summon. Says nothing about spells in that one.

So i think per RAW the answer is yes, it would work. But thats a kinda scare thought so i decided to put it out there.

No, it wouldn't work. Augmented Summoning and Starlight Summons work for summon monster spells, not for eidolons.

Your GM can, of course, rule otherwise if he/she wishes.

[blahpers]

The spell summon eidolon is a conjuration (summoning) spell. It should work in that instance, though you could interpret the clause on treating the effect as though the summoner had summoned the eidolon normally as overriding this. It's hardly cut and dry, but that's what GMs are for.

Well, that and riveting stories, deadly dungeons, and an excuse to get together with your buddies and eat brownies while talking in funny voices.

[Toad. First Worlder summoner.]

Interest!!! Me can summon and have friend Toad out at same time!! Oh happy day!!

[Samasboy1]

James Jacobs wrote:

No, it wouldn't work. Augmented Summoning and Starlight Summons work for summon monster spells, not for eidolons.

Your GM can, of course, rule otherwise if he/she wishes.

Hate to argue, but there is a distinct difference in the wording of those feats. One specifies a spell, the other doesn't.

If Starlight Summons works on "Creatures you summon" without any reference to a spell, and an Eidolon is a summoned creature (with or without a spell), what is the rationale behind saying it doesn't work?

[neferphras]

Guys, i asked James to comment because he is the creative director
so what he says pretty much goes.

I would suggest a clarification be put out on additional resources or FAQ because with how the feats are currently worded i can easily see this being debated at a table.

[LazarX]

neferphras wrote:

LazarX, James settled that one, First Wolders definitely CAN have their Eidolon out AND user their Cha Based summon ability at the same time.

I wouldn't contest that... there's just no hint of that possibility in the wording of the ability as I've read it.

The description only mentions the changes to the eidolon itself and ends with this line.

"...This otherwise works like and replaces the eidolon ability of a normal summoner."

[LazarX]

Samasboy1 wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

No, it wouldn't work. Augmented Summoning and Starlight Summons work for summon monster spells, not for eidolons.

Your GM can, of course, rule otherwise if he/she wishes.

Hate to argue, but there is a distinct difference in the wording of those feats. One specifies a spell, the other doesn't.

If Starlight Summons works on "Creatures you summon" without any reference to a spell, and an Eidolon is a summoned creature (with or without a spell), what is the rationale behind saying it doesn't work?

You don't normally summon your eidolon with a spell, but through a ritual. A GM might allow the feat if the Summon Eidolon spell is used on the same basis that one might allow Augment Summons to work, but note that the spell does have a short duration.

[Samasboy1]

It shouldn't matter if you summoned the creature with a spell, spell like ability, or ritual. The creature is still a summoned creature.

The feat Starlight Summons doesn't restrict how it was summoned, only that it affects summoned creatures.

And with great and genuine respect to James' response, I repeatedly see posts that while he is the Creative Director he isn't part of the rules development team and his responses are how he would rule it rather than an official stance.

I can't say I actually know much about that myself, but regardless of if it is true or not, his response doesn't simply end all conversation.

There's no reason given the wording of the feat to say it doesn't affect an Eidolon. It affects "Creatures you summon" and Eidolon is a summoned creature.

[neferphras]

ugh.... that means augment summoning would work when you summon the Eidolon via the spell as well.., something to keep in mind for the big bad at the end of the module.

[neferphras]

Samasboy1 wrote:

It shouldn't matter if you summoned the creature with a spell, spell like ability, or ritual. The creature is still a summoned creature.

The feat Starlight Summons doesn't restrict how it was summoned, only that it affects summoned creatures.

And with great and genuine respect to James' response, I repeatedly see posts that while he is the Creative Director he isn't part of the rules development team and his responses are how he would rule it rather than an official stance.

I can't say I actually know much about that myself, but regardless of if it is true or not, his response doesn't simply end all conversation.

There's no reason given the wording of the feat to say it doesn't affect an Eidolon. It affects "Creatures you summon" and Eidolon is a summoned creature.

err ok my bad perhaps the I directly emailed james to try to come to some conclusion on this. Who should i have engaged?????

[LazarX]

Samasboy1 wrote:

If Starlight Summons works on "Creatures you summon" without any reference to a spell, and an Eidolon is a summoned creature (with or without a spell), what is the rationale behind saying it doesn't work?

Your problem is the faulty premise. The spell only works for creatures summoned with a Summon Nature's Ally spell, as that is the prerequisite for obtaining that feat. The eidolon is not brought in that way, so no it does not get it.

[neferphras]

just because a feat has a pre req, does not mean that you can only apply the feat to the preq, their are scads of counter examples to that. so thats false reasoning.

That being said i dont per say disagree with James i just want it to be an actual ruling and if he is not the guy for that, I would like to get it to the right person.

One more layer to that is this.

So you Eidolon is a Fey
you can summon Fey (summon natures ally)
you can take a feat to let your summoned creature over come cold Iron DR
but there is zero available evolution to allow your fey Eidolon to do the same??? how does that make sense...at all... Answer is it Doesn't.

so anyway. I guess we need someone on the rules staff to look at this because the feat wording leans towards it applying to Eidolons.

[Korthis]

LazarX wrote:

Your problem is the faulty premise. The spell only works for creatures summoned with a Summon Nature's Ally spell, as that is the prerequisite for obtaining that feat. The eidolon is not brought in that way, so no it does not get it.

Hate to disagree but I don't think that this is true. Sure you need SNA to get the feat, but that doesn't mean it only works with those spells.

for instance, combat expertise lets you lower your attack to raise your AC and is the requirement for alot of the "improved" combat maneuver feats but you don't have to have combat expertise active in order to use improved disarm.
ninj'd

[neferphras]

Since i am told the rules folks sometimes do actually look at these boards adding this question to the thread

James Jacobs wrote:
Anonymous Visitor 550 wrote:
Does the First-World Summoner's Summon Nature Ally work like Summoner's Summon Monster (reduced casting time, increased duration, no eidolon) or is the RaW implication (standard casting time/duration, but can cast with eidolon out) intentional?
Intentional.

Since i had a GM asked me to clarify this last Sunday in a pfs game, the wording of the first worlder summoner does not include the sentence.

'He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level)'

Is that implied or was that left out intentionally? In other words is the summon natures ally still a standard action and 1 min / level duration for a first worlder?

[neferphras]

neferphras wrote:

Since i am told the rules folks sometimes do actually look at these boards adding this question to the thread

James Jacobs wrote:
Anonymous Visitor 550 wrote:
Does the First-World Summoner's Summon Nature Ally work like Summoner's Summon Monster (reduced casting time, increased duration, no eidolon) or is the RaW implication (standard casting time/duration, but can cast with eidolon out) intentional?
Intentional.

Since i had a GM asked me to clarify this last Sunday in a pfs game, the wording of the first worlder summoner does not include the sentence.

'He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level)'

Is that implied or was that left out intentionally? In other words is the summon natures ally still a standard action and 1 min / level duration for a first worlder?

I received my answer on this part, its still a min per level and standard action. Greater question on the feats is pending i guess

[ShadowcatX]

LazarX wrote:

Your problem is the faulty premise. The spell only works for creatures summoned with a Summon Nature's Ally spell, as that is the prerequisite for obtaining that feat.

This is grossly incorrect. Feats and abilities work as they say they do, and no part of the feat states that it only works with its prerequesite summon spells, nor do the core rules state that feats only work with their prerequesites. (Would you say that someone wasn't allowed to use improved trip unless they were using combat expertise?)

As to the first worlder, I see nothing that would prevent using summon nature's ally while the eidolon is out, nor do I see anything that would indicate that the summons stick around for 1 min / level.

As to rather or not it would apply to the eidolon, I think the answer is likely going to be no, but I'm on rocky enough ground the answer could be yes. I do think a strict reading of RAW would lean towards yes though.

And I do believe that all the feats would apply when casting summon eidolon out of a spell slot.

[neferphras]

i actually asked james directly on the duration question and the answer was 1 min / level. So that one is for the most part closed, unless someone with more authority than him speaks up.

i just wish they would update the wording on the feats. Per raw the answer is yes, without question, but i dont feel that was the intention, and james agreed above. Going by what james has ruled until i hear otherwise.