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Hi all! I just wanted to say first up that this entire community rocks, and I have read a lot of these threads to clarify certain points during this AP, and for general tips. So thanks!
Now, I'm a fairly novice GM and I've been running this AP since June for a four person party. I gave them all a 20 point buy for a little extra-survivability, but I still want them to feel challenged. I also gave them three traits, one of which had to be a campaign trait in the Player's Guide to the AP.
We're approaching the end of Chapter 1 and the team has just defeated Nualia and it was almost a TPK! I had her, Tsuto, and two Yeth Hounds (the one Yeth Hound from the chapel above was frightened out of the arena and flew out the Tentamort's lair - I had it come back downstairs and joined its master for the battle).
Now, I LOVE that it was almost a TPK, but they managed to scrape through. I faked HP left on Nualia and Tsuto and I also "forgot" about the Yeth Hound's damage reduction, and I have been adding as a rule, for most bosses up until this point max-HP.
My question is, does that sound about right to you? Or should I be giving max-HP to every baddie they face?
My party consists of:
Elven Ranger played by an inexperienced player. Likes to stay in the back and ping arrows and is scared of being hit.
Dwarven Cleric and tank of the party. Also played by a fairly inexperienced player.
A Strix Scorpion-whip shocking grasp alpha strike Magus who has already planned his character to 15th level. This one is my biggest problem with challenge because he can absolutely rinse bosses with True Strike/Spell Strike etc. Very experienced player.
Kitsune Bard with some good utility/dancing options, can't fight well though. Also pretty experienced, but I like that he is always trying to cast Charm Person on everyone.
In hindsight, I probably should have limited character options to CRB, APG, or at the very least get rid of any Uncommon Races.
So what do you reckon? As a GM, am I on the right track with changing the encounters? I use Hero Lab for the combats, and I think adding Advanced to the creatures is overkill. Is Max-HP enough?
Any assistance will be appreciated, and thanks in advance!

RuyanVe |

Sounds good so far.
As Patrick has posted already, it's about having fun--for both sides of the table!
My group has rolled for stats and was very lucky with the rolls--nobody under 35 point-buy equivalent; add experienced players and off you go...
Thus, max hp is a must, as are more minions! If an encounter calls for 4 goblins, I usually had 6 running around.
Especially adding dedicated ranged attackers to the monster makes a big difference!
Never use singular villains. Never. Action economy will have them diminished to 1-round wonders--where most of the times they will not act once...
Especially the bigger bad guys are never without mooks/cannon fodder to occupy everybody in the group and drain them of some of their resources.
Adding another class level or two to the villains is also common in my games.
Later on (lvls > 6) the Advanced Simple Template is a given, too. For lower levels I'd not advise to use it since +2 attack, damage, saves etc is huge.
Use terrain and weather to your advantage! Line of sight, visibility and such can tip the balance of a lot of battles.
Another thing I have learned to really appreciate is doing away with XP--I level them up at/before predetermined events. Thus, the additions of monsters and HD/class levels are no problem for my game.
I'd also advice you to change tactics now and then.
To me the term tank is somewhat misleading. There are no aggro mechanics in the game other than you! Why should every single monster go for the dwarf? Is the tall human with the nasty looking whip not posing a much bigger threat--swarm him!? What about the elf in the back pelting everyone with arrows--go for him! Not every encounter has to be one where you've to fight!
Ruyan.

Patrick Harris @ MU |

Later on (lvls > 6) the Advanced Simple Template is a given, too. For lower levels I'd not advise to use it since +2 attack, damage, saves etc is huge.
I tried using that at lower levels and the only real problem was the AC. People at my table invariably acquire my luck with dice--which is to say, they consistently roll diddly squat.

Dan E |

APs are designed around 4 player, 15 point builds that aren't particularly optomised.
15 vs 20 points builds and the half feat is going to make much less of a difference than an extra player for example. Where that extra 5 points goes for each character is rather important. If its say shoring up an otherwise dump stat its actual effect on combat might be zero.
I'd say your issue is going to be much more balancing the hyper optomiser against the rest of the group to be honest.
Personally I would keep playing close to as written and see how you go. Maybe add a hp or two per HD of at least major monsters to balance the extra points. If fights are getting too easy I'd start by adding more mooks before applying templates, advanced simple is +4 AC which can shake things up a lot.
Tactically, if the magus is killing everything in sight have intelligent opponents start to target him more (as intelligent opponents should) and try and stretch the encounter day to make him husband his resources. "Kill the magus first, just like we planned!" can massage his ego rather than the DM being out to get him and give other players a chance to shine.

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Thanks for your suggestions, guys!
Firstly the term "tank" was really just more relevant when they were fighting goblins. They're pretty stupid and usually run at the first enemy that they see, and that's the dwarf. Later on, I know that he probably won't be prioritised, so I'm all good there.
You guys were right about the ultra-optimiser. What I'm trying to accomplish is that in fights everyone feels as if they contributed and do well, not just let the Magus in with the whip, smash the boss and then run away. Strix's can also fly, and with a whip at range makes melee have a bit of a tough time. I'll make sure that spells and ranged attacks even the playing field. It also helps that a lot of the areas have quite low ceilings so he has to walk anyway. Strix's wings are massive, so they need at least five more feet in my game to give them enough room.
As for the ranger, she likes to stand out of the room or just in and ping arrows, so I might just have some sneaky (surprise!) mooks come up behind to get her closer to the action. :)
I'll keep adding HP to the bigger encounters, and then after Level 6 might look at starting to add Advanced Templates. I have no problem with the Strix doing massive damage, as long as the bad guy has enough hit points for everyone else to have a crack too!

Ian Bell |

My group is the equivalent of 25ish point buy and they still run into plenty of issues - while I haven't killed anyone yet they've had lots of close calls. I don't think you will need to make any adjustments in particular unless they get ahead of the level curve, you're extraordinarily generous with treasure and the level of gear customization they can do, or they're hyper-optimized.

Tangent101 |

Here's the thing to remember with the Magus. He has to roll a Concentration Check when casting spells in combat. Never forget that. Those concentration checks will inevitably result in failures. And you can also modify foes - someone with the Disruption Feat will make the Magus sweat bullets and ruin his effectiveness.
Also, enemies can hold their action and then disrupt the Magus with ranged attacks (or melee) when he starts casting.
There are plenty of ways to shut down the Magus without overpowering things.

Kayland |

I can see where the Magus would be a problem. However, I've never really understood needing to boost encounters because of a point buy system. The difference between a 15 and 20 point buy or a 20 and 25 point buy is so miniscule at mid levels + that it's no longer an issue. Party tactics and knowledge will forever be a more pressing concern.
That one additional point of damage in strength or con isn't going to matter when that Ogre hook crits for 100 points of damage. Since most of your players, or at least half, are inexperienced, they're going to need that tiny little boost just to survive because they're not going to know the tactics and possibilities to survive in certain situations.
One thing to remember...Burnt Offerings was specifically designed to be light on the danger (Elyrium excepted). So if you boost you might find that they go from feeling slightly challenged...to wiping when you get to later chapters.

Grimmy |

At first I was going to say if you gave them higher point buy for added survivability why compensate for it now? You would be going in circles. But then I read about the magus and I can see where that could be a problem. SO, it sounds like you are on the right track. Max hp and/or more minions should do the trick. And let those minions be minions for real, as in even the archer can one-shot them.
Also, people will tell you there is no tanking in pathfinder because there's no aggro mechanic, but that is up to you, you're the GM. If the new guy built a dwarf to tank with, let him soak some hits. You control the bad-guy tactics so let them waste some attacks bouncing off his AC so he feels like he's contributing in the way he built for.
Someone else will inevitably come along and say don't coddle him, but I think GM's can get a little bit meta about not attacking the guys with AC. Tanking is a fun part of games, I don't see why we have to write it out of history just to be elite gamers. But take with salt, YMMV, etc. This is coming from a guy who still likes healing in combat, blaster wizards, and niche-protection for rogues. In other words I'm a red-headed step-child.

Ian Bell |

There are plenty of monsters with spell resistance in the later parts of the adventure - and remember that spellcasters are absolutely hosed by being grappled in Pathfinder, and there are lots of big strong high CMB monsters that can grapple that magus in the AP as well. Don't overuse the tactic, but grappling him once in a while will take the edge off all that alpha strike nonsense.

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Thanks again for all your great suggestions, but now I have to think about an additional player! I've got another friend who wants to join in. He's pretty unexperienced, too, but I will have to add 25% more monsters now, I reckon.
I'm going to totally throw out XP and have them level up at the pre-determined points as suggested in the AP, and I've come up with a quick and dirty way of beefing up the challenge.
If I can add 25% more monsters, great, I will also give full HP to them.
If it's easier to add 50% more monsters due to the math, great, I will keep HP at an average.
I'll also be using more cunning tactics to make the players feel *threatened*. That's really my goal, I don't want them to cake-walk, but ultimately I want them to succeed. I don't want their characters to die unless they make stupid decisions.
I will also be making full-use out of Tangent's favourite tool: The Fudge. But I'm pretty sneaky with it. :)

Are |

Hmm. I'll just quickly point out that if you beef up the encounters to challenge the experienced player with the powerful character, then the inexperienced players with less powerful characters may start to feel like they never get to contribute, and/or the encounters may become too deadly for their characters.
The balance between these two aspects could be difficult to accomplish, but it's something to consider, at least.

Tangent101 |

The solution to that are attackers designed to cause a Magus a lot of grief. For that matter, spells like Silence 15' Radius can likewise cause a Magus a bit of trouble for a while. Ultimately, a Magus is a poor man's warrior and wizard - not as good at either as a fighter alone or a wizard alone. The ability to "discharge" a spell through his or her sword is nice, but forcing Concentration Checks and increasing the penalties for them with characters with specific feats that cause spellcasters grief can stop him in his track.
For that matter, spells like Blindness, Hold Person, Touch of Idiocy, and the like can also cause a Magus a bit of grief. You just have to remember the Action Economy (for instance, I'd suggest adding 50% of average HP monsters over 25% of full HP monsters because of that action economy).
And the Magus will also have a problem with multiple opponents. If you have the option of a (for example) CR5 enemy or four CR3 enemies... go with the latter. The Magus may take out one foe with a hit but then the other three get to play sword-tag. The extra "bodies" will force the Magus to either burn through spells or husband them and rely primarily on hand-to-hand and thus reduce his effectiveness.
(This is also how you deal with a Gunslinger - multiple enemies. A Gunslinger facing one huge demon would likely be less stressed than facing a dozen smaller, yet still nasty, demons.)

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Yeah, that's exactly what I'm going to be going for, Tangent. It's all about the Action Economy, and if there a more little guys, the spells for the Magus won't come out as often.
As for the concentration checks in combat, he carries a whip (ranged melee attack) so I don't believe that he will have to make that many. Unless he's threatened by a creature with reach, for example. I can't wait for Xanesha to be unleashed on the party. I can't wait to smack them down just before they come back and claim victory. This makes them happy, and in turn, this makes me happy.
And Are, I have thought very hard about this. I'm not worried about the Ranger, because she's getting Rapid Shot and very likely Manyshot down the road, so she'll be able to kick some butt. The Cleric just likes to stand there and hit things, summon his ghost weapon thingy and heal every so often. The Bard just likes dancing and buffing/removing de-buffs. The Rogue joining the party will be doing some pretty sick sneak attack damage. It's just the Alpha Strike I'm worried about mostly. But with everyone's tips, I think that I can manage that effectively.
It's worth noting that the two big things the group enjoys is revealing mysteries and challenging tactical combat. They like winning, but they want to feel like they had to try to win. I can do the mystery part no problem, but as a relatively new GM, I must admit I'm not the best at spotting weaknesses and exploiting them to give a sense of danger, hence this post.
I'll see how I go with my plans, but as I said, as the GM pretty much everything is fluid to me. If there are suddenly less hitpoints on a creature, then so be it! And if I think things are too hard, I'll dial back the encounters to hit the sweet spot. The players trust me, and they *think* I'm playing it straight, adventure as written with some adjustments for better play, but I'm not - as long as we're all having fun, they get their challenge, I get to play with some interesting monsters/mechanics and tell an awesome story, then we've all won.

Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

Never use singular villains. Never. Action economy will have them diminished to 1-round wonders--where most of the times they will not act once...
After a great deal of experimentation, I found a way around that. I took a leaf out of 4Es book with the idea of solos, and the improved it. Basically, I have a stackable template. Each increment of said template gives the monster and extra block of full hit points, plus a save reroll (which is used, effectively gives them a negative level). The monsters can also expend an undamaged block of hit points to get rid of and instant save-or-die as a reaction, or as a Swift action at the end of their turn to basically Iron Heart Surge away any effect they don't like.
It works beautifully. It means that the monsters are defensively much harder to kill, without going too much on the offense scale and they can't be undramatically taken out with one failed save right away AND at the same time ensuring that save-or-dies and status effects still contribute, even if they don't have their full effect (indeed, there's some arguement you hold them as finishers).
I have absolutely abused this idea since I first started using because it works so well - especially since I'm now running for a party double the size of the advanture path's base four characters.
(I can probably find a link to the actual template somewhere, if anyone is interested.)

Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

Aotrscommander wrote:(I can probably find a link to the actual template somewhere, if anyone is interested.)I am indeed interested ;-)
Link provided!
Worth noting, as I said later in the thread I that post is from, that if the regular boss monsters are providing the party with a sufficent challenge, this probably isn't needed, so you really do need to apply it with consideration to your exact party size and optimisation level. (If you have a lot of characters, but low-optimisation, you might consider not using maximum hits, but average or something for each hit point block, for example.) Someone later in that thread mentioned about uberchargers, for example. I said if they are that big a problem, you just stack enough templates until it can, and the means they HAVE to get the ubercharger in...
(Though the easier way to discourage the players from making them that big a problem is throw uberchargers right back at them and they'll either work out ways they can stop them ubercharging - which you can then nick - or they'll be so sick of it they beg you for a gentleman's agreement not to use them!)
Generally, though, if you have mid-to-high level optimisation and/or large number of characters, 1-3 levels as is will be plenty.

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The black raven wrote:Aotrscommander wrote:(I can probably find a link to the actual template somewhere, if anyone is interested.)I am indeed interested ;-)Link provided!
Worth noting, as I said later in the thread I that post is from, that if the regular boss monsters are providing the party with a sufficent challenge, this probably isn't needed, so you really do need to apply it with consideration to your exact party size and optimisation level. (If you have a lot of characters, but low-optimisation, you might consider not using maximum hits, but average or something for each hit point block, for example.) Someone later in that thread mentioned about uberchargers, for example. I said if they are that big a problem, you just stack enough templates until it can, and the means they HAVE to get the ubercharger in...
(Though the easier way to discourage the players from making them that big a problem is throw uberchargers right back at them and they'll either work out ways they can stop them ubercharging - which you can then nick - or they'll be so sick of it they beg you for a gentleman's agreement not to use them!)
Generally, though, if you have mid-to-high level optimisation and/or large number of characters, 1-3 levels as is will be plenty.
Wow. I love it. My players will hate it (and me). I will of course shift the blame to you.
Everybody will be so happy :-))

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Link provided!
Worth noting, as I said later in the thread I that post is from, that if the regular boss monsters are providing the party with a sufficent challenge, this probably isn't needed, so you really do need to apply it with consideration to your exact party size and optimisation level. (If you have a lot of characters, but low-optimisation, you might consider not using maximum hits, but average or something for each hit point block, for example.) Someone later in that thread mentioned about uberchargers, for example. I said if they are that big a problem, you just stack enough templates until it can, and the means they HAVE to get the ubercharger in...
(Though the easier way to discourage the players from making them that big a problem is throw uberchargers right back at them and they'll either work out ways they can stop them ubercharging - which you can then nick - or they'll be so sick of it they beg you for a gentleman's agreement not to use them!)
Generally, though, if you have mid-to-high level optimisation and/or large number of characters, 1-3 levels as is will be plenty.
Nice! Don't know if I'll have a need to use it, but if I do, I'm going to use it!

Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

Actually, while we're on the subject of 20-point buys, how much higher are the stats for a 20 than a 15? I understand that 15-PF is equivilent to a 25-3.5, but what I don't know is how much higher a 20-PF is. (In my own games I have used neither, beginning in 3.0 by rolling and then moving directly to a point-for-point system, starting with base 8 and 30-36 points.)
If a 15-point is 15,14,13,12,10,8, what's a 20 in the same standard?
(By comparison my 30 and 36 come out to something like 18,16,14,12,10,8 and 18,18,16,14,10,8.) I want to know mostly so I know how much to adjust (if at all) the NPCs in the later AP/modules that are built on a 20-point buy.

Kalshane |
Actually, while we're on the subject of 20-point buys, how much higher are the stats for a 20 than a 15? I understand that 15-PF is equivilent to a 25-3.5, but what I don't know is how much higher a 20-PF is. (In my own games I have used neither, beginning in 3.0 by rolling and then moving directly to a point-for-point system, starting with base 8 and 30-36 points.)
If a 15-point is 15,14,13,12,10,8, what's a 20 in the same standard?
(By comparison my 30 and 36 come out to something like 18,16,14,12,10,8 and 18,18,16,14,10,8.) I want to know mostly so I know how much to adjust (if at all) the NPCs in the later AP/modules that are built on a 20-point buy.
I don't know if there's an official 20 point array. I always do 16/14/13/12/10/10 for generic 20 point buy, but I hate dump-statting.
You could also do 16/15/13/12/10/8 or 16/14/14/12/10/8

Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

Ace, thanks! That gives me some idea of what what sort of numbers I'm looking it (about 26-27 Aotrs-points or thereabouts, as opposed to a PF-15/3.5-25 which is about 24 Aotrs-points). So not a great deal of difference (to me!), all things considered. (When doing my own NPCs, I tend to either use the Elite array, or what I term the "munchkin array", which is the aforementioned 18/16/14/12/10/8 or variant thereof.)