on paragon surge


Rules Questions


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1)isnt this spell a bit too powerful?i know this has ben discussed before,but is there a single reason why a human sorcerer or oracle,or wizard or cleric fwiw, shouldn't take the racial heritage feat? every spell you want at best, one feat to rule them all at worst.

2)..and since i have to exploit this..can i ,as a wizard,take the discovery wich lets you prepare spells in 15min, cast an extended ps, and have any metamagic i want?can i prepare spell as above using opposition research as the bonus feat?


It's not that impressive. There are 2nd level spells that give +4 to your ability scores so this is nothing new. And this spell is a level higher. What do you get for that extra spell level? Temporary use of a feat for 1 minute/level.

1) "every spell you want"? How does the Racial Heritage feat give someone every spell they want? Did you mean every feat you want, or did I miss something?

2) Yes, any metamagic you want, once you're at least 8th level. I don't think the opposition research changes anything, if you have it, you could use it.


1) as a sorcerer,you take expanded arcana.as an oracle you take the almight grater heldritch heritage,arcana bloodline.
edit:and as a wizard you take preferred spell

2) i meant if you can take opposition research as the feat granted from ps,and prepare spells

o and the 2nd lvl spell become useless after 4-5 lvl,since they dont stack with items


I agree that it is a very powerful spell. Here is a description of what the OP was saying:

Spoiler:
There are a few feats in particular that this spell can grant to ridiculous effect.
Sorcerer/Oracle:
The feat expanded arcana allows a spontaneous caster to add a spell to their spell list for several minutes, which is very powerful at the higher levels for immediate access to niche, utility, or long duration buffing.
Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Witches:
Preferred spell casters, on the other hand, have to take heightened spell as a prequesite but still qualify for preferred spell which causes a spell known to become spontaneously castable, so that prepared casters can spontaneously access their spell list as well.
Oracle only:
A further contender, is if an oracle takes skill focus(knowledge: their choice) and eldritch heritage(arcana) as prequesite feats (which grants a familiar or spell bonded item, not a bad deal) can use paragon surge on improved eldritch heritage(arcana) which allows for the oracle to pull wizard/sorcerer spells onto their spell list spontaneously, as well as cleric/oracle spells through expanded arcana.

However, ninjaijk, you cannot use paragon surge on opposition research because opposition research is an arcane discovery. it is not a feat, it is something that a wizard can take instead of their bonus feat.


However, only half-elves can use the spell. The OP is saying that this spell is so useful for all casters that anyone who qualifies for racial heritage(half-elf) would take it only to have access to this spell, and that fails the sniff check.


partyrico wrote:
it is not a feat, it is something that a wizard can take instead of their bonus feat.

the text says:

"A Wizard can learn an arcane discovery in place of a regular feat or Wizard bonus feat."

so,my interpretation is: the feat granted by the spell is not "regular",and therefore a wizard cannot chose an arcane discovery.

partyrico wrote:
However, only half-elves can use the spell. The OP is saying that this spell is so useful for all casters that anyone who qualifies for racial heritage(half-elf) would take it only to have access to this spell, and that fails the sniff check.

yes.imo a caster not taking this,is a caster not knowing about this.


With a recent FAQ in mind, both Half-orcs and Humans can use it via Racial Heritage.


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The only reason Paragon Surge is amazingly great is because of Expanded Arcana/Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane).

If you close that loophole (for example, you can't take those specific feats, or you have to make the same choices every time you take them--i.e. get the same spells), it's kind of a weak spell. No other feat on the fly seems worth a 3rd level spell to me.


I still don't see why some people get all bent out of shape over this. The person is after all taking two rounds and two spell slots to pull this off. Hardly something that is useful in an emergency.

Even if you quicken it then you are spending a much more valuable spell slot. With a metamagic rod is the only time it gets silly and well that's more because metamagic rods are far to good.

Its pretty much not useable in battle (without quicken anyway.) and outside of battle it makes them a wizard that has to drop two spell slots rather then take 15 mins to prepare the needed spell. So an extra spell slot to save a little bit of time that rarely matters out of combat? Sure.


Stome wrote:
I still don't see why some people get all bent out of shape over this. The person is after all taking two rounds and two spell slots to pull this off. Hardly something that is useful in an emergency.

On the other hand, for a spontaneous caster, it pretty much changes his repertoire to 'all spells on the Sor/Wiz list'.

If going the Eldritch Heritage route, getting access to the complete Sor/Wiz list as an Oracle does seem worth a level 3 slot for me.


Stome wrote:
I still don't see why some people get all bent out of shape over this.

maybe i wasnt clear enough,i will try again:

if you play a human sorcerer,you want racial heritage,and ps perfected by lvl 15.realy,this option is so good,there is no reason to skip on it.i mean,no reason.there is no build wich can put one or two feat slot at a better use.and there is no spell wich you rather want perfect other than this one.i mean,you want a quickened maximized intensificated empowered fireball? paragon surge is still better.if your enemy has fire resistance (say,a daemon),you epic fireball is totally useless.with ps,and some rank in knowledge,you will always have the exact spell your enemy is most vulnerable to.without casting time increase,and your 9th level slots all open.
and when it comes to oracles,it become ridicously overpowered.

if you build characters with optimization in mind,there is no reason to play a sorcerer or oracle (or bard) not human or half elf or half human otherwise.then,the human favored class bonus becomes obsolete,therefore you can easy go full hp.
as i see it,every other sorcerer build will be greatly underdog.
again,im not speaking about the oracle,compred to wich every other build of every other class of the game will be greatly underdog.
does any one think about the ability to cast the exact battelfield control you need at any given time? + every blast you need of every energy type you need + every buff + every debuff.
realy.its like god x god x god x god.god^4 is too much for me.

and for the wizard and the cleric,although they will benefit a lot less,the same holds true.having full spontaneus access to your spellbook by lvl 15 (or less with a MINOR rod),is just too good to pass.

speaking of non casting feats,i still think this is very useful.not nearly as much as casting,but still useful.it what this spell was designed for,so no overpowered,but a good 3rd lvl spell.and the more supplement will be pubblished,the more feats will come.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

You can only have one Paragon Surge active at a time, though, as it is a spell of the Polymorph subschool.

Also, in PFS, it is still restricted to Half-elves only, due to the "race restriction" clause in the Additional Resources that supercedes the recent FAQ on Half-elves and Half-orcs.

I realize most people are aware of this, but thought I'd mention it in case someone wasn't.


Nefreet wrote:

You can only have one Paragon Surge active at a time, though, as it is a spell of the Polymorph subschool.

Also, in PFS, it is still restricted to Half-elves only, due to the "race restriction" clause in the Additional Resources that supercedes the recent FAQ on Half-elves and Half-orcs.

I realize most people are aware of this, but thought I'd mention it in case someone wasn't.

Neither of those even remotely counters the immense utility of having every single spell on your spell list(s) available for the price of a standard action and a third-level spell slot (or wand). The writer of this spell really didn't think things through.


It's also a nice spell to use on your Familiar or Animal Companion (who can ignore the racial requirement).


VRMH wrote:
It's also a nice spell to use on your Familiar or Animal Companion (who can ignore the racial requirement).

O_O

Oh wow. There's got to be something awesome there. Now I'll be distracted all day thinking about it.


Stome wrote:

I still don't see why some people get all bent out of shape over this. The person is after all taking two rounds and two spell slots to pull this off. Hardly something that is useful in an emergency.

Even if you quicken it then you are spending a much more valuable spell slot. With a metamagic rod is the only time it gets silly and well that's more because metamagic rods are far to good.

Its pretty much not useable in battle (without quicken anyway.) and outside of battle it makes them a wizard that has to drop two spell slots rather then take 15 mins to prepare the needed spell. So an extra spell slot to save a little bit of time that rarely matters out of combat? Sure.

No, it really is that awesome.

First, it's not really for combat--that's a silly use of it. It's to allow spontaneous casters to play utility as well or better than a prepared caster. They already have more spell slots, and now they can flex them to pull out the exact right spell that they need.

A wizard can only prepare spells from their spellbook. They need to acquire the spell first. A sorcerer with Paragon Surge doesn't, they can get any spell from the list at any time.

It's even more amazing for an Oracle, since they can use Eldritch Heritage to grab any sorc/wiz spell, too, on the fly, which a Cleric just can't do.

It's crazy good, but only because of Expanded Arcana and Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane. No other usage of it is problematic at all--in fact, just about every other use would be distinctly underpowered.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
VRMH wrote:
It's also a nice spell to use on your Familiar or Animal Companion (who can ignore the racial requirement).

O_O

Oh wow. There's got to be something awesome there. Now I'll be distracted all day thinking about it.

I'll save you the distraction and tell you now that this does not work.

Paragon Surge is not a spell with a target of "You", so it does not work with Share Spells.


Nefreet wrote:
blahpers wrote:
VRMH wrote:
It's also a nice spell to use on your Familiar or Animal Companion (who can ignore the racial requirement).

O_O

Oh wow. There's got to be something awesome there. Now I'll be distracted all day thinking about it.

I'll save you the distraction and tell you now that this does not work.

Paragon Surge is not a spell with a target of "You", so it does not work with Share Spells.

Isn't that the definition of Personal range "Personal: The spell affects only you."

Are there any spells that specifically designate "you" as range.

Longstrider has personal range, would you say a druid can't cast it on an animal companion?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Read Longstrider again. It has a target of "You".


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Two questions , as per eldritch heritage can an oricle cast an arcane spell, is it a "spell of a level you can cast" is the spell effected by armour spell failure ?


mplindustries wrote:
First, it's not really for combat

i disagree.when you get a quiken way to cast it,it becomes THE spell for combat.as i said before,imagine the ammount of battelfield control you can get.you can target the lower save,alter the battelfield in the better way,debuffing the enemy exactly where it hurts more.and if you get bored you can simply get the best blast against that particular enemy,and cook him well.or you can use it for utility.treatmonk's god wizard is a little pussycat compared to the paragon surge oracle.

mplindustries wrote:
It's crazy good, but only because of Expanded Arcana and Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane. No other usage of it is problematic at all--in fact, just about every other use would be distinctly underpowered.

i have to disagree with this either.for sure,it is ridicously broken only when it comes to ea and ieh:a.but it has many other intersting usages.

some example:extra revelation (well,the oracle is unstopable);extra discovery for the alchemist is pretty good too;extra everything really;the familiar thing is also interesting (if it works);preferred spell to a wizard is too good to pass;why a wizard should take opposite research? he take quick study instead,and a cheap minor rod of extended spells,and he have opposite research for any of the two school,or any metamagic he needs;even a ninja with decent umd should invest in a scroll of this,for the extra trick;a stealth character has a lots of other interesting uses too:some example are dampen presence if the critter has blind sight,conceal scent if he has scent;eldritch heritage (other than arcana) if you feel like;extra traits is always usefull:arcane lineage before prepairing spells,and and you have a free discount on metamagic for every spell you want (you dont even need extended spells),and other traits are good,too.and those are the ones that comes in my mind right now,im sure there are other goodies somwere among the hundreds feats pubblished so far.
TL;DR i would not call it underpowered

now,the point here is not that those usages are -overpowered-.the point is that any class who could access this,actually should.
you can find this in the game design dictionary,under the entry "broken".


Nefreet wrote:
blahpers wrote:
VRMH wrote:
It's also a nice spell to use on your Familiar or Animal Companion (who can ignore the racial requirement).

O_O

Oh wow. There's got to be something awesome there. Now I'll be distracted all day thinking about it.

I'll save you the distraction and tell you now that this does not work.

Paragon Surge is not a spell with a target of "You", so it does not work with Share Spells.

RAW, correct. Aside from that, does it really make sense that the spell has no target when it clearly acts upon the caster? I can't think of any other examples of "Range personal" that don't have a target specifier. I sincerely doubt that the designers left the target specifier out specifically to preclude use on a familiar, as that would imply that they thought the spell through (which they obviously didn't). On those grounds, I suspect it's a typo--every spell has a target, however obvious that target might be, and this one is obviously "You".

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, of course.


I'm sure they fully considered that Paragon Surge would let the caster pick up say Spell Perfection X spell as needed as well as metamagic feats on the fly, combat skills when needed, and even skill focuses when necessary. Sure they may not realized how powerful Paragon Surge was with Expanded Arcana and Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane, but surely they gave thought to the general power level of a floating feat.


Psi51 wrote:

Two questions , as per eldritch heritage can an oricle cast an arcane spell, is it a "spell of a level you can cast" is the spell effected by armour spell failure ?

The oracle can cast spells that are on the Wizard/Sorcerer list (which are not arcane spells, see below, if thats what you were asking) provided they are selected with New Arcana off of Improved Eldritch Heritage and are off a spell lever you can cast. A spell level you could cast at 11th level for an oracle is a 5th level spell. The spell level that at 12th level oracle could cast is a 6th level spell (and so on).

The spell is not affected by armor spell failure because it is not an arcane spell. A spell selected by New Arcana is simply one that now appears on the oracle spell list and is cast like any other spell the oracle cast (ie. divine and therefore not subject to armor failure.)

Hope that helps!


Paragon Surge is pretty useful out of combat. In comabat it's...meh...unless you can cast it as a swift action. Since it's a 3rd level spell lots of people get exposed to it. I've got to wonder how many "nerf this" posts for upper level spells we'd have if the same percentages of people were seeing them.


Havoq wrote:

Paragon Surge is pretty useful out of combat. In comabat it's...meh...unless you can cast it as a swift action. Since it's a 3rd level spell lots of people get exposed to it. I've got to wonder how many "nerf this" posts for upper level spells we'd have if the same percentages of people were seeing them.

Higher level spells generally get the "Well its past 12th level, casters rule the game now."


Half-Elves aren't a valid option for racial heritage because Half-Elf isn't a humanoid subtype. Half-Elves have the human and elf subtypes, so paragon surge is literally a half-elf only spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
Psi51 wrote:

Two questions , as per eldritch heritage can an oricle cast an arcane spell, is it a "spell of a level you can cast" is the spell effected by armour spell failure ?

The oracle can cast spells that are on the Wizard/Sorcerer list (which are not arcane spells, see below, if thats what you were asking) provided they are selected with New Arcana off of Improved Eldritch Heritage and are off a spell lever you can cast. A spell level you could cast at 11th level for an oracle is a 5th level spell. The spell level that at 12th level oracle could cast is a 6th level spell (and so on).

The spell is not affected by armor spell failure because it is not an arcane spell. A spell selected by New Arcana is simply one that now appears on the oracle spell list and is cast like any other spell the oracle cast (ie. divine and therefore not subject to armor failure.)

Hope that helps!

Yep it helps I was under the impression that the spells you gainedwould be arcane, but if they can be divine it makes perfect sense.

Thanks


Martiln wrote:
Half-Elves aren't a valid option for racial heritage because Half-Elf isn't a humanoid subtype. Half-Elves have the human and elf subtypes, so paragon surge is literally a half-elf only spell.

Because of a recent FAQ for things related to race if a human took Racial Heritage (Elf) they count as human and elf and there for qualify for anything that requires half-elf, this also means that half elves can take elf or human racial archetypes as well now.

here
here

Grand Lodge

Martiln wrote:
Half-Elves aren't a valid option for racial heritage because Half-Elf isn't a humanoid subtype. Half-Elves have the human and elf subtypes, so paragon surge is literally a half-elf only spell.

Half-elf is a race and is humanoid, thus it's a humanoid race. Racial Heritage doesn't refer to subtypes anywhere.

dark78660 wrote:
Because of a recent FAQ for things related to race if a human took Racial Heritage (Elf) they count as human and elf and there for qualify for anything that requires half-elf

I'm not sure how you get there. Neither a human nor an elf counts as a half-elf.


Havoq wrote:

I've got to wonder how many "nerf this" posts for upper level spells we'd have if the same percentages of people were seeing them.

interesting,can you provide some examples? but remember,every spell you will cite is just one of the reason why the surge needs a nerf...

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