Would the feat "Guided Hand" work with CMB checks?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

A cleric of Calistria takes the feat Guided Hand. She wants to use the whip to make a trip attempt. Does Guided Hand apply to CMB?

Relevant section of CMB:

Quote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Technically, this isn't a bonus to an attack roll. You're replacing the normal ability modifier with WIS instead. However, I personally think it could work with CMB, it's still just one ability you're using.

Thoughts?


Combat Maneuvers ARE attack rolls.

"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."

Go ahead. You're fine as far as I understand it. Of course everyone is welcome to make me look the fool. I've been known to be wrong!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes.

Anything that adds to, or alters, attack rolls, does so to Combat Maneuvers as well, because Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls.

This is why Weapon Finesse can be used to alter the stat used when performing Combat Maneuvers with the appropriate weapons.

Scarab Sages

Awesome. I told the player to go with it unless I had some *really* convincing arguments otherwise, but it seemed fine. Thanks for the confirmations thus far. :)


It is worth noting that only a few combat maneuvers can be performed with a weapon. Primarily trip, disarm, and sunder. Most other combat maneuvers cannot be performed with a weapon and thus Guided Hand will be of no help to those maneuvers.

- Gauss

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes.

Anything that adds to, or alters, attack rolls, does so to Combat Maneuvers as well, because Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls.

This is why Weapon Finesse can be used to alter the stat used when performing Combat Maneuvers with the appropriate weapons.

Actually... this brings up a good point, one that hurts the case for Guided Hand with CMB. As far as I know, Weapon Finesse *can't* be used with CMB. After all, isn't that why Agile Maneuvers exists?

I could be wrong, perhaps Agile Maneuvers is if you want Dex with everything, where-as Weapon Finesse only applies with light weapons and unarmed... though that still seems to cover a lot of things you'd use Agile Maneuvers for. I actually am less certain now.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There are exceptions of course.

So, there are situations in which Combat Maneuvers besides Disarm, Sunder, and Trip can be performed with a weapon.


Karui Kage wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes.

Anything that adds to, or alters, attack rolls, does so to Combat Maneuvers as well, because Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls.

This is why Weapon Finesse can be used to alter the stat used when performing Combat Maneuvers with the appropriate weapons.

Actually... this brings up a good point, one that hurts the case for Guided Hand with CMB. As far as I know, Weapon Finesse *can't* be used with CMB. After all, isn't that why Agile Maneuvers exists?

I could be wrong, perhaps Agile Maneuvers is if you want Dex with everything, where-as Weapon Finesse only applies with light weapons and unarmed... though that still seems to cover a lot of things you'd use Agile Maneuvers for. I actually am less certain now.

Weapon Finesse only applies on finesse weapons and only works on sunder, disarm and trip iirc. Learning that has made agile maneuvers worse in my head but if you want to do dex grappling or what not far be it from me


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Karui Kage, this has been answered in a couple FAQs and a blog.

In short, all bonuses that can be applied to your weapon can be applied to a combat maneuver with that weapon.

However, only a few combat maneuvers are able to be performed with a weapon. Those being mainly: Disarm, Sunder, and Trip. Some of the others are debated and may be up to GM fiat.

- Gauss

Edit:
Weapon Finesse FAQ

Trip FAQ

Combat Maneuver Blog

Scarab Sages

Awesome, thanks for the quick link! Glad to see the original call is still good. :)


As the player in question: Awesome! Now I just need to level up a few times to get the feat!


But would it apply to CMD?


No, CMD is more discriminating.

CRB p199 CMB wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
CRB p199 CMD wrote:
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature’s AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

The bolded section in CMB is why you can use the bonuses to specific combat maneuvers as per the FAQ/Blog. There is no similar line for CMD.

Note: certain abilities, such as Weapon Training, are exceptions and may apply to CMD for specific checks (such as Disarm or Sunder).

- Gauss

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