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We all know and love Bolka, the Dwarven Goddess of Marriage (mostly arranged marriages). But in one of the Faiths and Religions books, it is mentioned that her clergy assist 'confirmed bachelors find a wife'.
This seems pretty innocent to me, but the good olden days definition of 'confirmed bachelor' is taken to mean homosexual male. As Golarion is a setting closer to the Victorian age than present day and typically in fantasy Dwarves are very conservative, should we read into this that Bolka has a religious agenda versus homosexuality in Dwarven society?
Personally my theory is that Bolka loves all marriage, and just as long as the consenting same sex partners put on a proper do for the rest of the clan and there's plenty of Dwarven oaths and vows and all that good stuff, your wedding is blessed. But what if...?
Would love to get some developer feedback - Does Bolka have an anti-gay belief structure? How are homosexual dwarves dealing with Bolkan Inquisitors? Is there going to be an Inquisitor archetype with a gaydar ability? Are there underground gay camps?
MY DWARVEN STONEMOTHER OF BOLKA NEEDS TO KNOW THE TRUTH!!!
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Given that Bolka is neutral good, her being homophobic seems incongruous. I'm pretty sure "confirmed bachelor" means just that -- she's in favor of marriage for everyone, regardless of gender, and her clergy likes to convince people that have declared themselves uninterested in marriage (such as confirmed bachelors) to find a spouse.
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As a "confirmed bachelor" who is straight, I think it's pretty ignorant to go around assuming you can tell the orientation of other people, particularly strangers and casual acquaintances, based on whether they're in a relationship or not.
Oh, and the real world association of "confirmed bachelor" and "gay", to the extent that it holds, holds because gays were banned from marrying until very recently. In a world where gays were not discriminated against, there's no reason to think gays would be more likely to be single than straight men. So the proportion of "confirmed bachelors" that are straight in such a world would be similar to the proportion of adult males who are straight.
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Given that Bolka is neutral good, her being homophobic seems incongruous. I'm pretty sure "confirmed bachelor" means just that -- she's in favor of marriage for everyone, regardless of gender, and her clergy likes to convince people that have declared themselves uninterested in marriage (such as confirmed bachelors) to find a spouse.
good people don't have phobias?
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Mulgar, yeah, there's a giant history of interventionist good people doing really evil things for what they see as the greater good.
My Stonemother character doesn't care about your orientation, but she does believe that marriage comes before love. Marriage -> Love -> Sex. It's the pyramid of a happy relationship.
Final note: FEMALE DWARVES DON'T HAVE BEARDS IN GOLARION! If you get them in the right light you can see their moustaches. But no. No beards.
I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.
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I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.
Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....
Independent of alignment stuff,
I don't think there's sufficient justification to claim that this goddess is 'homophobic' or 'antigay'.
Even if you take 'confirmed bachelor' to mean 'homosexual male', I don't see the justification to read an 'antigay' belief structure there...
It can be wholly accepting of gay men (in or out of a committed gay relationship)
to promote them finding a wife, because why is having a wife exclusive of gay love?
Since I don't see anything promoting some post-Renaissance conflation of Love and Marriage, or any Judeo-Christian demonizing of Sex in general outside of the minimum viable bounds (i.e. outside of monogamous hetero reproductive sex, which marginalizes gays), I don't see any basis why this attitude of a Dwarven goddess in Golarion should be construed as anti-gay.
Your character could very well themself be a homosexual Cleric/Inquisitor of Bolka, promoting marriage even when at least one of the members isn't significantly sexually motivated by the other's gender. Some homosexual marriages could very well be blessed by Bolka (if that's the case, they wouldn't be 'bachelors'), we don't really know whether such things are approved marriages by Bolka. If they don't happen to be, her church's aim could be to pair one or both of them up with one or two members of the opposite sex for purposes of the social structure of marriage... Or if homo marriages are 'Blessed by Bolka(tm)', her church would only aim to pair up those homosexual (and hetero) Dwarves that didn't find a long-term lover, with a spouse of the opposite gender could be appropriate by Bolkan lore. It doesn't seem clear what the relationship between reproductive mating and marriage is for Bolka, marriage could be the means to ensure reproduction even for homosexual Dwarves, or it could have nothing to do with that at all, with reproductive concerns dealt with via other means or simply ignored.
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I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....
Good people should strive to overcome those fears though, and not let them rule them or spill over to hurt others. That, and the expectations of a god of Good are much higher.
Personally, the only good god that seems like he would get remotely grumpy about such things is Erastil, and that's more about family and community expectations rather than the gender of those getting married. That is, he'd be cool with gay marriage. But he would have certain expectations, same as everyone else.
Erastil: So, you and Danien are husband and husband then?
Erastil Worshipper Who Is Dealing With His God Talking To Him Remarkably Well: Yes sir, Your Honor.
Erastil: So...when are you two going to have kids?
EWWIDWHGTTHRW: I....don't think that's how it works, sir.
Erastil: Well have you tried.
EWWIDWHGTTHRW: ....can't we just adopt?
Erastil: Yeah. Yeah, that works. If you want to let someone else do all the heavy lifting getting that baby made.
EWWIDWHGTTHRW: Oh come on! Humans don't work that way!
Erastil: Oh @#$%, this is Golarion, not Goralion. Different races, damn. My mistake! You mortals and your anatomy are all over the place. Yeah, adoption is fine. Go do that.
EWWIDWHGTTHRW: And that is your will, your Grace?
Erastil. Yeah, sure. .... Are you sure you two can't make a baby?
EWWIDWHGTTHRW: Oh for god's sake!
Erastil: That's why I'm asking!
Bolka seems pretty solidly about community expectations though.
" helps foster love between the partners in an arranged marriage."
What are arranged marriages exactly except community expectations?
She seems to promote love between marriage partners, but that may not be romantic love,
or may be facilitating a mammalian sexual reproduction amongst partners who aren't that sexually attracted to each other,
hardly that uncommon a thing for happily openly homosexual humans who still have a desire to reproduce
to find a 'partner' for that activity, which doesn't hold any conflict with their other romantic partnership.
If homosexuals are at all a significant proportion of those eligible for Bolkanites' 'assistance',
being open and accepting of homosexuality may very well be exactly part of the job description,
if one understands Bolka a promoting social integration rather than oppressing or repressing any sexual or romantic tendencies.
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I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....
I think perhaps you are taking the root of the word too literally. In contemporary American English, the term refers not just to fear of homosexuality, but to discrimination against and hatred of people with same-sex attractions. Essentially, misogyny : women or racism : African-Americans, etc. as homophobia : LGBT folks.
I'm not really a fan of Paizo's seeming policy that even a single flaw boots you out of the Good alignment completely.
Yeah I hear you. It would logically suggest that the only reason someone could be homophobic is because they accepted some evil into their soul. I certainly don't believe that everyone on Earth who is homophobic is "not good".
On the other hand, I hate homophobia as much as the Paizonans do, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that making a good deity homophobic meant that I had any sympathy whatsoever for homophobic sentiments. I'd make the same call. So it strikes me as an ideological decision, rather than a realistic/balanced one. Which I can completely understand. If I was homosexual and a game company I loved made good deities homophobic, I'd probably not buy their stuff ever again.
And, as mentioned, deities should be held to higher standards than the rest of us - they're gods, after all, and they don't have the excuses of low intelligence, poor upbringing, ignorance, cultural indoctrination, or a make believe religion forcing toxic beliefs down their throats.
I'm not really a fan of Paizo's seeming policy that even a single flaw boots you out of the Good alignment completely.
You should talk to Erastil about that. :)
We all know and love Bolka, the Dwarven Goddess of Marriage (mostly arranged marriages). But in one of the Faiths and Religions books, it is mentioned that her clergy assist 'confirmed bachelors find a wife'.
I think that was just a text error on the writers part. Better might have been: 'confirmed bachelors find a spouse'
Ms. Price, can you make sure that gets updated in any future works about Bolka. ;)
Thank you for the morning laugh.Erastil: Oh @#$%, this is Golarion, not Goralion. Different races, damn. My mistake! You mortals and your anatomy are all over the place. Yeah, adoption is fine. Go do that.
Exactly my point.
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Traditionally speaking, the purpose of marriage - particularly beneath divine or religious oversight - was for the purposes of procreation... so I would presume the Goddess of Marriage would be encouraging heterosexual marriage. For what it's worth, however, a person (or a deity) can run around encouraging heterosexuals to get married without automatically being a homophobe.
My mother, for instance.
It may not be phobic at all, it could be more a vision of race survival.
Posit: The dwarven race is in decline and likely to die out in the short future (remember what is short to us is infinitesimally small to a gods life span).
Answer: Make more dwarven babies!
Therefore the quote that a dwarven bachelor should find a wife could simply be a desire by the god to ensure the dwarven race perpetuates and lives on.
I'm not really a fan of Paizo's seeming policy that even a single flaw boots you out of the Good alignment completely.
This is misinterpreting it entirely.
I doubt having a few minor flaws (a knee jerk reaction to the LGBT community, or some deep-seated racism with severe roots in your past) would entirely preclude you from the good alignment because that sort of discrimination is not good either. If you join a good aligned church as a flawed person then you can certainly expect to have you fellows try to remove these views.
Good in Pathfinder is not simply from the single point of perspective that we gamers and our characters have. Good here is a perfect universal concept. Not only does it involve stopping those that would take advantage of the weak or fighting otherworldly horrors, it also involves the much more quiet fight of trying to help someone become a better person. Would Good open its doors to racists and homophobes? Yes but it would try, through one method or another to convince them to set aside their hatreds.
In a combat based game we usually only see Good defended as this perfect concept and rarely do we have to deal with how Good is handled in the 'fluff' of the game. I'm sure Bolkan Clerics do strive to see everyone in their communities married off and popping out babies but I'm sure they also later serve as marriage councilors and maybe even assist in divorces if there is no way forward for the couple.
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I'm not really a fan of Paizo's seeming policy that even a single flaw boots you out of the Good alignment completely.
It doesn't, for humans. You can find plenty of good-aligned NPCs who have obvious flaws in our products.
Deities, however, who are personifications of different forces/qualities/etc. are a bit different from humans. There's certainly internal debate about what "good" means for deities (see: Erastil, for example), but in general -- outside of Paizo's stuff as well -- deities are more completely the thing they represent. While a human in favor of romantic love might still decide to take a break from it, Aphrodite certainly doesn't. Because she is it.
And in some ways, RPG gods are even more restricted than real-world deities. We don't have an objective alignment system in reality. So some people could see Aphrodite as a good, if temperamental and dangerous deity, because love is a force for good, etc., while others could see her as an evil force of temptation, because lust can be destructive, etc. She can embody everyone's conception of beauty/love/desire, and all the complexities and ambiguities therein, and everyone can be right about her. She is a powerful deity of one of the greatest joys most people experience. She's also a powerful deity of some of the worst things most people experience. She can be good and evil and outside morality.
Most things in life aren't purely good or purely evil.
When you have to stick a "CE" or "NG" on a deity, you also have to think pretty hard about their portfolio, and how you reconcile the fact that most of the things they're likely to represent have both beneficial and harmful aspects with the personification of those things having to conform to an alignment.
Traditionally speaking, the purpose of marriage - particularly beneath divine or religious oversight - was for the purposes of procreation... so I would presume the Goddess of Marriage would be encouraging heterosexual marriage. For what it's worth, however, a person (or a deity) can run around encouraging heterosexuals to get married without automatically being a homophobe.
My mother, for instance.
Not really -- historically, the economic and alliance aspects have been just as, if not more, important. And Bolka is a goddess of marriage, not of childbirth. Golarion's history and culture isn't Earth's, and things that are "traditionally" associated on Earth aren't always on Golarion.
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Given how typically conservative dwarven society is, I wouldn't be surprised if Bolka's goal is uniting man-dwarf and fem-dwarf in marriage. That's not to say she's homophobic: She certainly wouldn't be opposed to homosexuality, but I've always seen dwarves as being very conservative and fixed on tradition, which leads me to believe that if she is truly a DWARVEN goddess, then she would lean towards being conservative in regards to relationships as well.
Just my 2c.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not really -- historically, the economic and alliance aspects have been just as, if not more, important. And Bolka is a goddess of marriage, not of childbirth. Golarion's history and culture isn't Earth's, and things that are "traditionally" associated on Earth aren't always on Golarion.Traditionally speaking, the purpose of marriage - particularly beneath divine or religious oversight - was for the purposes of procreation... so I would presume the Goddess of Marriage would be encouraging heterosexual marriage. For what it's worth, however, a person (or a deity) can run around encouraging heterosexuals to get married without automatically being a homophobe.
My mother, for instance.
Aside, in my Taldor, homosexuality is kind of ignored by the noble classes, as long as it doesn't get in the way of politics. Lady Sappho can spend her romantic nights with whomever she wants, but when her family says it's time to marry Prince Xanax, she'll need to 'close her eyes and think of Taldor.' She can even still see the ladies on the side (and he the men) as long as they DADT.
This has also lead to the decline of Erastil's faith among the nobility.
Not really -- historically, the economic and alliance aspects have been just as, if not more, important.
You can't separate the economic and alliance aspects from the procreation aspect. If two kings make an agreement, how can they be held to it? Well, if king A marries king B's daughter, then king B is helping his own grandchildren every time he helps king A. If king B's daughter dies without issue, the surety on the alliance is gone.
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Regarding the "does one flaw make you non-good" comment: As Jessica said, everyone interprets alignment differently--even within the Paizo offices. Hence the reason we often try to leave things up to GMs as much as possible.
Interpreting deity alignments in Golarion is really complicated. If they were all 100% "correct" in every way, they would all be functionally the same god, with the same views. As it is, even aside from the issue of whether a single backward (to some viewpoints) belief can kick a deity out of being "good," there are *already* different interpretations of goodness between the gods. If you're Iomedae, you might think Cayden Cailean is basically a good guy, but clearly not *as* good because he's lazy and drunk and shirks responsibilities. At the same time, if you're Cayden Cailean, Iomedae's got a lot of great principles, but she's all work and no play, and WAY too interested in telling other people what to do. So who's the "most good"? It's all in the eye of the mortal beholder--and that's where it should be.
Alignment battles are a time-honored part of our hobby, and I'd hate to see them go away. While we in the office may take specific stances and say that a given action or viewpoint is "good" or not in the context of Golarion's alignment system, recognize that that's simply our interpretation. If you disagree--play it differently. If you find it offensive--please let us know, as while we're willing to ruffle some feathers if we all feel strongly enough as a team (because hey, we built this soapbox, and we might as well stand on it!), accidentally offending people is something we try really hard to avoid, as we want the hobby to be fun and inclusive to everyone.
I'll leave you with this final, comforting thought:
WHAT ALIGNMENT IS BATMAN?
*runs away laughing maniacally*
I think that was just a text error on the writers part. Better might have been: 'confirmed bachelors find a spouse'
Ms. Price, can you make sure that gets updated in any future works about Bolka. ;)
I'll definitely speak to the developers, get the story on Bolka, and if that was just an oversight, ask them to correct it. :-)
Not really -- historically, the economic and alliance aspects have been just as, if not more, important.You can't separate the economic and alliance aspects from the procreation aspect. If two kings make an agreement, how can they be held to it? Well, if king A marries king B's daughter, then king B is helping his own grandchildren every time he helps king A. If king B's daughter dies without issue, the surety on the alliance is gone.
Yes you can, especially when you're not talking about nobility, and I think you should perhaps go read about alliance marriages. Whether the alliance lasted seems to be pretty independent of whether there was offspring.
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Not to over simply things, but wouldn't the easiest way to figure this out be to ask what the role of marriage is in traditional dwarven culture on golarion is?
If marriage is meant to create a bond between two dwarven families, is that bond predicated on the idea of offspring, or is it just because two members are now joined together?
I haven't read Dwarves of Golarion, so I'm just going off of what I recall from the CRB, but I'd assume Bolka probably doesn't even think about homosexuality. If anything, she's confused by it, because why wouldn't you want to get married and have children and progress the race? And if Love isn't really what she's after, then I would definitely see her as more of the "Hey, what you and your adventuring pals do on the weekend is your thing, just make sure your wife and kid are taken care of."
Of course, if you assume a Marriage Goddess is also a goddess of being faithful to your partner, then that would go out the window.
But at the end of the day, she's a Good goddess, which to me means that even though they strive to find everyone a marriage partner, they're not going to send the inquisitor squad after you if you don't. Bolkan Inquisitors are probably just shaking their heads at gay couples, shrugging and going, "As long as they're happy I guess." I'm sure there is no shortage of dwarven singles out there that need their help and want their help finding a mate.
It is certainly established that even good deities in Golarion can possess character flaws. I'm looking at you, Erastil and Cayden Cailean. However I highly doubt that homophobia (in the sense of being discriminatory against, rather than an irrational fear of) is considered on par with grumpiness, or the tendency to overindulge, around the Paizo offices.
LMAO being a confirmed bachelor does not make you gay. The two are unrelated. some gays may be confirmed bachelors--but that doesnt mean some confirmed bachelors just dont enjoy the single life
And some of us have done our duty by the species & have now washed our hands of the entire mess.
"Give me my shield & my axe brothers, go home to your wives & children. I will take the long watch."
I think it's probably very likely that the developers were as ignorant as most of us about the "good olden days" definition of a "confirmed bachelor" being a homosexual (I am a student of language myself and I didn't even know it), and were using the modern, very common and widely understood definition of a simple, unmarried man.
That very much likely the case, this is really a non-issue.
I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....I think perhaps you are taking the root of the word too literally. In contemporary American English, the term refers not just to fear of homosexuality, but to discrimination against and hatred of people with same-sex attractions. Essentially, misogyny : women or racism : African-Americans, etc. as homophobia : LGBT folks.
From Google definitions:
an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
From Merriam-Webster:
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
I actually looked this up to verify what I thought. Both dictionaries use the term irrational in the definitions.
I am a man who deals with chronic pain every day. Doctors say they can relieve my pain with pain killing injections. I however have a PHOBIA of needles. My logical knowledgeable educated brain knows that the medicine will help. However, my irrational psyche will not let you get near me with a needle.
Phobias are weird things. Trust me I know.
LMAO being a confirmed bachelor does not make you gay. the two are unrelated. some gays may be confirmed bachelors--but that doesnt mean some confirmed bachelors just dont enjoy the single lifeStill...that Cillian Murphy... Mm!
He's a peaky blinder, he is.
Given that Bolka is neutral good, her being homophobic seems incongruous.You that work with paizo surely know more about the gods of golarion than me, but I want to mention that people (in this case gods) can be incongruous. Bolka being NG can still have her blak spots.
Yes, but generally the flaws in good deities are fairly minor, comparatively speaking -- none of them are in favor of torturing the innocent, for example. Given that Paizo has a large number of LGBT employees, I think that as a company we tend to take the idea of forbidding people loving relationships and marriage based on genders of the partners to be a pretty significant flaw. I could see us maybe having it be a flaw in a neutral deity, but it's hard to imagine we'd publish it for a good deity. It'd be like having a good deity that objected to people of Garundi descent being allowed to marry -- too evil for a good deity.
I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....I think perhaps you are taking the root of the word too literally. In contemporary American English, the term refers not just to fear of homosexuality, but to discrimination against and hatred of people with same-sex attractions. Essentially, misogyny : women or racism : African-Americans, etc. as homophobia : LGBT folks.
From Google definitions:
an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
From Merriam-Webster:
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
I actually looked this up to verify what I thought. Both dictionaries use the term irrational in the definitions.
I am a man who deals with chronic pain every day. Doctors say they can relieve my pain with pain killing injections. I however have a PHOBIA of needles. My logical knowledgeable educated brain knows that the medicine will help. However, my irrational psyche will not let you get near me with a needle.
Phobias are weird things. Trust me I know.
I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or not, so I'll proceed from the assumption that you're just unaware of American cultural politics. Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
Homophobia, as used in contemporary American society, does not just refer to fear. It also refers to hatred and mistreatment of gay or bi people. It's a term that has a much broader cultural meaning than something like agoraphobia, which is simply a phobia and not a form of discrimination and persecution directed at other human beings.
Being afraid of needles is not a good analogue. Regardless of how afraid you are, a needle isn't a human being that your fear and aversion can drive you to attempt to injure or persecute. There's no needle equivalent of Matthew Shepard.
I can't see our products treating something that is purely a phobia, in the DSM IV sense, as evil. Hatred of and discrimination toward a class of people based on their love for and attraction to other adults of the same gender, however, is a different matter entirely.
I personally believe good people don't want to prevent other people from being in loving relationships because of their gender. And I'm pretty sure our developers likewise would not make a good deity of marriage homophobic.Phobias are irrational fears. Good people have irrational fears, where logic and goodness don't live.....I think perhaps you are taking the root of the word too literally. In contemporary American English, the term refers not just to fear of homosexuality, but to discrimination against and hatred of people with same-sex attractions. Essentially, misogyny : women or racism : African-Americans, etc. as homophobia : LGBT folks.
From Google definitions:
an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
From Merriam-Webster:
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
I actually looked this up to verify what I thought. Both dictionaries use the term irrational in the definitions.
I am a man who deals with chronic pain every day. Doctors say they can relieve my pain with pain killing injections. I however have a PHOBIA of needles. My logical knowledgeable educated brain knows that the medicine will help. However, my irrational psyche will not let you get near me with a needle.
Phobias are weird things. Trust me I know.
I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or not, so I'll proceed from the assumption that you're just unaware of American cultural politics. Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
Homophobia, as used in contemporary American society, does not just refer to fear. It also refers to hatred and mistreatment of gay or bi people. It's a term that has a much broader cultural meaning than something like agoraphobia, which is simply a phobia and not a form of discrimination and persecution directed at other human beings.
Being afraid of needles is not...
I understand its usage in contemporary American society. The point I was evidently not making effectively is that it is in part irrational. It is hard to categorize someone as not good based on their irrational fears.
I understand its usage in contemporary American society. The point I was evidently not making effectively is that it is in part irrational. It is hard to categorize someone as not good based on their irrational fears.
I dunno. Some people seem to have completely rationalized the fact that they simply hate it, and will discriminate against it. If it was an irrational fear, they'd run the other way down the street rather than start shouting insults.
If the description read "is concerned that the population could die out if every male does not take a female partner", then you could make the argument for an irrational fear (assuming the population wasn't actually in such danger - if it were then it'd be a quite rational fear).
If they dislike it, disagree with it, or even worse then it's quite simply a bigoted view and being categorized as "not good" fits like a glove.
In the majority of homophobe (from the more common usage) cases, it's not an actual phobia at all. If you want to stick to dictionary terms though, then the thread question should probably be rephrased "Is the dwarven goddess of marriage a bigot?" (although we've now heard the answer to both is almost certainly 'no')