|
Hello all.
Recently notice the Bludgeoner feat, and saw the line about rogues being able to do nonlethal sneak attack damage. Recalling the Skulking Slayer archetype for rogues, I thought this might be an excellent chance to make a damage rogue*. What I have so far is
Str18 (15+2Race+1Level)
Dex16
Con14
Wis12
Cha7
Feats:
L1Bludgeoner
L3Enforcer
L5Sap Master
Talents:
L2 Combat Trick (Power Attack)
L3 Ninja Trick [Combat Trick(Sap Adept)]
Class Abilities:
Sneak Attack +3d6
Underhanded Maneuvers
Pass for Human
Evasion
Bold Strike
Scout's Charge
AC=17 (+4 Armor, +3 Dex)
Saves
Will+4
Fort+5
Ref+9
HP=43
Gear:
Rogue's Kit
Lamellar Leather
MWK Tetsubo
Sling (with 20 rocks)
Skills
Perception+9
Stealth+9
Acrobatics+9
Intimidate+8
Bluff+6
Diplomacy+6
UMD+6
Alternate Racial Traits
Sacred Tattoo
Traits
Fate's Favored
Heirloom Weapon (Tetsubo)
Attacks
MWK Tetsubo +7 (1d10+9) x4 crit
Sling +7 (1d3+4) 50ft. range, x2 crit
Non-Lethal Sneak Attack 3d8+6 (6d8+12 v. Flat-footed foes)
Not sure where to go from here though. Any advice on feats/dips/other to do after level 5? Is enforcer worth it? Thanks in advance:)
*Yes, I am aware of the saying "Rogues can't do damage" and "Bard>Any type of Rogue", but I have seen how effective a skulking slayer scout can be.
|
Assuming you mean level 4 talent, not level 3? I was going to post that rule about a Ninja not being able to pick a Rogue Talent with the same name as a Ninja Trick, but it doesn't appear that restriction works the other way... Meaning a Rogue can pick a Ninja Trick with the same name as a Rogue Talent?
Why Tetsubo as your weapon?
I do like this build though.
|
Not a bad build.
Just shooting from the hip here but, I think that staying with Rogue levels may be the best idea after 5.
Since you have already invested so many resources into getting that doubled sneak attack dice vs. flat footed foes it is probably a good idea to stack as many sneak attack dice as possible into the build.
Also, you can grab cleave at level 7, surprise follow through as a rogue talent at level 8 and that would synergize nicely with the skirmisher ability (move 10 ft, sneak attack 1st foe and cleave sneak attack into the second although the second would just be a "regular" sneak attack since it denies their dex bonus but doesn't make them flat footed)
Lastly I'd go with an Earthbreaker over the Tetsubo, you only have a x3 crit but the 2d6 damage is about a point (or two?) higher than the 1d10 tetsubo and crits don't multiply the sneak damage anyway.
|
|
Ah, sorry about the talent. Yeah, that is supposed to be level 4. But you can take ninja tricks with the same name as rogue talents RAW.Assuming you mean level 4 talent, not level 3? I was going to post that rule about a Ninja not being able to pick a Rogue Talent with the same name as a Ninja Trick, but it doesn't appear that restriction works the other way... Meaning a Rogue can pick a Ninja Trick with the same name as a Rogue Talent?
Why Tetsubo as your weapon?
I do like this build though.
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.As for tetsubo, It is a d10 2h weapon that can do bludgeoning damage (and with the Bludgeoner feat, non-lethal damage), and it has a x4 critical. Its one of my personal favorite weapons.
Not a bad build.
Just shooting from the hip here but, I think that staying with Rogue levels may be the best idea after 5.
Since you have already invested so many resources into getting that doubled sneak attack dice vs. flat footed foes it is probably a good idea to stack as many sneak attack dice as possible into the build.Also, you can grab cleave at level 7, surprise follow through as a rogue talent at level 8 and that would synergize nicely with the skirmisher ability (move 10 ft, sneak attack 1st foe and cleave sneak attack into the second although the second would just be a "regular" sneak attack since it denies their dex bonus but doesn't make them flat footed)
Lastly I'd go with an Earthbreaker over the Tetsubo, you only have a x3 crit but the 2d6 damage is about a point (or two?) higher than the 1d10 tetsubo and crits don't multiply the sneak damage anyway.
Thanks for the advice, but the earthbreaker gives me only a point or 2 of damage, and I wind up with my still only 5%-10% crit chance losing out on the power attack+str bonus. I'd prefer to stick with it. Cleave seems like a nice idea for this, thanks. EDIT:Also, if I only multiclass 1 level, I don't actually miss out on any sneak attack dice, as in PFS, you go up to 12, so 11 levels nets me full SA.
As a side note, does anyone think the minor/major magic talents, and arcane strike feat, would be worth it? I know I'd want vanish major magic, but I'm not so sure if arcane strike's +2-3 damage/swing is quite worth it.
|
|
Another note, would an alchemist dip be worth it a later levels? I'm thinking maybe because I could get a +4 Strength from a mutagen (who needs Int in combat anyway :p) and I could get shield extracts/wands to help with my pitiful defense. But I'm not sure how much this would help, since my SA would be delayed by a level, I would lose out on a point of BAB, and I would delay getting the swift action bluff checks, and SA after I move 10 feet. Any input?
|
|
A barbarian level dip nets you that +4 STR bonus and a point of BAB. also works well flavour wise.
Now, I must say you've inspired me. I might play around this a bit myself!
Yeah, barbarian was my first thought too. But it would need extra rage feat, and IMO there are better feats. Alchemist on the other hand, can prepare as many mutagens as he has time to each day, but the previous ones become inactive. It fits with my particular rogue's flavor a bit better too. Still, hope you have fun with your build.
|
|
Don't. You suffer enough with medium BAB, don't take another hit to it.
As for shield, get an ioun stone... and charge it via wand (either roll enough UMDs to put it in out of combat, or get another character to do it each time).
Personally, for combat rogues looking to use enforcer it's shame not to go thug archetype... pick up the talent for intimidating prowess at 6th and you should be fairly good.
-James
noted. It is a shame not to be a thug, but it is hard for me to give up the d8 sneak attack. You make a good point about BaB, and I guess my UMD will be getting fairly high anyway. Barbarian it is I guess. Looking at Gore Fiend feat, it seems to help with the rage rounds, along with extra rage feat. I guess this would be something like
L2Power Attack
L3Enforcer
L4Sap Adept
L5Sap Master
L7Extra Rage
L9Gore Fiend
L10Arcane Strike
L11Imp. Crit (Tetsubo)
Talents
L2Combat Trick
L4Ninja Trick (combat trick)
L6Offensive Defense (just noticed this one)
L8Minor Magic
L10Feat
L12Crippling Strike (also just noticed)
I like it, and second starting with barbarian 1. The saving throw bonuses alone are amazing, and the extra hit points and weapon proficiency es will be handy as well.
The nonlethal rogue is pretty well known, its not that common because it has one critical flaw. It just doesn't work right half the time. Immune to non lethal is more common than you would think. Also immune to sneak attack is always a problem.
But since you are starting with barbarian, you will be effective enough starting out. Your BAB early on (when it matters more) will be good/decent enough to get the job done too.
|
|
The nonlethal rogue is pretty well known, its not that common because it has one critical flaw. It just doesn't work right half the time. Immune to non lethal is more common than you would think. Also immune to sneak attack is always a problem.
But since you are starting with barbarian, you will be effective enough starting out. Your BAB early on (when it matters more) will be good/decent enough to get the job done too.
Yeah SA and nonlethal immunities are relatively common, but still with nonlethal immunity I still should do 3d8 SA, and with SA immunity I should still be doing 1d10+9 (12 when raging). I'd start out with the barbarian level, but I really want to try to get sap master at level 5, so at 6th level I think is when I'll go for it.
Have you considered a 3 to 7 levels in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype of Advanced Players Guide? Besides the obvious advantages in BAB, FORT saves, extra feats, and HP there are some things that would go well with your Skulking Slayer / Scout.
At level 3 the two handed fighter can add double his STR bonus on any single attack action, including charge attacks. If you go to level 7 he can add double his STR bonus to damage on every strike in a full attack after the first.
It looks like you will be doing a fair ammount of charging around the battlefield, this could be a rather large boost in damage, depending on how high your STR gets. With the extra feats you could go into things like Furious Focus, Dodge, and Mobility which will increase your hit rate as well as make it far harder to hit you with AoOs as you charge from foe to foe.
....
If your not dead set on the traits you picked, you might consider the "killer" trait. Every time you Crit you will be adding the crit multiplier of your weapon to it's damage. So +4 to damage. Its a 20 only crit weapon so not that great, but later you could get the Improved Critical feat and make it a 19-20x4+4. That is a little scarier. Also Half Orcs can add 1/3 to crit confirmation rolls when using Sneak Attack as a Favored Class bonus.
....
Also, you are giving up orc ferocity for sacred tattoo. You migh consider giving up intimidating for the shaman's apprentice racial trait. It will give you Endurance for free and you can later take the Die Hard feat to improve your survivability. Toughness and the Resiliency Rogue Talent are also good for survivability.
|
|
Have you considered a 3 to 7 levels in the Two-Handed Fighter archetype of Advanced Players Guide? Besides the obvious advantages in BAB, FORT saves, extra feats, and HP there are some things that would go well with your Skulking Slayer / Scout.
At level 3 the two handed fighter can add double his STR bonus on any single attack action, including charge attacks. If you go to level 7 he can add double his STR bonus to damage on every strike in a full attack after the first.
It looks like you will be doing a fair ammount of charging around the battlefield, this could be a rather large boost in damage, depending on how high your STR gets. With the extra feats you could go into things like Furious Focus, Dodge, and Mobility which will increase your hit rate as well as make it far harder to hit you with AoOs as you charge from foe to foe.
....
If your not dead set on the traits you picked, you might consider the "killer" trait. Every time you Crit you will be adding the crit multiplier of your weapon to it's damage. So +4 to damage. Its a 20 only crit weapon so not that great, but later you could get the Improved Critical feat and make it a 19-20x4+4. That is a little scarier. Also Half Orcs can add 1/3 to crit confirmation rolls when using Sneak Attack as a Favored Class bonus.
....
Also, you are giving up orc ferocity for sacred tattoo. You migh consider giving up intimidating for the shaman's apprentice racial trait. It will give you Endurance for free and you can later take the Die Hard feat to improve your survivability. Toughness and the Resiliency Rogue Talent are also good for survivability.
Ah, forgot about the 2h fighter. Not sure, I get better damage on average (in a single attack), but I lose out on 2d8+4 potential damage. Then again, this whole thing is so situational, I think I might prefer this to barbarian. Proficiency in heavy armor I guess is pretty nice (who needs evasion), and I also get all martial weapons (in case there is a really cool boon).
As to traits, I'm not completely sold on Fate's Favored, but Killer is really situational, and a rather low damage buff. I think that reactionary would be better than both traits, as it is half of a feat that works all the time. +4 situational damage is a bit low to me.
The Half-Orc FCB is tempting, but I don't think it is worth the loss of 9HP for a +3 to confirmation rolls. Of course, now that my BaB will go up, I will be able to invest in critical focus instead. The Shaman's Apprentice trait does seem worth it (as diehard is amazing) and I think I'm going to dump enforcer and intimidate ranks entirely, in exchange for city raised trait and ranks in knowledge local (trying to help with a bit of skill-monkeying and intimidate is a bit less useful in PFS). All in all, great advice. Thanks.
an alchemist dip would not be a bad idea... take vivisectionist and you won't lose any SA dice at all- just take 4 levels of it and you'll have the exact same BAB as if you were leveling straight rogue, plus 2 discoveries (some of which are pretty awesome).
|
|
It's essentially a +1 dam/die. Which is nice, but I like the status effects more personally.
I also tend to like the rogue talent that denies a victim of sneak attack AOOs for a round.
Both of these tend to do more than just damage, and can be significantly felt by others.
-James
Yeah, I get your point about status inflictions. I hadn't though much about slow reactions talent, but looking at it, I believe it would mean the next round I could dirty trick without them AoOing me (please, correct me if I'm wrong, I just think it would last until the end of my turn), and then I could blast out a bunch of different de-buffs (blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, sickend) and those I think would be ultimately more effective than just shaken+sickened (blinded is a personal favorite). Thanks for the idea.
|
|
an alchemist dip would not be a bad idea... take vivisectionist and you won't lose any SA dice at all- just take 4 levels of it and you'll have the exact same BAB as if you were leveling straight rogue, plus 2 discoveries (some of which are pretty awesome).
That was my first thought to. Too bad vivisectionist is illegal in society.
@XmorsX:That is impressive. I hadn't been aware of strong impression rogue talent, it certainly seems nice for an intimidate character like this. I think I may switch back to going with enforcer if I can get that for free. Where does the rogue hide the earthbreaker with underhanded though? I generally prefer to have a reasonable way to conceal a weapon when I decide to use the Slight of Hand skill to conceal a weapon, especially in PFS, so I can explain it in PFS. Still, that certainly gives some ideas, Thanks.
That was my first thought to. Too bad vivisectionist is illegal in society.
sorry, i had no idea :(