Quick Question for Devs: Engineering

[Proxima Sin]

Settlements happen after EE starts and ways to break settlements come with or after that, we already know.

Talking about kits and harvesting ops I had an idea about setting up a low-cost, short term, pointy wood fence to help fortify and protect the operation (or other things you do out in the open that aren't permanent like settlements or POIs) from NPC or PC attacks. Maybe even a transportable anti-personnel machine (ballista?) for the engineer to operate in node defense.

Are there currently plans to start EE with any skills and items to create related to that area?

[Nihimon]

I really like the idea of very temporary fortifications along these lines. I could see them also granting a sense of ownership over an otherwise unclaimed territory, so that attacking characters who attempt to breach them would not cause (as much of?) an Alignment or Reputation hit. I also think they would work nicely with Challenge Mechanic - To drive off other characters, by granting us the "right" to challenge others to leave the area, again without taking (as much of?) an Alignment or Reputation hit.

I'm also very curious to know what the devs or Ryan thinks of this. Thanks for breaking this out, Proxima Sin :)

[Proxima Sin]

You know I'm just an unpaid dev full of brilliant ideas. I'm totally putting 18 months of it down on my resume though.

[Shane Gifford]

I like the idea of temporary fortifications as a specialization within a larger Engineering tree. This could include everything from buildings to siege engines to vehicles (such as wagons) and maybe even Resource Kits for mothernodes. Maybe also traps!

[Proxima Sin]

Building vehicles like wagons seems under the umbrella of crafting to me, as well as kits in a different branch.

What I refer to as "Engineering" is the MMO version dealing with turrets, walls, siege equipment, etc. Basically stuff meant to temporarily control an area for tactical advantage or destroy enemy area protections. Traps definitely qualify there.

Are PFO rogues/rangers very trappy- would they need access to that part of engineering without a bulk of other pre-reqs they'll never use?.

[Lord of Elder Days]

Engineer has been around as one of the less common rouge builds for some time. I can see them really coming into their own during large scale battles. I would imagine both sides would use them to build temporary defenses and traps while trying to destroy those of the enemy. Sieges would be an especially useful place for engineers.

P.S. It is a well known fact that dwarves make the best engineers.

[Diella]

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

[Shane Gifford]

I saw Engineering as being a form of Crafting, although some specializations would craft not items but in-world structures. Really though, it's not so different; you expend resources, take some amount of time, and some finished product comes out the other end. The difference would be that the thing you craft is created in the game world instead of an inventory.

Neither rogues nor rangers in Pathfinder are trap heavy; without adding in archetypes, rogues have only a few rogue talents that assist in being a trapper, and rangers have nothing without taking the 'trapper' archetype. So I doubt traps will be required for the 'core class' advancement of either.

I do like engineers playing a key role in massive-scale battles by creating fortifications and shaping the battlefield. It would also open up a couple 'sapper' specializations focused on breaking these structures: could have one for barbarian, one for alchemist (concocting explosives), one for different blast-oriented mages, and so on.

[Nihimon]

Diella wrote:

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

Of course, the Elves taught the Dwarves everything they know about crafting...

[Diella]

Ah but the elves learned from the gnomes so it always come full circle back to the gnomes.

[Lifedragn]

Diella wrote:

Ah but the elves learned from the gnomes so it always come full circle back to the gnomes.

If you have never heard of Dragonstar, you should check out that setting story. It all starts on a planet where all sentient life but gnomes manage to go extinct. Left to their own devices, gnomish civilization explodes with innovation and technology...

[DeciusBrutus]

Nihimon wrote:

Diella wrote:

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

Of course, the Elves taught the Dwarves everything they know about crafting...

You elves may have taught the dwarves everything you know, but you certainly didn't teach them everything they know.

[Nihimon]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Nihimon wrote:

Diella wrote:

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

Of course, the Elves taught the Dwarves everything they know about crafting...

You elves may have taught the dwarves everything you know, but you certainly didn't teach them everything they know.

My apologies for the unclear antecedent... Allow me to restate it.

All that the Dwarves know was taught to them by Elves.

[Shane Gifford]

And the aboleths were there before everyone, so I think they win. :P

[Lam]

Don't mess with gnomes! When they arrive, some debts will be settled.

[Ryan Dancey]

Proxima Sin wrote:

Talking about kits and harvesting ops I had an idea about setting up a low-cost, short term, pointy wood fence to help fortify and protect the operation (or other things you do out in the open that aren't permanent like settlements or POIs) from NPC or PC attacks.

This is not a bad idea, at least in the long term. When we get a more formalized Crowdforging system built, be sure you bring it up again.

[Proxima Sin]

Well I am an innovator in the field of pointy sticks.

[Calis]

Honestly starting off making temporary defense with pointy sticks is too much. Have you considered starting of with fruit or vegetables, perhaps a pineapple field? Or some green beans lining the perimeter of your enclosure. People always have jump straight to pointy sticks.

[Xeen]

Proxima Sin wrote:

Well I am an innovator in the field of pointy sticks.

hmmm

[Hardin Steele]

Calis wrote:

Honestly starting off making temporary defense with pointy sticks is too much. Have you considered starting of with fruit or vegetables, perhaps a pineapple field? Or some green beans lining the perimeter of your enclosure. People always have jump straight to pointy sticks.

Yes. The arms race has to start somewhere. Hard to say how far along we might be with pointy sticks, but it's a start!

[Lam]

[coc] Engineering is a big word, like painting, maybe even like art. TO call it a single craft is not period appropriate, if there is a concept of period.

Going historical, engineering developed in may domains as rules of thumb. Within military organization engineers were about sappers. Bridge builders were another craft. and that is only SI (civil engineering)! Look at others: Weapon smith; Alchemy vs pot chemistry vs chemical engineering; ship building, mechanical (consider mill forms and constructs [wait for the gnomes])), In modern vernacular, there are elements of engineering in all of these.

These modern engineering forms were varied crafts or professions in the modeled period. Rules of thumb and MAGIC replace engineering and TECHNOLOGY.
[/coc]

[Shane Gifford]

I used engineering as a sort of "catch-all" group which would contain many little subgroups. There's probably a better word for it.

[Proxima Sin]

I don't think applying the connotations of historical or contemporary fields of engineering is appropriate to the game because... magic.

In two games I've spent a lot of time in, Asheron's Call 2 and Guild Wars 2, the MMO trope of engineering is pretty solidly established as I explained previously and still fits with what's been explained for PFO.

[Keovar]

From PFRPG:

Quote:

_Skills_
Knowledge (Int)
You are educated in a field of study and can answer both simple and complex questions. Like the Craft, Perform, and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of different specialties.
- Engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
\ Identify dangerous construction
\ Determine a structure's style or age
\ Determine a structure's weakness

Craft (Int)
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks. The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
Special: A gnome gets a +2 bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of her choice.

Profession (Wis)
You are skilled at a specific job. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
Special: A gnome gets a +2 bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of her choice.

Disable Device (Dex)
You are skilled at disarming traps and opening locks. In addition, this skill lets you sabotage simple mechanical devices, such as catapults, wagon wheels, and doors.

_Feat_
Siege Engineer (Combat)
You are proficient with all siege weaponry.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (engineering) 5 ranks or Profession (siege engineer) 5 ranks, proficiency with one siege engine.
Benefit: You are considered to be proficient with all siege weapons. Also, when you are crew lead for a siege engine, you do not generate mishaps on the roll of a natural 1.
Normal: Each siege engine is an exotic weapon.

That's the stuff from the Pathfinder RPG that I think could be relevant, if we take engineering to be generalized to an understanding of the applied physics of structures and mechanical devices. Whereas PFRPG cut the caoncept of "synergy bonuses" for skills that could play into one another, but the concept could be reintroduced for PFO such that any or all of the above provide a small edge to the others. Also, it's curious that the Siege Engineer feat mentions "siege engineer" as one of the profession types, but the listing of example professions neglected to include it.

Some interesting examples of engineering with pre-industrial tech:
Treadwheel Crane
Moving Megaliths

[Lam]

The question is does the game take engineering for classical terms meaing military engines and by magic make it 20th century engineering with a solid math, process and design basis applying to civil, chemical, aeronautical, electronic, architectural, mechanical, (later bilmedical, ...)?

Or is engineer the concept after apprentice, journeyman, master, 'engineer' where the master works beyond results of thumb to a principle (forces, gravity, momentum, energy, potential energy, force normal, inertia, friction, angular momentum, spring constants, density, PVW, ..., and things I am not young enough to remember from 4-5 decades ago). In rel most of these did not happen until after 18th century, most of them in 19th century, but 20th century to start to bring them together as one concept.

Let us just say, system engineering, software architecture, (ok) software (itself), condenseted matter, plasma, semiconductors are off the list.

lam

[Being]

Proxima Sin wrote:

...a low-cost, short term, pointy wood fence to help fortify and protect the operation (or other things you do out in the open that aren't permanent like settlements or POIs) from NPC or PC attacks...

...are called breastworks, used since before Henry at Agincourt and after Longstreet at Second Bull Run.

[Hardin Steele]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Proxima Sin wrote:

Talking about kits and harvesting ops I had an idea about setting up a low-cost, short term, pointy wood fence to help fortify and protect the operation (or other things you do out in the open that aren't permanent like settlements or POIs) from NPC or PC attacks.

This is not a bad idea, at least in the long term. When we get a more formalized Crowdforging system built, be sure you bring it up again.

So I was looking at some engineering threads and chose to reanimate this thread since Ryan said, "Bring it up again!"

Check Ideascale for "Engineering Skills".

[Giorgo]

As some one interested in creating an engineering focused SCC, I would appreciate if any Alpha players can bring this up the next time Alpha servers are up. :)

[Giorgo]

Proxima Sin wrote:

Talking about kits and harvesting ops I had an idea about setting up a low-cost, short term, pointy wood fence to help fortify and protect the operation (or other things you do out in the open that aren't permanent like settlements or POIs) from NPC or PC attacks.

Sounds like Base Camps and Smallholdings where inspired by Proxima Sin? :)

Where has she been lately? There are a lot more Engineering related ideas she can recommend to get implemented. Hint, Hint...

[Summersnow]

Diella wrote:

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

If you consider something that has better then even odds of blowing up in your face when you try to use it as "the best of everything" why then yes, gnomes make the best of everything.

[Diella]

Summersnow wrote:

Diella wrote:

well if you talk to any dwarves they believe they make the best anything, now this is false since it well know Gnomes make the best everything. :D

If you consider something that has better then even odds of blowing up in your face when you try to use it as "the best of everything" why then yes, gnomes make the best of everything.

Wipes some soot off her nose.

"Well there is that but things that go boom are always fun, Right.. That what my Grandda always told me.

[Master of Shadows]

In the ancient past of my campaign world, Gnomes were an enslaved race who used their superior understanding of their masters technology to turn it against them. Then out of spite for a world that allowed them to be enslaved, they went on a mad rampage ravishing the world with clockwork titans until the Elves were forced to commit genocide from dragon back. Forever wiping gnomes from existence lest their madness once again ravage the world.
Gnomish ruins and ancient clockworks are some of the most feared things an adventurer can encounter.

[Traianus Decius Aureus]

I hope that Engineering will eventually encompass the construction of siege weapons, siege equipment, fortifications and possibly civilian architecture.

Interestingly, classical engineers were expected to be architects, public works engineers, and siege engineers. Vitruvius' treatise on architecture was 10 books in length, the tenth of which is devoted to the design and construction of siege weapons/engines. In the early Renaissance, Alberti's work on architecture began with how to properly design and construct fortifications for a city.

I would be very disappointed if engineers in PFO did not have those things under their purview.

[Hardin Steele]

Some of Leonardo DaVinci's most profitable work in his life was being a military engineer for Cesare Borgia, but is best known for his contributions to art and science.

[Giorgo]

Bookmarked for inclusion in the soon to be updated EE FAQ thread; and for new people to add new insight to the topic on hand. :)

Also, my main is going to focus on Engineering, and Proxima's Sin pointy stick ideas are worth keeping tabs on. (Grin)