Retraining question answered


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I know this has come up peripherally in multiple threads, so I thought I'd post it here for whoever's interested.

You CAN retrain into a feat that you would not have qualified for at the time you took the feat you're dropping.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Good to know.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nefreet wrote:
Good to know.

And Crazy Powerful!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Geez, any character that wants Power Attack, Weapon Focus, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level but doesn't have the BAB for it can retrain at level 2 to get it. I'm sure some builds will be drooling at that.

Hell, that means a Zen Archer no longer needs to wait until 3rd level to get Deadly Aim.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Nefreet wrote:
Geez, any character that wants Power Attack, Weapon Focus, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level but doesn't have the BAB for it can retrain at level 2 to get it. I'm sure some builds will be drooling at that.

Sure, if they think the difference is worth 5 PP (which at 2nd level may well leave them with zero).

4/5

Starglim wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Geez, any character that wants Power Attack, Weapon Focus, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level but doesn't have the BAB for it can retrain at level 2 to get it. I'm sure some builds will be drooling at that.
Sure, if they think the difference is worth 5 PP (which at 2nd level may well leave them with zero).

For a lot of 3/4 BAB classes who don't get the right bonus feats, that's not only "yes," but "Oh heck yeah!" It's not that you're getting the damage boost from PA at first level, it means you're not delaying things like Improved Sunder till 5th, halfway through your career. It makes getting to the interesting part of feat chains at a point in your career where they're still interesting and giving you enough time to actually play what you're building towards.

Dark Archive 4/5

If you are 3/4 BaB improved sunder is probably not the way to go anyway, the only real benefit it gives is if you require multiple feats that you need to take early but cannot due to requiring a +1 BaB or a caster level you do not have until too late to normally take it (things like arcane armor training which normally requires level 5, but can now be taken at level 4 using your level 3 feat), I am not entirely convinced that it will make a significant difference.

5/5 *

I think the PP cost in PFS will make it so it's not abused. Fighters still do it better.

4/5

Caderyn wrote:
If you are 3/4 BaB improved sunder is probably not the way to go anyway, the only real benefit it gives is if you require multiple feats that you need to take early but cannot due to requiring a +1 BaB or a caster level you do not have until too late to normally take it (things like arcane armor training which normally requires level 5, but can now be taken at level 4 using your level 3 feat), I am not entirely convinced that it will make a significant difference.

Sunder was just the first thing to come to mind. Unless you're doing archery or Two Weapon Fighting, there aren't a lot of great combat feats at first level for a character with BAB 0. For example, my inquisitor ended up taking Intimidating Prowess at level 1 because he didn't have any options to improve his actual combat abilities, and the earliest he could get Dazzling Display was level 5, pushing Power Attack to level 7. Doing 1d10+7 damage at level 3 or 4 is fine, but he really needed PA to be useful in the 5-6 combats. And by level 5 the general usefulness of Dazzling Display is waning: Now that I have the feat, about the only time it is useful is when someone is casting an AoE that requires a save (and that is rare enough that I can just cast Blistering Invective instead.) But I would have used it all the time at level 3 when a 10% higher miss chance might mean 25-50% fewer hits landing.

Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: All those are feats that can be important to getting a build rolling. Putting them off until level 3 means a lot of builds don't even start doing what they're intending to do until level 5. (And I don't know why a 3/4 BAB class wouldn't be a sunder specialist, aside from the fact that they currently can't even try without a reach weapon before 5th level.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

My roommate came up with this idea:

Step 1:
Level a Magus up to 10th and learn Dimension Door.

Step 2:
Spend 10 Prestige and retrain 2 feats to get Dimensional Agility and Dimensional Assault.

Step 3:
Take Dimensional Dervish as your 11th level feat.

Optional:
If you like tripping, bull rushing, disarming, or repositioning you could spend 5 Prestige at level 12 to retrain a feat and replace it with Dimensional Maneuvers.

Alternatively, if you have Prestige to burn and you want to get more games out of it, you could instead spend 15 Prestige at level 10 to retrain the first 3 feats.

Normally a Magus would not have the ability to take the first feat until 11th, the second feat until 13th, the third until 15th, and the last until 17th level.

Anyone else come up with anything?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

An eldritch knight could do this a hair quicker, gaining access to DDoor at 9th level (taking the first in the chain as his 9th-level feat) and immediately retrain into the entire feat chain (or as much as he's willing to shell out PP for).

I am now seriously considering this.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Ooooh. Eldritch Knight. Nice.

Actually, looking at it again now I think he meant Dimensional Savant instead of Dimensional Maneuvers.

I had completely overlooked Dimensional Agility as a regular feat. For a Magus, it's amazing on its own, allowing you to Spell Combat with Dimension Door. I think that's awesome in and of itself.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Nefreet wrote:
Oh, actually, looking at it again now I think he meant Dimensional Savant instead of Dimensional Maneuvers.

Hrm, an early-entry EK could hit the BAB +9 prereq at 10th and then retrain into Savant, for a minimum of 6 scenarios of dimension-hopping, self-flanking full-attacks! :D

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Be sure to enchant your Armor Spikes with Menacing!

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I wonder if there's room in the build for Precise Strike and/or Outflank?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Okay, so if you went the early-entry EK route, and wanted to go all the way to self-flanking, it would be pretty costly:

You get to keep your first-level feat.
You get to keep your fighter bonus feat at 1st and both of your EK bonus feats.

Your 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th-level feats all go to this chain (though self-flanking has to wait until 10th), three of them via retraining.

So at 10th, you've spent 15PP and, aside from this one trick, have two combat feats and one general feat for your character.

Yet I'm still tempted, because of the awesome visual. :D

Maybe the other three feats would be Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike and Precise Strike? Hmmm....

5/5 *

You can also do this at 9th with a Horizon Walker now, Ranger 6/HW 3 and actually retrain into Savant at 9th. Or Fighter 6/HW 3. Or any other full BAB class.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Ninja 6/Horizon Walker 3

3 + Wis Mod/Day you can Dimension Door your way around the battlefield and make full attacks, never have to worry about tumbling or positioning again! Of course you have to wait until 11th level to flank with yourself with Dimensional Savant.

I was thinking you could be a Tiefling and you have yourself Nightcrawler for 9-18 games depending on what track you play.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Totally forgot about Horizon Walker! That's awesome! :D

If you go Fighter, you could even have some feats!

5/5 *

Gunslinger 5/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 3?

You can Dervish, and go shooting into rooms, around corners, around cover, around allies, then end up back in safe range.

Gunslinger 5 for Dex to damage. Fighter level for extra feat. I guess all you really need is Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim...

Plus, Wisdom synergy? Goign HW over EK means you don't need to be a specific race, you you could be one of the Heritages with +Dex and +Wis.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

CRobledo wrote:

Gunslinger 5/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 3?

You can Dervish, and go shooting into rooms, around corners, around cover, around allies, then end up back in safe range.

Gunslinger 5 for Dex to damage. Fighter level for extra feat. I guess all you really need is Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim...

Zen Archer 6? Inquisitor 5/Fighter 1?

Quote:
Plus, Wisdom synergy? Goign HW over EK means you don't need to be a specific race, you you could be one of the Heritages with +Dex and +Wis.

Actually, there's one race-agnostic entry method into EK, by being a scrying-specialist wizard.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

CRobledo wrote:

Gunslinger 5/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 3?

You can Dervish, and go shooting into rooms, around corners, around cover, around allies, then end up back in safe range.

Gunslinger 5 for Dex to damage. Fighter level for extra feat. I guess all you really need is Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim...

Plus, Wisdom synergy? Goign HW over EK means you don't need to be a specific race, you you could be one of the Heritages with +Dex and +Wis.

I want this so hard now. It's just a matter of finding the feats.

5/5 *

Well, you don't need Dimensional Savant for this one, only Dervish, so you could do Human for the feat.

Gunslinger 5 (musket master)/Fighter 1/HW3

(1) Rapid Reload (musket)
(H) Rapid Shot
(3) Deadly Aim
(5) Dimensional Agility (RETRAINED AT 9)
(6 - FBF) <whatever you want> (maybe precise shot or vital strike?)
(7) Dimensional Assault (RETRAINED AT 9)
(9) Dimensional Dervish

5/5

My 11th level EK loves the dimensional shtick. Helped take out Krune (or more accurately, helped her avoid dying by Krune's hands).

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

RainyDayNinja wrote:
CRobledo wrote:

Gunslinger 5/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 3?

You can Dervish, and go shooting into rooms, around corners, around cover, around allies, then end up back in safe range.

Gunslinger 5 for Dex to damage. Fighter level for extra feat. I guess all you really need is Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim...

Plus, Wisdom synergy? Goign HW over EK means you don't need to be a specific race, you you could be one of the Heritages with +Dex and +Wis.

I want this so hard now. It's just a matter of finding the feats.

For me it's a matter of finding the persona... I'm picturing a sword, possibly two-handed, definitely curved... I'm getting human, maybe half-elf or elf... Hmmm....

5/5 *

Jiggy wrote:
For me it's a matter of finding the persona... I'm picturing a sword, possibly two-handed, definitely curved... I'm getting human, maybe half-elf or elf... Hmmm....

I had the persona, now finally got the mechanics to go with it. Which is why I personally am probably going the EK route.

Wish that that two-handed curvy elven thing worked with Piranha Strike *shakes fist at air*

Sovereign Court 1/5

CRobledo wrote:

Gunslinger 5/Fighter 1/Horizon Walker 3?

You can Dervish, and go shooting into rooms, around corners, around cover, around allies, then end up back in safe range.

Gunslinger 5 for Dex to damage. Fighter level for extra feat. I guess all you really need is Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim...

Plus, Wisdom synergy? Goign HW over EK means you don't need to be a specific race, you you could be one of the Heritages with +Dex and +Wis.

I like this idea, okay so we take Dimensional Agility at 9th level and spend 10 prestige to retrain 2 feats into Dimensional Assault and Dervish. We also need to take Endurance for access into Horizon Walker.

A non Human or Half Orc (Shaman's Apprentice) will have 3 feats to spend giving you Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot. If you are a Musket Master you get Rapid Reload for free and if you are a Human or Half Orc you can grab all four of the feats I listed.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

CRobledo wrote:

Well, you don't need Dimensional Savant for this one, only Dervish, so you could do Human for the feat.

Gunslinger 5 (musket master)/Fighter 1/HW3

(1) Rapid Reload (musket)
(H) Rapid Shot
(3) Deadly Aim
(5) Dimensional Agility (RETRAINED AT 9)
(6 - FBF) <whatever you want> (maybe precise shot or vital strike?)
(7) Dimensional Assault (RETRAINED AT 9)
(9) Dimensional Dervish

As a Musket Master, you get Rapid Reload as a bonus feat, plus the Gunslinger bonus feat at 4, so that frees two up for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. But you also need Endurance to qualify for Horizon Walker, but you could take your Fighter level in Unbreakable, and get that plus Diehard for your bonus.

It would be cooler to do it with a pepperbox, but it works...

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

CRobledo wrote:
Wish that that two-handed curvy elven thing worked with Piranha Strike *shakes fist at air*

It works with Power Attack, if you have at least 13 STR. Works even better than Piranha Strike, in fact. ;)

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A mounted character could be interesting, teleporting off your mount for a flank...

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

If you go Ranger, and choose an Animal Companion, you can take it with you when you Dimension Door.

I'm trying to imagine a Mounted Combat variant with all this...

Maybe a Half-Orc with a double axe riding atop a Rhinoceros via the Beast Rider feat?

EDIT: Jiggy you are an idea-stealing mind ninja!!

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Druid4/Fighter2/HW3 archer who can teleport onto his flying mount before unleashing a volley of arrows from its back?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm sorta picturing something like this:

Bladey McBlinkerson
Half-elf Fighter6/HW3

STR 13
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 13
CHA 10

Half-elf bonus: Ancestral Arms (EWP:ECB)
Also take the alternate FCB so you can activate wands and scrolls as though you're a 1st-level wizard. Because why not? ;)
Feats:
HD1: Endurance
Ftr1: Weapon Finesse
Ftr2: Power Attack
HD3: (Whatever)
Ftr4: Weapon Focus
HD5: (Whatever)
Ftr6: Weapon Specialization
HD7: (Whatever)
HD9: Dimensional Agility, retrain into DimAssault, DimDervish, DimSavant

4/5

Jiggy wrote:
CRobledo wrote:
Wish that that two-handed curvy elven thing worked with Piranha Strike *shakes fist at air*
It works with Power Attack, if you have at least 13 STR. Works even better than Piranha Strike, in fact. ;)

I don't have the book that it comes from, so I'm kinda talking out of my nether regions here, but doesn't Piranha Strike require a light weapon?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yes, hence why it doesn't work with the Elven Curve Blade. But that's okay, because Power Attack on an ECB will give a 3:1 ratio instead of the 2:1 that Piranha Strike would give if it worked. :D

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Hrmm. Actually, I'm wondering if this works with Horizon Walker at all. You gain Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. Would Dimensional Dervish work in lowering its "casting time" to a swift action?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Nefreet wrote:
Hrmm. Actually, I'm wondering if this works with Horizon Walker at all. You gain Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. Would Dimensional Dervish work in lowering its "casting time" to a swift action?

The feat says, "you can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action."

SLAs say, "Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components)." It also goes on to use language that says that you 'cast' spell-like abilities.

Given this, I don't see any conflict between using the feat as a Horizon Walker.

5/5 *

Jiggy wrote:
CRobledo wrote:
Wish that that two-handed curvy elven thing worked with Piranha Strike *shakes fist at air*
It works with Power Attack, if you have at least 13 STR. Works even better than Piranha Strike, in fact. ;)

Hmm if you go ranger 2 instead of fighter levels you can pick up power attack without 13 STR :P

Scarab Sages 4/5

Unrelated retraining question that doesn't deserve its own thread. I want to make sure I have the prestige cost correct. I have a character that dipped fighter at 2nd level and took the Lore Warden archetype. Given the focus of the character (Elven Curved Blade wielding melee oracle designed around the weapon) I should have taken Weapon Master. Fortunately, I can fix that now. With only one level of Lore Warden, it would be 5 prestige and 350 gp (7th lvl overall) to become a regular fighter, since there's one class feature as a 1st level Lore Warden. Weapon Master won't kick in until my 2nd level of fighter, likely at 8th or 9th, so I don't need to pay any extra prestige for that, correct?

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Retraining question answered All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Society