Replacing the horse / camel from the "Bonded Mount" Nature Revelation


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I have a chronicle sheet that opens up a new option for an Animal Companion (for example, the one in the spoiler below), can I replace the Horse/Camel from the Bonded Mount revelation on my Nature oracle?

Scenario Name Below:
The Axe Beak from Path of Perfection, Part III

I really like the idea of my Oracle having a cool animal companion, but I hate that it must be a horse or camel (I'm medium size). Is there any way I can swap it out for something else?

5/5

The Morphling wrote:

If I have a chronicle sheet that opens up a new option for an Animal Companion (for example, the one in the spoiler below), can I replace the Horse/Camel from the Bonded Mount revelation on my Nature oracle?

** spoiler omitted **

I really like the idea of my Oracle having a cool animal companion, but I hate that it must be a horse or camel (I'm medium size). Is there any way I can swap it out for something else?

Relevant language

Spoiler:
If you possess a class feature which permits you to take an animal companion or a mount that progresses as an animal companion, you may add the axe beak to your list of legal and available companions.
Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Aaaaaawesome. Thanks!

The Exchange 4/5

Camels are AWESOME!

"Jammal, tell this chelaxian dog what a great bonded mount you are"

*SPITS*

"You see Morphling, Jammal's argument is flawless."

4/5

Sniggevert wrote:
The Morphling wrote:

If I have a chronicle sheet that opens up a new option for an Animal Companion (for example, the one in the spoiler below), can I replace the Horse/Camel from the Bonded Mount revelation on my Nature oracle?

** spoiler omitted **

I really like the idea of my Oracle having a cool animal companion, but I hate that it must be a horse or camel (I'm medium size). Is there any way I can swap it out for something else?

Relevant language ** spoiler omitted **

Note, however, that if you are a Medium character, you can't use that particular creature as a mount until 4th level.

Bonded Mount (Su) wrote:
...The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount.

The spoilered creature starts at Medium, so you can't use it as a mount until its 4th level advancement when it grows to Large.

Scarab Sages

redward wrote:

Note, however, that if you are a Medium character, you can't use that particular creature as a mount until 4th level.

Bonded Mount (Su) wrote:
...The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount.
The spoilered creature starts at Medium, so you can't use it as a mount until its 4th level advancement when it grows to Large.

Can you point me to the rule that says a medium creature cannot ride a medium creature?

I know eidolons are limited that way but knowing where such a rule exists in the Core Rulebook would be great - I when asked to see the rule could not find it. There are class features that have small races get smaller mounts (perhaps because they are suitable).

It might not be a suitable mount (-5 ride check) but I haven't found the rule and pointing it out would be great.

Liberty's Edge

Dhjika wrote:

Can you point me to the rule that says a medium creature cannot ride a medium creature?

I know eidolons are limited that way but knowing where such a rule exists in the Core Rulebook would be great - I when asked to see the rule could not find it. There are class features that have small races get smaller mounts (perhaps because they are suitable).

It might not be a suitable mount (-5 ride check) but I haven't found the rule and pointing it out would be great.

I don't think there is such a rule.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

One size larger mount is a common sense rule often stated by developers but not in any book that I know of.

That said the PFS FAQ clears that up.

PFS FAQ wrote:

As a paladin or cavalier, what mount can I have?

As a paladin, your divine bond mount must be at least one size category larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC, your mount must be at least Medium. You may only select a mount from the listed mounts on page 63 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook unless another source grants access to additional creature choices. As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play except when granted from another legal source.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Dhjika wrote:
redward wrote:

Note, however, that if you are a Medium character, you can't use that particular creature as a mount until 4th level.

Bonded Mount (Su) wrote:
...The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount.
The spoilered creature starts at Medium, so you can't use it as a mount until its 4th level advancement when it grows to Large.

Can you point me to the rule that says a medium creature cannot ride a medium creature?

I know eidolons are limited that way but knowing where such a rule exists in the Core Rulebook would be great - I when asked to see the rule could not find it. There are class features that have small races get smaller mounts (perhaps because they are suitable).

It might not be a suitable mount (-5 ride check) but I haven't found the rule and pointing it out would be great.

In a quick look at the Core Rulebook, the section on mounted combat (p. 201-202) did not provide any clues, but the mounts section of the equipment chapter (p. 162) calls out the creatures for which particular mounts (of a particular size) are suitable. Large creatures (specifically horses) are named as suitable for humans, half-elves, half-orcs, dwarves, and elves. Ponies and riding dogs get the same call-out for gnomes and halflings.

I don't see an explicit, blanket rule in the course of a few minutes' research (though I'd appreciate hearing where it is if someone spots it), but that's the working assumption for Pathfinder Society: your mount must be at least one size category larger than you are.

PLUS: Dragnmoon's link to the FAQ also supports this.


Thanks for the clarification, John. I knew of the paladin, cavalier, etc... Requirement but for purchased mounts I had seen no rule anywhere (and still don't). I know it kinda makes common sense, but I could see a creature of a given size carrying another of the same size (piggy-back rides, anyone?).

That once again leaves halfling cavaliers not able to ride a dog at level 1, which is weird, but I guess that's what wolves are for.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

CRobledo wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, John. I knew of the paladin, cavalier, etc... Requirement but for purchased mounts I had seen no rule anywhere (and still don't). I know it kinda makes common sense, but I could see a creature of a given size carrying another of the same size (piggy-back rides, anyone?).

Sure, one can carry another piggy-back, but at that point it's not really a classic rider-mount style of maneuvering, and it would be difficult to say the least to engage in combat like that. That said, I remember an item in a 3rd edition Dragon Magazine called the gnome battlepack or the like which was basically a backpack for carrying a Small humanoid who enjoyed a limited degree of flexibility.

Quote:
That once again leaves halfling cavaliers not able to ride a dog at level 1, which is weird, but I guess that's what wolves are for.

Halfling cavaliers already weren't able to ride dogs (animal companion) at 1st level. The cavalier class calls out dogs and boars as being unavailable until 4th level, at which point both receive a size boost to Medium. A purchased riding dog is certainly in the picture.


Couldn't Halflings get a wolf? There is an archetype that specifically calls out for a wolf.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Finlanderboy wrote:
Couldn't Halflings get a wolf? There is an archetype that specifically calls out for a wolf.

Yes, nothing in my statement above aims to contradict the existing rules and call-outs in class abilities noting that halflings (Small) can ride wolves (typically Medium). You're thinking of the Order of the Paw cavalier archetype from Advanced Race Guide.

Scarab Sages

John Compton wrote:


In a quick look at the Core Rulebook, the section on mounted combat (p. 201-202) did not provide any clues, but the mounts section of the equipment chapter (p. 162) calls out the creatures for which particular mounts (of a particular size) are suitable. Large creatures (specifically horses) are named as suitable for humans, half-elves, half-orcs, dwarves, and elves. Ponies and riding dogs get the same call-out for gnomes and halflings.

I don't see an explicit, blanket rule in the course of a few minutes' research (though I'd appreciate hearing where it is if someone spots it), but that's the working assumption for Pathfinder Society: your mount must be at least one size category larger than you are.

PLUS: Dragnmoon's link to the FAQ also supports this.

I understand that one size larger is what is required to be suitable - could the FAQ be updated to reflect you cannot ride an mount your size or smaller?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Ponies are specifically called out as being suitable mounts for dwarves

Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves, but they also make fond pets for humans as well. They stand 3 to 4 feet tall and weigh about 600 pounds.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ponies are specifically called out as being suitable mounts for dwarves

Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves, but they also make fond pets for humans as well. They stand 3 to 4 feet tall and weigh about 600 pounds.

If you read further down...

Like horses, ponies can be trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill, and such mounts often serve halflings, gnomes, and other small races as steeds in combat.

Note that they are called out as being suited for Dwarves but not for using them as mounts. Presumably they use them as beasts of burden or maybe food for their bear cavalry.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Pirate Rob wrote:


Note that they are called out as being suited for Dwarves but not for using them as mounts.

Yeah, no. And don't imply i didn't read the entire thing just because I didn't twist the language beyond recognition.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:


Note that they are called out as being suited for Dwarves but not for using them as mounts.

Yeah, no. And don't imply i didn't read the entire thing just because I didn't twist the language beyond recognition.

I'm sorry if my post offended you, maybe I'm just reading yours wrong.

I'm not sure how quoting more of the text is twisting the language beyond recognition. I was just trying to help clear up a somewhat common misbelief (one that I used to hold) that ponies are called out as suitable mounts for Dwarves.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Pirate Rob wrote:

I'm not sure how quoting more of the text is twisting the language beyond recognition.

Virtually the only instance of the word Suitable in the entire SRD refers to mounts but a suitable mount is never defined. Here you have the pony being specifically called out as being suitable for dwarves, but instead of suitable mount (which is what you primarily use a pony for) you somehow avoid that conclusion you randomly go with suitable pack animal: which is completely meaningless because you don't need suitability in a pack animal.

Its the exact same language from 3.5, where dwarves canonically rode ponies.

Quote:
I was just trying to help clear up a somewhat common misbelief (one that I used to hold) that ponies are called out as suitable mounts for Dwarves.

Its not a misconception. Pathfinder might have wanted to get away from a race without a strength penalty riding a medium mount but if so they didn't manage to file off all the serial numbers or just spell it out that the mount needed to be bigger.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

I've brought this issue with the design team, and I'll keep you posted on any updates.

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