One of my players is a pitborn tiefling and a paladin of Iomedae. How are the other paladins (all NPCs) suppose to act to this? would they not trust him because of his demon blood?
What does the part on the Kenabres' stat block about being racist toward tieflings mean (and where can i find the interpretation of these city stat blocks, cause i don't know what any of them mean)
Would the main NPCs such as Irabeth and Queen Galfrey dislike or like him anymore than the average john doe?
-thanks for your thoughts
Creative Director
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The way the other paladins are supposed to act toward him depends on the other paladins. Not all paladins are the same. The generalized feel toward tieflings in the Worldwound IS to not trust them, though, so a tiefling paladin will want to be VERY obvious about it and should expect to get the detect evil eye all the time and should work hard at building his reputation.
Kenabres's attitude toward tieflings is a city trait, as detailed in GameMastery Guide.
The iconic NPCs should instinctively trust the PC though... that's what sets them apart, after all, and you want the PCs to trust and like them. Furthermore, if ANY paladin is going to be accepting of another despite race... it's Irabeth, who's had to go through the same prejudices in her time in Lastwall due to her orc blood.
I actually had set up my own tiefling paladin as having been in the city for about a month and a friend of Irabeth before the campaign started (one of the few that accepted her at face value for obvious reasons). They had not met Anevia (or learned her name yet) so it kept a lot of that fun later on.
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Creative Director
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Kenabres's attitude toward tieflings is a city trait, as detailed in GameMastery Guide.Anyone know where in the GMG this is? No mention of it in the index (either that or I'm just blind).
Page 207; the entry for "Racially Intolerant." Basically, in Kenabris, Tieflings pay 150% for anything they buy and face mockery, insult, and perhaps violence.
Right so a follow up to that. So in the book it says they are racially intolerant of tieflings, but in the player's guide it says that "At one time tieflings were distrusted and shunned..." making it sound like they are accepted now? Or is it more of a they are accepted once they prove it sort of thing?
I'd imagine that to mean at one time they were lucky to even be let within half a mile of the front gates of the city, now at least they can get in even though they're disliked.
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Creative Director
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Right so a follow up to that. So in the book it says they are racially intolerant of tieflings, but in the player's guide it says that "At one time tieflings were distrusted and shunned..." making it sound like they are accepted now? Or is it more of a they are accepted once they prove it sort of thing?
Accepted once they prove their good intentions. It's no longer a case of guilty and can never be proven innocent... it was, at one time.
The iconic NPCs should instinctively trust the PC though... that's what sets them apart, after all, and you want the PCs to trust and like them. Furthermore, if ANY paladin is going to be accepting of another despite race... it's Irabeth, who's had to go through the same prejudices in her time in Lastwall due to her orc blood.
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We have a Tiefling Paladin who's going to be in the group and that is EXACTLY what I was thinking, that Irabeth would in particular champion his cause once she comes to know what kind of person he is due to her own experiences... conversely, Horgus would be the hardest to win over, but the most loyal friend once he has been (even if he's still a curmudgeon about it).That dynamic is one of the things I'm looking forward to most in RP in the early books.
Right so a follow up to that. So in the book it says they are racially intolerant of tieflings, but in the player's guide it says that "At one time tieflings were distrusted and shunned..." making it sound like they are accepted now? Or is it more of a they are accepted once they prove it sort of thing?Accepted once they prove their good intentions. It's no longer a case of guilty and can never be proven innocent... it was, at one time.
Consider too how many individuals in the City - likely at its very gates - have easy access to a Detect Evil spell.
I'm quite sure that a Thiefling with an aura of good, and holy symbols on every possession he has, would not be a problem. It is mentioned that thieflings are not uncommon over there, and with nearly every race having a stake in the crusade. its probably more open-minded then the rest of the world. not to mention that they have actual criminals fighting their war (low Templars and all).
But yes, you will get detected a lot. tolerance and acceptance are very different sentiments. However, as long as you clearly are a paladin of Iomedae, the peasantry will not throw rocks at you
Plus, detect evil CAN be fooled. Which I'm sure has occurred on more than one occasion. What with the demons and all.
It's also worth noting that tieflings won't inherently detect as evil unless they actually are evil. On the other hand, an evil tiefling is an outsider aligned to evil, so even at first level they'll still set off alarm bells where an evil human wouldn't. (I think the "aligned outsider" designation in detect evil doesn't refer to evil subtype, otherwise "aligned undead" wouldn't have much use since most undead don't actually have the evil subtype.)
EDIT: On the gripping hand, a good tiefling will likewise show up on a detect good scan even at low levels.
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Creative Director
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So a tiefling who'd grown up in Kenabres and gone on to become a paladin would be fine? Just curious since I'm using one in a WotR game on Myth Weavers at the moment and she was a bit of a short-tempered brat when she was younger. And til about halfway through her teenage years, but was getting better reigning things in by then.Right so a follow up to that. So in the book it says they are racially intolerant of tieflings, but in the player's guide it says that "At one time tieflings were distrusted and shunned..." making it sound like they are accepted now? Or is it more of a they are accepted once they prove it sort of thing?Accepted once they prove their good intentions. It's no longer a case of guilty and can never be proven innocent... it was, at one time.
At your option yes... you can start the game with a tiefling paladin and his/her reputation can be pre-established in your game. It could be fun to work with the GM to set up some rivalries based on less-open-minded crusaders though!
A few of my players asked about tieflings during character creation. When I said they needed to think about the consequences of a tiefling in a city that is on the warfront of a demon invasion, they quickly pointed to the player guide.
I didn't prohibit any race, just consequences might be felt for races that may be seen as undesirable. This might be the reverse for races that were seen in a more positive light (say the Core races).
I also told them it may not only be the tieflings that have a hard time in Kenabres. Catfolk, as an example, might have things tougher then other races given the attitudes of Hulrun's Inquisitors; as described in Certainty.
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Furthermore, if ANY paladin is going to be accepting of another despite race... it's Irabeth, who's had to go through the same prejudices in her time in Lastwall due to her orc blood.
Really? Just because someone is from discriminated minority A doesn't mean that they don't have as much, or possibly more, dislike of discriminated minority B.
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Creative Director
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Furthermore, if ANY paladin is going to be accepting of another despite race... it's Irabeth, who's had to go through the same prejudices in her time in Lastwall due to her orc blood.Really? Just because someone is from discriminated minority A doesn't mean that they don't have as much, or possibly more, dislike of discriminated minority B.
In a generic sense of that argument, sure.
I'm not talking about a "generic half-orc paladin" here though. I'm talking about a SPECIFIC one who WOULD be very open-minded to a tiefling paladin.
Yeah, Irabeth as written has very good reasons to be open and trusting, even with those of races like tiefling (doubly so if they are a paladin!). She isn't just a 'disciminated minority A', she's a specific example for a reason.
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Something to keep in mind about Mendev is that the Worldwound (not to mention the demons and Abyssal energies that come from it) are playing the long game of temptation and corruption. Everyone in the area knows this. They know just how diabolical and twisting the Worldwound is, and just because Mr. Paladin the Cursed-One isn't evil now, one day they are going to give in to their dark sides. And they are right to know that that is what's going to happen (even if Mr PC with their authentic floating PC tag above their head actually isn't), because that's what the Worldwound does. Mr PC might not want to. Might not believe it, even afterwards. Might not even see it. And probably will be very against it when it does happen, but that's not good enough to risk your nearest and dearest for.
Huh. I didn't see that discrimination tag there. Will be frankly ignoring it. In my campaign the Crusades are the most accepting organization in Golarion. No matter what you did before you joined, if you're willing to defend all the world from demons, you're good enough for them. Part of why I let my players make almost any 0HD race for this particular path (which resulted in both a Catfolk and a Suli). I'm a little disappointed to hear that Kenebres as written is racist against those that are considered more a victim in mine.
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Huh. I didn't see that discrimination tag there. Will be frankly ignoring it. In my campaign the Crusades are the most accepting organization in Golarion. No matter what you did before you joined, if you're willing to defend all the world from demons, you're good enough for them. Part of why I let my players make almost any 0HD race for this particular path (which resulted in both a Catfolk and a Suli). I'm a little disappointed to hear that Kenebres as written is racist against those that are considered more a victim in mine.
You have to remember that a lot of tieflings are fighting on the other side of the battle as well (enough that the first couple armies we've fought in the second book have been tiefling armies). The crusaders might very well be accepting, but the people who live along the border have been terrorized by tiefling attacks their whole lives. That's going to breed some animosity, even among otherwise good people (especially when you can't be sure that the new tiefling in town isn't a spy or double agent of some kind).
That's how I read it, too. Racism isn't always about ignorance or blind hate. Sometimes its driven by fear and in this case, I think the people of Kenebres have some legitimate concerns.
Not sure I see where the general consensus believe that there is no clear leadership. As early as the Second Crusade, they saw the demon hordes driven by powerful commanders. Even earlier then that, their town was infiltrated by demonic infiltrators. We also know that the Storm King has been leading the charge since the Fourth Crusade, indicating a pretty clear leader.
Since the century of relentless attacks from the Worldwound, I can't really see why the populace of Kenabres wouldn't be very wary of anything demon touched.
Just because there are powerful demons fighting doesn't mean there's leadership. "Everyone" knows demons are chaotic and embody chaos, not orderly combat. The disinformation campaign by the demons' cultists also helps push this message. So while you can have a demonic army here and there, those are considered exceptions to the rule.
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Something to keep in mind about Mendev is that the Worldwound (not to mention the demons and Abyssal energies that come from it) are playing the long game of temptation and corruption. Everyone in the area knows this. They know just how diabolical and twisting the Worldwound is, and just because Mr. Paladin the Cursed-One isn't evil now, one day they are going to give in to their dark sides. And they are right to know that that is what's going to happen (even if Mr PC with their authentic floating PC tag above their head actually isn't), because that's what the Worldwound does. Mr PC might not want to. Might not believe it, even afterwards. Might not even see it. And probably will be very against it when it does happen, but that's not good enough to risk your nearest and dearest for.Everyone in the area specificaly does NOT know that the demons are "playing the long game of temptation and corruption". The books are very specific that the general consensu is a simple belief the demons are disorganized and without clear leadership... you know, chaos and all.
Because that's what Demons in Golarion do. There is no Blood War, so rather than being the disorganized bloodthirsty ravagers that live for death and destruction, they play games, they tempt, they seduce, and they infect with cults. Don't get me wrong, they slaughter, too, but because of the Wardstones, they have changed their tactics a lot, and are very focused on infiltrating, creating cultists, and creating Tieflings. Now, if you don't want to go with that, no one is saying you have to. :)
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Just because there are powerful demons fighting doesn't mean there's leadership. "Everyone" knows demons are chaotic and embody chaos, not orderly combat. The disinformation campaign by the demons' cultists also helps push this message. So while you can have a demonic army here and there, those are considered exceptions to the rule.
All Chaotic means is that they will follow the strongest. It doesn't mean they are disorderly, but more like they are less concerned with has the right to rule in favor of who has the power, charisma, or guile to take leadership.
There is patterns within chaos. (Chaos theory, that is.)
I was just stating the "commonly believed misinformation."
I wasn't making up the terms like "powerful commanders". That came from the Player's Guide and seems to indicate a leadership structure within the demon hordes.
Back to the OP's question, if the demons were completely chaotic, I would think that's worse for tieflings. If everyone believed that a demon is unpredictable, then it would seem reasonable that anything or anyone demon touched would carry the same sentiments. You wouldn't be able to trust half-demon, since you would never know if the tiefling's chaotic side would kick in, in an unpredictable way. Even the most tolerant NPCs would have to keep an eye on a tiefling, just in case.
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One of the greatest weapons arrayed against the crusaders is their own mortal ignorance. The crusaders have long held that it is the inherent disorganization of demonic hordes, coupled with the bolstering wall of the wardstones, that keeps the world safe from the Worldwound. Unfortunately, while a leaderless mass of demons is indeed a bickering tangle of chaotic, directionless violence, the demons of the Worldwound are far from leaderless.
There you go. The crusaders don't believe there's a leader uniting the demons.
Now I'm tempted to have every single demon in my game have a cat's head. ;)
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more lawful counterparts, the devils of Hell, seek to twist mortal minds and values to remake and reshape them into reflections of their own evil, demons seek only to maim, ruin, and feed. They recruit mortal life only if such cohorts speed along the eventual destruction of hope and goodness. Death is, in some ways, their enemy—for a mortal who dies can often escape a demon's depredations and flee to his just reward in the afterlife. It is the prolonging of mortal pain and suffering that fuels a demon's lusts and desires, for it is partially from mortal sin and cruelty that these monstrous fiends were born.
Demon Lords
Demon lords are the most powerful of their kind—and as with the demonic horde itself, they are countless and varied. Although mighty, and in some cases gods themselves, no demon lord can claim rule of the Abyss as a whole—the best one can attain is rulership over a handful of Abyssal realms, and most can barely maintain sway over even one layer of the Abyss. Another category of unique demons exists between
the mighty balor race and the demon lords—these are nascent demon lords, powerful entities that, in time, might achieve enough power that the Abyss takes note and elevates them to the status of actual demon lords.
on the front lines. As far back as the First Crusade, many immigrating crusaders suspected the native Iobarian culture and its druidic faith of being demon-tainted. Hundreds of indigenous Mendevians and pilgrims have been burned at the stake in Kenabres alone since these trials began. Crusader leaders in the past turned a blind eye to this cruelty, preferring to focus on military matters, but the Order of Heralds instituted with the Fourth Crusade has made considerable strides in curbing the inquisition. Even in Kenabres, the ardor of the inquisition has dimmed somewhat, and many hope it will be utterly extinguished with the death of the aged prelate—but quietly here and there throughout Mendev, the screaming flames still echo the passion of her most fervent zealots.
price of their actions proved steep, but, as the wardstones flared to life, the menhirs contained the demons within lost Sarkoris and saved tens of thousands from grisly deaths. Yet despite this success, the near- total loss of Sarkoris is generally regarded as the final capstone on a disastrous crusade. <no time o copy, but check out the 3rd & 4th Crusades as well.>
Upshot--the Crusaders don't know the extent to which the demons are manipulating events. But they certainly know that demons are embodiments of corruption and sin. Given Staunton Vhane and the reasoning behind the witch hunts, they know demonic infiltrators are a thing. There are certainly many tieflings amongst the demonic forces, and the fact is that most tieflings in the world are *not* rebels against their fiendish heritage. The Crusaders have little to no reason to believe that any given tiefling is not a danger.
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Arch, I'm in agreement with Victor on this one, and I say this as a Tiefling player in WotR. Had anyone but the iconic NPCs not been looking at my Transmuter with either a mixture of concern, loathing or outright fear throughout book 1, I would have felt things weren't progressing appropriately.
Throughout the party's time in book 1, they're fighting armed militias of Tieflings, roving the streets, looting, pillaging, burning and murdering with the backup of Brimoraks and Quasits. When our group would encounter new sets of NPCs, my transmuter hung back around the corner until the NPCs had seen the Paladin's and Cleric's symbols of Sarenrae and the Inquisitor's symbol of Iomedae. She openly wore her symbol of Milani where everyone could see to serve as a reminder for the divine-focused characters more likely to recognize her faith.
Half the time, though, the generic NPCs took one look at the transmuter and half expected that we were another group of corrupted and turned crusaders, which was a thing we'd seen and fought. Until the end of Book 1, distrust was at the point of violence, and so the transmuter never went alone or ahead of the party. In book 2, that distrust shouldn't have faded yet in Kenebras and it hadn't. We had the Cleric make our purchases in town and the transmuter spent most of her time crafting items during down time, out of sight of anyone. Once she was given partial command over military forces under the Paladin, and they were on their way to Drezen, then the general NPCs opened up. They knew this was a tiefling that Galfrey had invested authority in, so she should be safe.
Now, it's book 5, and she's one of the heroes of the crusade. Galfrey has called her by name. Her reception in Kenebras might be a little different, but that's because she's moved beyond being 'just another damned tiefling scumbag' in the minds of the people. I wanted to earn that with the character, not have it handed to me because it was more convenient.