So it's obviously super unoptimized but I really like the flavor so I want to experiment with making a Druid/Witch/Mystic Theurge. Anybody got any idea on how I can work past the obvious flaws to give the character some extra kick?
Aside from the normal Mystic Theurge problems (getting past SR, late spell access, split casting stats etc. etc.) problems specific to this build would be,
- Witches hexes won't scale
- Witches Familiar won't scale
- Animal Companion won't scale (pity too, having one would be super useful... guess a domain it is)
- The spontaneous summons that are a big part of druids will be one, sometimes two spell levels behind.
So how about it, any archetypes, feats, traits etc. that make this idea less crappy? Early game stuff, late game stuff, whatever, just looking for any tricks to make this viable.
*caveat* Using SLAs as prestige class prerequisites will not be available.
- Torger
I would think that the scarred witch doctor orc archetype would work well (con as casting stat)
Take Eschew materials, find a form to shift into that adds nice con =D
Con is a better casting stat for sure.
As for getting a con bonus from wild shape though the earliest way to get one would be turning into a small water elemental and I wouldn't be able to do that till druid 6th. So either delaying MT for 3 more level (yuck) or waiting till very... very late game.
- Torger
Not to try to be a jerk, but without the SLA ability the prestige class is pretty gimped add into it that you're pulling just spell casting from 2 classes chock full of awesome class features that don't work or wont scale. My question is what exactly do you want this character to do because in my opinion the Witch is already a pretty kick ass mystic theurge all on its own without picking up prestige classes that'll end up gimping your character. I say just play a witch or druid and flavor them as if they had the other classes fluff(if that's what you're after) if on the other hand you are bound and determined pick up magical knack, beg your GM to allow esoteric training from the guild rules(which I'm thinking will be a no go given the SLA comment) or just recognize that you chose to be underpowered. You wont even be able to do the only thing that the traditional cleric/wiz theurge had going for it and excel at buff/support. The witch spells are mainly debuff with control and druid spells are mainly control(especially at low level). Control is going to be difficult with 2 casting stats. Maybe play a half orc scarred witch doctor so that con does all the witch heavy lifting. All I can say is good luck.
I'm well aware of all the downsides as I mentioned in my first post. I'm under no illusions that this build could ever be anything close to optimal. I'm ok with that.
As for what I'm trying to accomplish witches have a lot of cursey necromancy that druids don't have. Druids have animal/plant nature magic that witches don't have. I very much want both spell lists.
I don't know what esoteric training or "guild rules" are. I can't find them on the SRD. Where do they come from?
- Torger
well there's also the options like Elemental body the spell =D
Unfortunately it's on neither the witch, not the druid spell list :(
- Torger
Well, you could use Animal Ally to allow a scaling animal companion. You would have to take this before you get an AC from druid, though.
Also, many familiar abilities are based on character level (hp, BAB, skills), so its not as cut and dried as familiar "doesn't scale." You could consider taking Improved Familiar.
Pick Hexes that are generally useful without scaling (Feral Speech isn't really level dependent and makes sense for a Witch/Druid). Cauldron, Nails, Fly, and Water Lung are useful without leveling.
The split casting stats doesn't have to be a huge deal, just remember which "side" you are focusing on. Ex. You want to focus on Witch casting. Make Int as high as possible, and start with a 12 or 14 in Wis. Since you will probably go something like Witch 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Witch +4, you will only reach 7th level spells as a Druid, so you only need a 17 which can be reached with magic items.
Spell selection is more important here. CL will be lower affecting SR and spell effect. So taking more buff spells, or at least attacks that don't allow SR, is something to consider. And even lower level Buff spells are usually appreciated by party members.
Well, you could use Animal Ally to allow a scaling animal companion. You would have to take this before you get an AC from druid, though.
What is this? where does it come from? I can't find it on the SRD.
Also, many familiar abilities are based on character level (hp, BAB, skills), so its not as cut and dried as familiar "doesn't scale."
Pick Hexes that are generally useful without scaling (Feral Speech isn't really level dependent and makes sense for a Witch/Druid). Cauldron, Nails, Fly, and Water Lung are useful without leveling.
The split casting stats doesn't have to be a huge deal, just remember which "side" you are focusing on. Ex. You want to focus on Witch casting. Make Int as high as possible, and start with a 12 or 14 in Wis. Since you will probably go something like Witch 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Witch +4, you will only reach 7th level spells as a Druid, so you only need a 17 which can be reached with magic items.
Spell selection is more important here. CL will be lower affecting SR and spell effect. So taking more buff spells, or at least attacks that don't allow SR, is something to consider. And even lower level Buff spells are usually appreciated by party members.
Perhaps familiar doesn't scale as well would have been more apt.
Certainly picking one spell list for spells with saves and one spell list for "other" is the way to go. I'm usually working with a generous point buy so I'm not too worried about making the minimum stats I'll need.
Unfortunately neither the Witch nor the Druid is a super buff machine but your point is well taken spell selection will be key.
- Torger
I don't think there are any real good ways of making this type of character pop...
It'll be what you want, and that's about all that can be said.
That's basically the conclusion I came to but I figured I'd make this thread anyway in case the community knew something I didn't.
Thanks for thinking about it anyway ^_^
- Torger
I tried to make the same kind of Witch/Druid/MT a while back and gave up once I got to about to character level 5. The concept was a African style witchdoctor. I had a great backstory/character concept and thought if I persisted through the low levels the character would develop into something fun but the low levels were just not much fun. Maybe if the character started around level 8 it might have been ok.
Admittedly I never got into the MT bit (the campaign petered out) so I can't really comment on how it would have ended up. I thought once I got wildshape it would get better but I wasn't likely to actually get that. Once I got some more powerful hexes I thought it would get better - but I wouldn't actually get more powerful ones.
The range of spells was good and would not have been a problem long term. But missing out on wild shape and most hexes was the killer. If you have a DM who is willing to be flexible - maybe allow MT levels to count towards wildshape and/or hex progression - then the concept would have worked quite well. Or let all your levels stack for purposes of familiar or animal companion.
I tried to make the same kind of Witch/Druid/MT a while back and gave up once I got to about to character level 5. The concept was a African style witchdoctor. I had a great backstory/character concept and thought if I persisted through the low levels the character would develop into something fun but the low levels were just not much fun. Maybe if the character started around level 8 it might have been ok.
Admittedly I never got into the MT bit (the campaign petered out) so I can't really comment on how it would have ended up. I thought once I got wildshape it would get better but I wasn't likely to actually get that. Once I got some more powerful hexes I thought it would get better - but I wouldn't actually get more powerful ones.
The range of spells was good and would not have been a problem long term. But missing out on wild shape and most hexes was the killer. If you have a DM who is willing to be flexible - maybe allow MT levels to count towards wildshape and/or hex progression - then the concept would have worked quite well. Or let all your levels stack for purposes of familiar or animal companion.
Very cool. I'm glad some else has seen the flavor potential here.
I'm actually not that attached to wild shape. I get that it's very powerful but with the last druid I played I found having to know the specifics of a whole bunch of forms to be more bookkeeping than I really wanted.
Loosing hex progression on the other hand hurts and hurts bad.
I think once you actually get a few levels deep into Mystic Theurge having two unusual spell lists to play with and a ton of spell slots per day could be a lot of fun.
I think I might be able to get My DM to give me a full progression animal companion but that's not certain by any stretch.
- Torger
Animal Ally is a feat from Faiths and Philosophies.
It gives you an AC at character level -3, but you can't take it if you have one. So a domain druid could take it, and get a scaling AC.
I also have to say that the Scarred Witch Doctor mentioned by lantzkev would be great since everyone needs Con.
Animal Ally is a feat from Faiths and Philosophies.
It gives you an AC at character level -3, but you can't take it if you have one. So a domain druid could take it, and get a scaling AC.
I also have to say that the Scarred Witch Doctor mentioned by lantzkev would be great since everyone needs Con.
That's interesting. I wonder if could then take boon companion for a full level animal companion.
Indeed, CON is universally loved. Not super keen on an orc or a half-orc. Definitely something to think about though.
- Torger
The feat Boon Companion should fix your animal companion issues. +4 animal companion levels (to your max level). You might have to take it twice, if that's even allowed, but only at higher levels.
Can you use Wild Casting on your arcane spells? Something to look up.
If you focus on buffs and summons, you won't need to worry about spell resistance. Damage reduction, on the other hand... IME, playing a druid, DR was huge. I found I didn't do much summoning, because I invariably needed to cast Greater Magic Fang (a spell that lasts 1 level/hour on a target that lasts 1 round/level isn't worth it), so instead, I would buff my animal companion with Greater Magic Fang ahead of time, then cast Animal Growth on it in combat. (I try not to spend more than one round casting buffing spells in combat.)
Your buff access will be delayed, but think of the long-term buffs you could cast on your companion. Or even short-term buffs like Haste.
I would recommend an animal companion and not a domain. You already have a lot of spells, and a great variety, as a mystic theurge. Your animal companion should have pounce. A big cat is the best one for this.
Wild Shape kicks in at druid 4. Mystic Theurge kicks in at Druid 3/Witch 3. I could wait till Druid 4/Witch 3 but considering how far I'll already be behind I'm loathe to put off my prestige class levels unless there's something super cool I can do with wild shape. So unless something like that comes up I'm not concerned about casting in wild shape till 16th level at the earliest.
Being at least a spell level behind on summoning spells doesn't really appeal to me so I doubt I'll focus too much on summoning either. Definitely a nice option to have though. Especial considering the issues I'm likely to have with SR.
Our games always have the potential to go till 20th level so if I can get a full or close to full level companion then it'll be companion for sure. If after looking at my options my companion will be lagging behind at high levels then sadly it won't be. I see what you're saying though and I agree that having a combat buddy is more appealing than a few extra spells per day on a character whose big thing is already having a ton of spells per day.
My current plan for spell selection is for my druid spells to focus on buffs and terrain manipulation while my witch spells will focus on curses, debuffs and emergency blasting with probably a little enchantment for funsies.
- Torger
If this is for a home game i think Working with the GM pehaps to make witch patron with a druidic touch or getting some kind of feats to let some of the class features for the 2 classes scale with the MT.
Alternativli just go for it. If your int( or con if you go orc) is High enough the hexes can stay relevant for some time. And make sure to get a great personallity then the relative power of the character is les important.
Or do some early entrance cheese. :)
But other classes can have a simular feel( wizard with Black cat familier, cleric with plant and fur domains pehaps) so unless there is somthing mechanic specifik you need you can do MT with those for greater effect.
Edit: a witch with with a level dip in crossblooded sorcerer (serpentine and undead) will be alle to influence quite broardly on animals and magical beasts and Claes the gab witch have with undead rater nicely i think.
Animal Ally has a pre-req feat and you'll want to follow it up with Boon Companion, so it is a bit of an investment (but probably totally worth it).
i'm not sure exactly what 'nature' spells you want from the druid list, but you really may be better off going straight witch with the animal patron- just pick your hexes thematically and invest the feats for an animal companion. if you really want to get creative- you could take points that would have gone into a second casting stat and invest in Cha instead, then pick up the verdant bloodline (or some other nature-related one); that with the animal companion will burn through a lot of feats, but you won't be struggling to overcome missing caster levels or trying to make due with lower level spells, so you should be in good shape. plus you'll actually be able to use your hexes which are one of (if not the) best thing about the class.
Well the issue you are going to have is that MT is a pure casting class, the pleasure of playing a MT is having two whole spell lists at your disposal and a pile of spells per day that you can choke a dire goat with.
Both the witch and the druid are full casters + toys class, meaning that their class abilities are almost as important as their spell casting abilities. Both the witch and the druid have a pile of class abilities that do not translate into Theurgy and so they sacrifice more to become theurges than say the traditional Wizard/Cleric.
There are things you can do however.
First off you can go half elf, this gives you multi talented (which sadly does not work with PRCs but at least can give you three more hit points) and access to the Bonded Witch, having a bonded item instead of a familiar does help as all of the abilities the item give you scale with your casting ability. You can use your skill focus to take Knowledge Nature and Eldritch bloodline to keep your Druid pet scaling with you (you need boon companion to keep it at your level, but a build based around buffing mr snuggles has a lot to recommend it to.
You can go Half Orc, which gives you the con based witch which is undeniably awesome and once again not familiar dependent, Also they have that neat Tattoo of awesome racial ability that cannot be denied.
For your Druid half I cannot recommend Menhir Savant enough, +1 caster level is simply too good to pass up even if it is only for a few spells a day. If you do not feel like making the feat investment for a full animal companion then the wind sub-domain is pretty cool, the wind blast power very clearly scales with your caster level and not your class level and the spells are pretty nice to have.
@ Cap. Darling
I'll be banking on personality over relative power with this character for sure. I think there's a very good chance of me getting a full scale animal companion and I might be able to wrangle out other scaling class features but those would essentially be gifts from the DM. I'd love to get them but I don't want to bank on them. As for what I really want mechanically it's unfettered access to both spell lists and within the rules MT is the only way I know to get that.
@ nate lange
So the game values a full level animal companion @ three feats. Interesting, and as you say probably totally worth it. The prereq. feat isn't a total bust either. It's bonuses to skills I'd want this character to be good at any way so that's cool.
The idea of picking up a naturey bloodline on a witch with a naturey patron is an interesting one and worthy of consideration.
Still I'd like to try for something that give me complete access to both spell lists and see if that's doable. It is an Interesting idea I hadn't considered though.
P.S. Thanks for providing the link to Animal Ally ^_^
@ Thaliak
My group is third party/homebrew shy but they don't ban it outright. I'll certainly have a look at those and perhaps even pitch them to the DM but even if I do I'd like to have a backup that's all official paizo stuff just in case.
Thanks for the reading material either way though.
- Torger
First off you can go half elf, this gives you multi talented (which sadly does not work with PRCs but at least can give you three more hit points) and access to the Bonded Witch, having a bonded item instead of a familiar does help as all of the abilities the item give you scale with your casting ability. You can use your skill focus to take Knowledge Nature and Eldritch bloodline to keep your Druid pet scaling with you (you need boon companion to keep it at your level, but a build based around buffing mr snuggles has a lot to recommend it to.
You can go Half Orc, which gives you the con based witch which is undeniably awesome and once again not familiar dependent, Also they have that neat Tattoo of awesome racial ability that cannot be denied.
For your Druid half I cannot recommend Menhir Savant enough, +1 caster level is simply too good to pass up even if it is only for a few spells a day. If you do not feel like making the feat investment for a full animal companion then the wind sub-domain is pretty cool, the wind blast power very clearly scales with your caster level and not your class level and the spells are pretty nice to have.
My group straight up ignores the rule that prestige classes can't be favored classes so half-elf has even more to offer.
and I very much like the idea of trading out what will be a pretty crappy familiar for something useful.
I was also considering elf as a race though for the free +2 to SR checks. That plus a feat spent has me at normal odds +1 vs SR for most of my career. It's attractive. Still you make a convincing argument for half-elf.
The mechanics of Half-Orc are nothing but awesome for this build and I recognize that. The flavor isn't exactly what I'm going for but if I think about it long enough maybe I'll work something out.
So far strong race contenders are Half-Elf, Elf, Half-Orc & Human (depending on how I go about getting an animal companion the free feat may be necessary).
Menhir Savant, Very Sexy. CL is going to be a huge problem for this character and any little boost helps.
Thanks for some great ideas.
- Torger
The Blue contenders for race on a MT are: Human (Of course), Half Elf, Samsarans.
Depending on where your group stands on early entrance to MT Asamir and Teifling are ultra blue or green.
My advice is decide which class to be most awesome with and run with it, focus primarily on your casting stat for that class and use magic items to keep your secondary class cast-able.
Also if you end with a druidic level High enough for wildshaping with 4 levels and a feat pehaps. Remember that natural Spell also work with witch spells and properly also hexes.
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On a side note, the ACG will have the Shaman (druid/witch) base class.
Can you use 3.5 material? If so, I would look at the Arcane Heirophant from Races of the Wild. It is a Mystic Theurge style class, but specifically for druid/arcane and advances class features.
The Green Faith Acolyte could help add druid abilities back after MT (companion, wildshape).
Either go with Samasboy1's arcane hierophant idea, or work with your GM on a custom PrC for druid/witch.
Maybe some kind of druid 4/witch 1 or 3 PrC, requiring wildshape and hex abilities? Maybe combining familiar and animal companion like the AH. Maybe granting hexes at odd levels and wild shapes at even levels?
In my home games a witch casts off wisdom, so there is some symmetry there. See if you can borrow that, as it's a relatively minor houserule.
@ rat_ bastard
I feel like the SR bonus that elves get make them at bare minimum a hard green/soft blue as a race contender. Especialy when you consider their stat modifiers are one very good +2 (INT), one very bad -2 (CON) and one good +2 (DEX) which to me is net gain in the stats department.
I'm playing a samsaran in our current game so while I recognize how good they are mechanically I probably won't go here.
SLAs as prestige class prereqs doesn't fly at our table so Teiflings/Assimar are green at best.
I'll probably be focusing on being best at witch spells (debuffs, curses, enchantments, emergency blasting etc) and have my less good druid spells for terrain management, utility, buffing etc.
If someone shows me a reason it would be better to focus on druid spells that could change at any time though.
@ Cap. Darling
I really don't want to put off entering Mystic Theurge so unless somebody shows me something super cool you can do with it wild shaping will be a late game thing if it happens at all. Still for late game it's definitely something to keep in mind.
@ Samasboy1
I thought the ACG Shaman was going to be an Oracle/Witch Hybrid. Has there been an announcement I missed? If there is a Druid/Witch Hybrid class coming then I'll shelve this character till it's available and see if it gives me what I want. Even as an Oracle/Witch hybrid the Shaman still might give me what I want but for now I want to try with what's available.
3.5 Material is met with suspicion but not outright banned. I might be able to use it but again it's whim of the DM. Interesting reading though.
I may be missing something but I don't see how green faith acolyte after MT is any better than simply adding more druid levels after MT. Please elaborate.
@ everyone
Again, thanks to all for taking the time to consider and advise. Much appreciated. Keep any new ideas that might pop into your head coming.
- Torger
Arrrrrg, that's what I get for posting from memory. But depending on how much Oracle is in it (Nature Mystery) it could still work. Guess we will have to wait and see.
@ rat_ bastard
I feel like the SR bonus that elves get make them at bare minimum a hard green/soft blue as a race contender. Especialy when you consider their stat modifiers are one very good +2 (INT), one very bad -2 (CON) and one good +2 (DEX) which to me is net gain in the stats department.
I'm playing a samsaran in our current game so while I recognize how good they are mechanically I probably won't go here.
SLAs as prestige class prereqs doesn't fly at our table so Teiflings/Assimar are green at best.
I'll probably be focusing on being best at witch spells (debuffs, curses, enchantments, emergency blasting etc) and have my less good druid spells for terrain management, utility, buffing etc.
If someone shows me a reason it would be better to focus on druid spells that could change at any time though.
The main reason I can think of to lead druid is if you are going for a "Faster Mr Snuggles! Kill Kill!" build where you are investing in the full animal companion. In that build your ability to buff your pet is more important than your ability to debuff your opponents and witches kinda suck at that IIRC.
The main reason I can think of to lead druid is if you are going for a "Faster Mr Snuggles! Kill Kill!" build where you are investing in the full animal companion. In that build your ability to buff your pet is more important than your ability to debuff your opponents and witches kinda suck at that IIRC.
I feel like the big animal companion buff spell is animal growth which as a 5th level druid spell I'll get access to with any build. Are there higher level druid, animal companion buffs I'm failing to consider? I suppose greater magic fang won't scale as well and that's something to think about.
Still I feel like most of the good witch spells out there are save spells. That's my main rationale for going primary witch.
- Torger
Here's what I'm thinking so far
Menhir Savant/Hedge Witch/Mystic Theurge 3/7/10
Human
Abilities (25 point buy)
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 18
WIS 16
CHA 10
Domain: Wind sub domain
Patron: Contenders are Agility, Boundaries, Time & Trickery
Familiar: Modified Pipe Fox (If my DM is generous and he probably will be)
Animal Companion @5th: Bear, Panda
Hexes
W1: Healing
W2: Flight
W4: Traded for spontaneous cure spells
W6: ??? I dunno, Feral Speech, Tounges maybe
Feats
H: ???
1st: ???
3rd: Nature Soul
5th: Animal Ally
7th: Boon Companion
9th: ???
11th: ???
13th: Quicken Spell
15th: ???
17th: ???
19th: ???
Feats I'm Considering
- Spell Penetration
- Greater Spell Penetration
- Toughness
- Craft Wondrous Item (later game)
- Spell Focus Conjuration
- Augment Summoning
- Superior Summoning
- Spell Focus Necromancy
- Greater Spell Focus Necromancy
- Improved Initiative
- Improved Familiar
I realize there are some obvious places where I can optimize more but *shrug*
Thoughts welcome.
- Torger
The main reason I can think of to lead druid is if you are going for a "Faster Mr Snuggles! Kill Kill!" build where you are investing in the full animal companion. In that build your ability to buff your pet is more important than your ability to debuff your opponents and witches kinda suck at that IIRC.I feel like the big animal companion buff spell is animal growth which as a 5th level druid spell I'll get access to with any build. Are there higher level druid, animal companion buffs I'm failing to consider? I suppose greater magic fang won't scale as well and that's something to think about.
Still I feel like most of the good witch spells out there are save spells. That's my main rationale for going primary witch.
- Torger
I like aspect of the bear with a wolf companion for its boosting of AC and CMB, that makes the tripping bite ability that much more awesome and makes the martials happier.
Also I would not make plans based on your 5th level spells, make them based on your 1st-3rd level spells because 5th level is a loooooong way down the road.
I like aspect of the bear with a wolf companion for its boosting of AC and CMB, that makes the tripping bite ability that much more awesome and makes the martials happier.
Also I would not make plans based on your 5th level spells, make them based on your 1st-3rd level spells because 5th level is a loooooong way down the road.
Funny that aspect of the Bear isn't nearly as good when cast on a bear animal companion :(
I would argue that by the time I'm deciding weather or not to fill out my levels with more witch levels or more druid levels it will already be late game.
- Torger
Not to try to be a jerk, but without the SLA ability the prestige class is pretty gimped add into it that you're pulling just spell casting from 2 classes chock full of awesome class features that don't work or wont scale. My question is what exactly do you want this character to do because in my opinion the Witch is already a pretty kick ass mystic theurge all on its own without picking up prestige classes that'll end up gimping your character. I say just play a witch or druid and flavor them as if they had the other classes fluff(if that's what you're after) if on the other hand you are bound and determined pick up magical knack, beg your GM to allow esoteric training from the guild rules(which I'm thinking will be a no go given the SLA comment) or just recognize that you chose to be underpowered. You wont even be able to do the only thing that the traditional cleric/wiz theurge had going for it and excel at buff/support. The witch spells are mainly debuff with control and druid spells are mainly control(especially at low level). Control is going to be difficult with 2 casting stats. Maybe play a half orc scarred witch doctor so that con does all the witch heavy lifting. All I can say is good luck.I'm well aware of all the downsides as I mentioned in my first post. I'm under no illusions that this build could ever be anything close to optimal. I'm ok with that.
As for what I'm trying to accomplish witches have a lot of cursey necromancy that druids don't have. Druids have animal/plant nature magic that witches don't have. I very much want both spell lists.
I don't know what esoteric training or "guild rules" are. I can't find them on the SRD. Where do they come from?
- Torger
If you just want the concept of the the nature-necromancy-curse spell caster, you may want to skip the whole witch mystic theurge thing and take shade of the uskwood. You sacrifice fire but i think you get what you want
If you just want the concept of the the nature-necromancy-curse spell caster, you may want to skip the whole witch mystic theurge thing and take shade of the uskwood. You sacrifice fire but i think you get what you want
Interesting. That would indeed accomplish a lot of what I want. Losing fire spells forever is a non issue for this character. I would have to get GM permission to waive the Neutral Evil and Evil Deity requirements though. Those would be a deal breaker for me.
Still, very interesting.
- Torger
Menhir Savant is amazing.
I actually created a druid/witch/mystic theurge mad winter and storm calling hermit npc for one of my games, can't remember where I put his character details though.
It might not fit your theme but an option I quite liked for my witch levels is the Winter Witch. The boost to save DC of all your cold spells (and touch spells with frozen caress) made splitting the casting stat focus a bit less painful, and would affect your druid spells too, as far as I can see.
Winter Witch would certainly be a good choice. Probably not for this character but in general it would be a good way to go.
- Torger
Also wanted to mention, while the air subdomain is a really good find in terms of 1st level powers, what always makes me decide with regards domains is the spells it gives access to. If you're set on menhir savant then it's a really good choice but the animal shaman or terrain druid archetypes can give some nice domain spell access too. One that springs to mind is the Bat Shaman lets you choose the Trickery or Deception domains, giving you invisibility or mirror image, for example. Also a few minutes of blindsense. Death, Darkness and Destruction domains can be gained through Blight druid (admittedly doesn't give you much else as an archetype for just 3 levels, but fits thematically?) and a couple of the shamans give some of them too. Protection domain (spell immunity, spell resistance, especially nice if you're allowed take the defence subdomain for a support oriented character) can be gained through boar I think, and travel domain (fly, dimension door, stuff like that) through wolf.
Didn't realize that there were druid archetypes that altered your domain access. It'll be hard to beat out menhir savant but It's certainly worth a look. Thanks for the heads up.
- Torger
Also wanted to mention, while the air subdomain is a really good find in terms of 1st level powers, what always makes me decide with regards domains is the spells it gives access to. If you're set on menhir savant then it's a really good choice but the animal shaman or terrain druid archetypes can give some nice domain spell access too. One that springs to mind is the Bat Shaman lets you choose the Trickery or Deception domains, giving you invisibility or mirror image, for example. Also a few minutes of blindsense. Death, Darkness and Destruction domains can be gained through Blight druid (admittedly doesn't give you much else as an archetype for just 3 levels, but fits thematically?) and a couple of the shamans give some of them too. Protection domain (spell immunity, spell resistance, especially nice if you're allowed take the defence subdomain for a support oriented character) can be gained through boar I think, and travel domain (fly, dimension door, stuff like that) through wolf.Didn't realize that there were druid archetypes that altered your domain access. It'll be hard to beat out menhir savant but It's certainly worth a look. Thanks for the heads up.
- Torger
I'm now giving Urban Druid a hard look, specifically for access to the Knowledge and Nobility Domains.
Knowledge would give me one of the things this character is lacking that I really wanted, some solid divination magic and Nobility (in particular the Leadership subdomain) would give me some fairly useful party buffs.
And most importantly they trade out spontaneous SNA casting which I really don't see myself as using that much. Of course it trades out for spontaneous domain casting, I'll already have one of each domain spell prepped/day. Not sure how many of them are 2 or more/day type spells.
Also of interest is Tempest Druid which would get me spontaneous casting of the wind domain and 5 points of electricity resistance. Not much but for three levels not too bad.
Hmmm decisions, decisions.
- Torger
One last thread bump before I lock in this character.
- Torger
you talk to your gm about letting your witch cast off wis? it seems minor but this the perfect situation to take advantage of this.
you talk to your gm about letting your witch cast off wis? it seems minor but this the perfect situation to take advantage of this.
Not going to happen.
The arguments for and against this change are worthy of a discussion of their own discussion but it won't be implemented in this game.
- Torger
@Torger: I'd look to Kirthfinder for making a character like this work. You might be able to get your GM to allow the modifications needed to make it work. Otherwise, I don't see it working very well in vanilla Pathfinder.
Another option if 3pp products are allowed is Super Genius Game's Feats of Multiclassing. A number of the feats in that product have been designed to do exactly what you appear to be trying to do. They were created by Owen K. Stephens as an extension of the idea in the Eldritch Heritage and Amateur Gunslinger line of feats (also created by Owen K. Stephens) from Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic.
I'm not really looking to rewrite rules in order to make this character. Even just taking chunks of a full system overhaul like Kirthfinder isn't what I have in mind and probably not something the DM would be interested in.
Feats of Multiclassing sounds neat but I'm left with the standard 3pp dilemma of do I want to spend money on a product that the DM may or may not allow.
Either way I appreciate the input.
- Torger
Multiclass Feats Sneak Peak
I appreciate the preview and see the general theme of the feats. They could indeed be useful.
Thanks
- Torger