Who is the fairest of them all?


Advice

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Zhayne wrote:
So, they're both the prettiest. Or the ugliest, depending on who you talk to.

If you ask me however, you'll learn it doesn't matter which one among the two is prettier. Everyone knows I am the prettiest.


You could make it a skill roll.

Use ranks in
disguise, or perform, or profession (doxy), or maybe even bluff.....hell you get a +5 on bluff if the target is drunk or impaired.


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Girls! Girls! You're both pretty!


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Have them both compare their appearances to someone famous, then like the group vote on who they like better. Or make them both find pictures they think best represents their characters and have the group vote. Or nobody should care about this ever.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ugly people become famous all the time, and afterwards, many insist that they beautiful, when before, they found them repulsive.


Charisma can mean a lot of things, and it's ultimately decided by dice*. Appearance is decided by the player. Now, I might question it if a character wants to be crazy attractive with 5 Charisma representing her "shyness", but if they can justify it, I'll let it slide.

Just keep in mind that Charisma isn't just force of personality. Shyness alone won't suffice. If you have a 5 Charisma, your friends should not see you as a loveable waif. They can see you as attractive, sure, and maybe there's not even a smell or a shrill voice. You can be, by all general rules, gorgeous. But to represent the low score, they will think you're mentally disabled, or utterly useless, or even untrustworthy. They will see you as unreliable, and your enemies as a weak link. They will not respect you.

*Don't tell me you use Point Buy. No derailing my point with facts.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Different cultures view beauty differently as well.

In one place, one might be considered beautiful, and in another place, be considered ugly.


Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.
Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.


In Pathfinder people are not attractive, they are charming.

A small rule change to allow taking that particular Trait more than once would help settle who is the most charming.


Captain K. wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:

Page 17 of Core:

"Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."

(Emphasis mine.)

Doesn't anybody around here ever actually READ the rulebooks?

Precisely. People choose to ignore it because they want their characters to dump CHA but still have good-looking characters, just with 'shyness' or some other nonsense.

Nope. The guy is u.g.l.y., you ain't got no alibi.

And come on. We all know what a girl with a 'nice personality' means, don't we?

People ignore that language becase it's as blatantly false as the claim that "monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils"

If charisma were effected by appearance it would be altered by polymorph spells.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
dave.gillam wrote:

Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.

Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.

Some people find a well defined and muscular woman quite beautiful.

Also, she may be highly sought after in her community of Orcs, as they may favor her physical qualities, finding them the truest measure of beauty.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
dave.gillam wrote:

Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.

Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.

Some people find a well defined and muscular woman quite beautiful.

Also, she may be highly sought after in her community of Orcs, as they may favor her physical qualities, finding them the truest measure of beauty.

While thast is certainly true, Ive found a different argument.

Olga the orc princess says:

Bards and druids like to claim, "war doesnt settle who's right. It settles who's left."

Basic logic says: if no one is around to disagree, then Im right.

As true gentleman I would never dream of arguing with a lady of her stature

lol


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dave.gillam wrote:

Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.

Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.

Pretends to disagree

bluff 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (11) + 3 = 14 + action point 2d6 ⇒ (1, 6) = 7


Go compose another dirge, fire priest.


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Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:
Count how many mattresses can still feel pea underneath. Add bedpost notches.

That'd be what, a low Fort save?


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Charisma is NOT the measure of beauty despite Captain K's claim. If it was, then a Balor (Charisma 27) would be the epitome of beauty. Anyway, the real way to find out which princess is the prettier is a bit more complex. What are the cultural standards of beauty in the area? What kind of personalities do the two ladies have? Are there any scandals involving either of them that could have damaged their image? Does either one of them have the Charming trait?


Poldaran wrote:
Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote:
Count how many mattresses can still feel pea underneath. Add bedpost notches.
That'd be what, a low Fort save?

That certainly brings up a point. What standards are we working off here? While modern society favors physically fit and healthy individuals, some of the favored features of past eras leaned towards frailty (at least for the nobility...who are the only ones people tended to write about).

Pale skin, tender hands, and fainting were all favored only because they could only work in a bourgeoisie environment, where being weak was ok since you never had to really work. Heck, in the 19th century Arsenic (yes, the key ingredient in rat poison) was considered a beauty product.

But this might not entirely work in the typical fantasy setting, since just about everyone here gets a chance at being heroic. So maybe some more female empowerment since they can be taken seriously as warriors? Who knows.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is generally only solved by asking a magic mirror, requiring a DC 20 Perform (Oratory) check.


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Once again, the Book of Erotic Fantasy comes to the rescue! The BoEF adds a seventh attribute just for attractiveness. At character creation, just roll an extra set of dice or add 3 points (the equivalent of a 13) to your point buy. Disguise becomes Appearance based, and bluff, diplomacy and intimidate share Appearance and Charisma by GM discretion.

If you're starting a new game, problem solved! If you're mid-game, give your characters the option of revisiting their ability scores. If you rolled, they just roll again. If you went point buy, add 3 to the amount of points they spent on Charisma, then let them re-spend that many points on Charisma and Appearance.

Surely this is the solution is the least ham handed and the least awkward for everybody.

Surely.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There is also a racial difference.

What is beautiful to a Dwarf, may be hideous to an Elf.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

There is also a racial difference.

What is beautiful to a Dwarf, may be hideous to an Elf.

nonsense everybody love a bigboned short Girl with generous Sideburns. ;)

Silver Crusade

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As has been stated again and again, you can't quantify beauty.

Case in point: Take all of the iconics. If you listed them in the order of most beautiful to least in your eyes, I guarantee we wouldn't be able to get a majority of poster's lists to line up.

Beauty is best left in the eyes of the beholders and the players and GMs who play them. I mean, I know I'd be put off by a GM telling me my Shoanti barbarian finds the pampered Taldan lady in thick makeup more beautiful than the bald Amazonian lady or my dwarf finding the drow Nocticula priestess more attractive than the blacksmith next door because of some Prettiness stat.

It just rings false.


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Mikaze wrote:
Beauty is best left in the eyes of the beholders

But.. but... Pathfinder isn't allowed to have Beholders! :)

Silver Crusade

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Matt Thomason wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Beauty is best left in the eyes of the beholders
But.. but... Pathfinder isn't allowed to have Beholders! :)

LOVE IS OVER


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As humans, we tend to find someone attractive in the first five minutes based on appearance (muscle tone, grace, health). After that, it's how well they stimulate us mentally (conversation, common sense, and personality).

Theoretically, this is why in beauty contests we multiple stages. We get to see muscle tone (swimsuit), grace (walking the stage), and health (swimsuit). Then we listen to them talk, answer questions, and communicate (intelligence, wisdom, charisma).

This is why someone who is physically perhaps not as attractive as someone else can win the contest, and why sometimes you find someone attractive at first but lose interest (or vice versa).

So, honestly, the three physical stats plus charisma averaged together gives a good 'first sight' number for attractiveness. The charisma includes confidence and bearing, which are important in 'first sight' attractiveness.

Then, average all the stats for an 'overall' attractiveness. As humans, the farther out on the bell curve (on the positive side) you are, generally, the more attractive you are. It's genetics. We want our children to be superior, and superior people make superior kids, so we are attracted to what we perceive as superior genetics. Even if we don't think of it that way. By the same token, someone with a superhuman strength but below 10's in all other stats comes off as a hulking brute and most are not attracted to them for that reason, inferior genetics.


Icyshadow wrote:
Charisma is NOT the measure of beauty despite Captain K's claim. If it was, then a Balor (Charisma 27) would be the epitome of beauty.

Not only the balor. The hags would be quite beautiful, too.

For example this one
And lots of other ugly creatures have a high charisma, too.
Some of the iconics on the other hand look quite good but have low cha scores.

Icyshadow wrote:
Anyway, the real way to find out which princess is the prettier is a bit more complex. What are the cultural standards of beauty in the area? What kind of personalities do the two ladies have? Are there any scandals involving either of them that could have damaged their image? Does either one of them have the Charming trait?

Good points.

I liked the idea to choose a celebrity for both and have the players decide which celebrity looks better.


Ask a speaking magic mirror http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-pDpLVVNc . For some reasons those seem to be the unquestionable authorities on beauty in fantasy worlds.

--------------------------------------------------------

Why not have a beauty contest in some big city? They have to compete with a bunch of NPCs in several challenges tied to different skill checks to become Miss Golarion.


Which beauty are we talking about here? And what kind of princess? We could be trying to judge the fairest of the Adventure Time princesses (of course it would be slime princess) but we might also be talking about the Disney princesses, in which case the one who comes closest to Snow White b/cause, well... the mirror said so.

There is no stat for pretty, b/cause you can't quantify it and it changes ALL the time. Why do you think there's so many DIFFERENT sites on the web that your company's firewall blocks?

As far as charisma goes, it has been well established that you can slap makeup on a pig and they can still be a big star in RL. Therefore charisma is strictly the personality trait. Quasimodo had a wonderful singing voice and got the gypsy girl to love him just by being nice; conversely there are supermodels who will embed a cel phone in you skull just to inform you that you screwed up their latte order.

If there's ANY shred of truth to the OP (and I suspect no, but whatev) then judge the players. Look at them, study their faces and bodies and try to determine which of them you find the most attractive. Tell them your judgments in graphic detail. Perhaps give them a swimsuit competition and be sure to make them wear high heels. Their reward is a kiss from you and the official title of Fairest of them All.

...then Mad Queen Mabbe (BBEG from my own homebrew of Karnoss) sends a cadre of her Dark Folk lackeys to steal the princess to wear her like a gown...


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While obviously individual tastes vary, cultural beauty standards are not actually all over the place as people seem to think. All beauty standards from all errors are based on one thing: wealth.

In the early 1900s for example, pale, unmuscled people were favored, because poor people worked manual labor jobs outside--only the rich worked office jobs. Now, everyone works office jobs, so people favor tanned, muscley people, since only the rich can afford to go outside/go tanning/go to a gym.

The same is true of the past--people liked frail, fainting nobles because only nobles could afford to do that crap. Poor women had to work hard. Ever heard of Rubenesque women? Yeah, because only rich people could afford to get fat--nobody else had enough and they had to work too hard to let the pounds build up.

Even in "barbarian cultures" that people are bringing up, where they like big, powerful women, that's because they are the ones strong enough to hold onto wealth in a system where you only keep what you can hold.

It all comes down to wealth, again and again.

So, the short answer is, who has the most money? Who looks like they have the most money? There's your answer.

Dark Archive

Claxon wrote:
Mirror mirror on the wall...

Claxon got it right there.

The term fairest of them all was made popular by the storybooks. Most specifically Snow White. The main antagonist of the story had zero personality what so ever on the good scale. Yet she was beautiful beyond belief. Only one person was more so. Snow White, whose charm also equalled her beauty.

In all of the stories, though, "fairest" referred to looks. Looks are defined by charisma.

The constitution argument is a good one, yet many a princess was defined as having a delicate stomach, and needing a super fluffy bed to sleep. Woe to the one who put the pea under her mattress. I would submit that the constitution of these fair princesses was all poor. In fact Snow White failed her Fortitude save when she bit into the apple.

Dark Archive

dave.gillam wrote:

Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.

Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.

Shouldn't this read," You won't after she beats you ugly!"


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

Looks are defined by charisma.

Sigh.

Dark Archive

littlehewy wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

Looks are defined by charisma.

Sigh.

Many of you disagree, but the book even states it in the block for charisma. We are playing pathfinder. So you use its definitions.


Did you not read my post involving the Balor?

Dark Archive

Yes and the charisma stat also defines force of personality.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

Yes and the charisma stat also defines force of personality.

So, pretty sure the Balor is not drop dead gorgeous. You should write the designers and educate them on the definitions of Pathfinder.


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The entry on Charisma says 'appearance'. High Charisma means you have an impressive appearance. Whether or not you define that as 'pretty', 'imposing', 'scary' or 'hideous' is up to the PC (or GM) to decide.

Balors are not pretty. Balors are imposing and scary, and their CHA of 27 shows they're very good at being imposing and scary.

Dark Archive

The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.

One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.

ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.

Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.

ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.

Manipulative girl

ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."

We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.

One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.

ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.

Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.

ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.

Manipulative girl

ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."

We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.

Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.

Dark Archive

littlehewy wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.

One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.

ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.

Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.

ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.

Manipulative girl

ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."

We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.

Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.

Obviously your purposely trying to look at what people write. I specifically wrote about a beautiful stupid girl who is also able to get her needs met, not by any factor except by her looks.

I am trying to not be a jerk, don't be one yourself.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
littlehewy wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.

One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.

ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.

Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.

ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.

Manipulative girl

ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."

We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.

Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.

Obviously your purposely trying to look at what people write. I specifically wrote about a beautiful stupid girl who is also able to get her needs met, not by any factor except by her looks.

I am trying to not be a jerk, don't be one yourself.

Huh? You just wrote about how a high Cha didn't necessarily mean beauty, that it could mean other things. I point that out and you call me a jerk?

Cheers bro, catch you later.

Dark Archive

littlehewy wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
littlehewy wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:

The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.

One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.

ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.

Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.

ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.

Manipulative girl

ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."

We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.

Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.

Obviously your purposely trying to look at what people write. I specifically wrote about a beautiful stupid girl who is also able to get her needs met, not by any factor except by her looks.

I am trying to not be a jerk, don't be one yourself.

Huh? You just wrote about how a high Cha didn't necessarily mean beauty, that it could mean other things. I point that out and you call me a jerk?

Cheers bro, catch you later.

No you point out that it Isn't a metric for beauty. I state it isn't just for beauty. Very big difference.


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The premise that Cha can count for beauty but also for other things to the exclusion of beauty predicates on the idea that the beauty is generating the high Cha score rather than the high Cha score generating the effect of the beauty. A Bard who is in no manner physically imposing can have Cha through the roof, Skill Focus (Intimidate), maximally trained Intimidate skill, and maybe a variety of other bonuses. He's not physically imposing and maybe not even all that smart, but he has force of personality and, while you don't know exactly why, the fact that his Intimidate check just beat your DC by umpteen billion means that you are experiencing s$%~-spewing terror at the thought of what he will do to you if you don't comply with his wishes. It's the Charisma that makes him intimidating, not physical prescience, not ugliness, not beauty, not actual violence or even the threat of it. He could sit across the table and just stare at you dead-pan until you sweat profusely and confess all your secrets just because he's so unnerving. By the same token, a big, burly Barbarian with dumped Cha (and maybe even racial penalty to boot) but with muscles that seem to have muscles of their own who can successfully grapple an Adult Dragon who put no training in and has a severe penalty to Cha may very well be unsuccessful at convincing you that cooperating will save you a world of hurt because he doesn't have the force of personality to back it up; thoughts start running through your head of ways to get out of the situation, he's not as strong as he looks, whatever. You could have identical twin girls, one of which has Charisma out the wazoo and the other with dumped charisma; they both look exactly the same, but everyone likes the high Cha princess and considers her the most attractive person in the world while the other one, looking exactly the same... well, she's nice to look at, but people don't exactly jump merely at her delicate sigh to offer her fruits and fine wines and to massage her feet. They may do that because someone else threatened them to... but not because of any doings of the low-Cha princess.

Moreover, the mere fact that there can be options for Charisma to represent something other than beauty means that it cannot be reliably used as a metric for quality of appearance; only quantity. If a Balor and a Solar stood next to each other in a beauty contest, and you based on relative Charisma, the Balor's 27 Cha would beat out the Solar's paltry 25 because, again, Charisma doesn't denote the quality of your appearance but the quantity of it. The Balor's appearance is more forceful than the Solar's so, while the Balor is imposingly dangerous and the Solar is imposingly, divinely beautiful, the Balor can leverage his dangerous appearance to greater effect than the Solar can leverage his divinely beautiful appearance. In fact, a mortal may even be put off by the strange, alien beauty of the Solar with its metallic skin, 9 foot stature, and 3 pairs of wings and would be more likely to find a Human Princess more attractive (or possibly an Elf if he's the eclectic sort). Furthermore, there's no shortage of people who may find themselves attracted to the exotic looks of the female Dwarf or Orc or what-not. Moreover, the Orc may consider a Human female a worth-while lay while he's busy pillaging her village whereas an Elf girl, he'd be revolted by; and none of them hold a candle to a fine, strong Orc Woman because real women have biceps... ON THEIR BICEPS!

To further illustrate the point, have you ever watched the movie Dogma? Remember when Metatron was explaining why he, "The Voice of God" was necessary?

Spoiler:
Human beings have neither the aural nor the psychological capacity to withstand the awesome power of God's true voice. Were you to hear it, your mind would cave in and your heart would explode within your chest. We went through five Adams before we figured that one out.

That's basically the result of God's Diplomacy check beating the DC by several hundred thousand points. The effect would be the same for an Intimidate check, the only difference being whether you die in glorious rapture or s&@*-spewing terror. Beauty is a matter of the Quality of your appearance which is highly subjective. Charisma is a measure of the Quantity of your appearance, force of personality, and other listed things and far more objective of a measure.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

beauty needs some one to appreciate it. so a contest of some sort. a Suitor, jinn, or minor god becomes interested in them both, but cant decide between them. the one it chooses wins.


Personally, I say people can run a character how they want and make them look how they want. It doesn't ruin my game if they are more or less beautiful than their charisma suggest or if they have a particular personality. In the end their rolls will reflect them anyway, so may as well let people have their cake and eat it too(I think that's the saying, not keen on these phrases). If two people get into an argument over who's the prettiest it likely won't be resolved unless it becomes a major issue or a plot point, but its something to talk about and at least a little entertaining.

Besides, no matter how pretty their character is I know deep down inside, I'm the prettiest one in the room.

Scarab Sages

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Two players argue about which of their princesses is the prettiest.

Charisma is not attractiveness, but should it be the decider when there's an argument?

Don't bring Comeliness into this. Please god no.

Depends: are the two players daughters of regular players at the table? If so, then it's based on the average of INT and WIS and CHA. And the stupid prince can go kiss the other 3rd girl, but she is jealous of the two princesses and to try to be like them she spends him into the poorhouse and they live unhappily ever after.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
No you point out that it Isn't a metric for beauty. I state it isn't just for beauty. Very big difference.

You're right. I'm a total jerk.

Kazaan wrote:

Coherent, intelligible stuff, such as:

"Beauty is a matter of the Quality of your appearance which is highly subjective. Charisma is a measure of the Quantity of your appearance, force of personality, and other listed things and far more objective of a measure."

Right on.


If charisma is appearance and we have a character who is both ugly and has a high charisma then charisma high charisma obviously cannot be a determining factor in their appearance.

Evidence so provided: Hags, balors.


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Ganryu wrote:

If charisma is appearance and we have a character who is both ugly and has a high charisma then charisma high charisma obviously cannot be a determining factor in their appearance.

Evidence so provided: Hags, balors.

As I showed above, Charisma is a factor in determining their appearance, but only the Quantity thereof. It doesn't say whether they're beautiful, ugly, or anything in between, just that whatever they are, they've got a lot of it. In other words, Charisma is a measure of your appearance, among other things, but Appearance and Beauty are two distinct and different topics.


Lurk3r wrote:

Once again, the Book of Erotic Fantasy comes to the rescue! The BoEF adds a seventh attribute just for attractiveness. At character creation, just roll an extra set of dice or add 3 points (the equivalent of a 13) to your point buy. Disguise becomes Appearance based, and bluff, diplomacy and intimidate share Appearance and Charisma by GM discretion.

If you're starting a new game, problem solved! If you're mid-game, give your characters the option of revisiting their ability scores. If you rolled, they just roll again. If you went point buy, add 3 to the amount of points they spent on Charisma, then let them re-spend that many points on Charisma and Appearance.

Surely this is the solution is the least ham handed and the least awkward for everybody.

Surely.

I refuse to believe that anything that comes out of a book called 'The Book of Erotic Fantasy' isn't extremely awkward.

Appearance is purely a fluff/flavor thing and should not, in any way, be dealt with mechanically.

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