Greetings,
I play a summoner in a campaing (AP) with a bunch of friends. The group has a whole decided to get together after several years of not playing. And as far as all players are veteran from the Ad&d era, none of them are munchkins are optimization fanatics. As such, most do suboptimal choices from a mechanical point of view, and a lot of emphasis is put on role play. Just a bunch of friends getting together to slay goblins really.
The problem encountered is inherent to the summoner class. Or more specifically, to it's eidolon class feature. Looking through the various forum posts to actually get a grip of what are the do's and don'ts for this complexe class, I realized that properly built, an eidolon is not really OP compared to other melee classes that optimize. Here lies the problem, we don't optimize, and as such, there are very obvious options to get the eidolon a head start in power, and it seemed rather disturbing to most other players. DM in particular.
So the rule so far has been to reduce the cap number of the eidolon's natural attacks by 1. So 2 attacks max at level 1, and so on. While it does bring the Eidolon in line with a confortable power level for our group, I am looking for a more suited modification to the class feature.
For me, an option would be to actually limit the number of attacks that can be made as primary attacks on the Eidolon. I don't understand why they implemented so many ways to easily augment your eidolon with primary attacks, there is NO mechanical advantage to grant it secondary attacks, as the evolution point costs are only margianlly lower (not in all cases even).
Something like : Keep the table for maximum number of natural attacks, but of those attacks, only half (rounded up) can be considered primary. This clause overrides an attack evolution that would otherwise specify the attack to be primary.
So you would still be able to flesh out your eidolon the way you want (taking only primary attacks evolutions because that's the way you want your eidolon to look), but limit the overall power. This also adds the benefit of making the free multiattack feat at level 9 a bonus rather than an useless free feat.
Exemple :
@ level 1 biped with bite evo has 3 attacks, 2 primary claws + secondary bite
@ level 4 you can have 4 arms with 2 primary claws and 2 secondary claws.
@ level 9 you can have 2 claws primary, bite primary, 2 claws secondary. Or tentacles/wing buffet whatever for those secondaries.
Why didn't the designer add a maximum number of primary attacks to the eidolon's progression ?
Thoughts?
The summoner is regarded by some as having the highest skill floor, or requiring the least effort to build to a competent level.
Are you asking for tips to keep an optimized eidolon from outshining un-optimized melee PCs, or just wondering why the class is the way it is?
Well...
As noted I fully understand the ease with which the eidolon can be optimized to overshadow casual melee builds. The proposed cap on primary natural attacks is an attempt at levelling the field, without nerfing the eidolon into oblivion.
I also think that such a cap on primary natural attacks should have been implemented in the class. But that's another debate. So I am essentially asking if the cap on natural attacks (primary) proposed would bring the eidolon in line with martial characters that ain't optimized that much.
Asking for feedback on proposed class alteration. And tips /other ideas if that doesn't seem like a good idea.
I want to build my eidolon in a certain way, and while not pouncing cheese (it's a biped), it seems that every choice i make make it too strong compared to the rest of the melees. And it's a class feature. I just can't convince myself to give it climb/swim/skilled evolutions to lower it's combat capacities. It's supposed to be a melee golem-kind, but like i said all the choices seem to lead to being OP. Hence the proposed solution.
The changes are not really necessary. If there are no mechanical mistakes with the eidolon then its likely being op is a matter of perception. Keep in nind the eidolon does not get max hp at lvl 1 and takes the average at every level.
If you want to avoid being op though I recome d either doing just natural attacks or manufactures not both. That seems to be where issues come in.
There is also nothing stopping you from taking tentacles.
@Mojo
I do value your input but you sort of missed my point. I'll go for an analogy instead of repeating myself.
I'm cooking a chocolate cake. Everyone loves chocolate. Now upon seeing the result, eventhough i followed the recipe, the DM say "wow, that's way too sweet, cut the chocolate chuncks in there, we all have diabetes at this table !".
But I like the chocolate chuncks in my cake. So how could I lower the amount of sugar in there? Maybe limit it to half a cup of refined sugar instead of a full cup like the recipe says? What do you guys think ?
Then you come along and say the cake is fine as-is, just don't add maple syrup on top ? BUT we have diabetes !!
Essentially, I want to know if the average forum crawler here thinks limiting an eidolon to a number of natural attacks -1 (compared to the cap on the table) is equivalent to limiting the number of primary attacks to half (rounded up) on the initial cap.
As far as the eidolon itself, ran as written, the 3 attacks at full bab @ 18 STR at level 1 did make everyone at the table raise an eyebrow (ability increase (STR), bite). Thus the reduced cap on natural attacks enforced so far. Again, we have old school players.
Well...
As noted I fully understand the ease with which the eidolon can be optimized to overshadow casual melee builds. The proposed cap on primary natural attacks is an attempt at levelling the field, without nerfing the eidolon into oblivion.
I also think that such a cap on primary natural attacks should have been implemented in the class. But that's another debate. So I am essentially asking if the cap on natural attacks (primary) proposed would bring the eidolon in line with martial characters that ain't optimized that much.
Asking for feedback on proposed class alteration. And tips /other ideas if that doesn't seem like a good idea.
I want to build my eidolon in a certain way, and while not pouncing cheese (it's a biped), it seems that every choice i make make it too strong compared to the rest of the melees. And it's a class feature. I just can't convince myself to give it climb/swim/skilled evolutions to lower it's combat capacities. It's supposed to be a melee golem-kind, but like i said all the choices seem to lead to being OP. Hence the proposed solution.
I think the best way to handle this is to 'force' some non optimal choices into the eidolon. Basically divide the evolutions into 3 categories. Offense, defense, and Other (some evolutions like Large factor into both). You must spend at least 1/4th of your evolution points rounded down in each of the 3 categories. Problem more or less solved.
@Kolo
That's pretty much how it went for the eidolon at level 2.
Ability increase (STR) - offense
Natural armor - defense
Climb - Other
Could be a way to mitigate the dmg output potential.
Since you're playing the summoner, if you don't want to outshine the other PCs whose players didn't care to optimize, then don't optimize your eidolon either. You aren't obligated to have a melee monster. Give it some skill boosts or magic instead; the skill boosts are useful, and the magic, well, is . . . flavorful?
You already have the tools you need to solve your problem. Use them.
I found the real problem is with the Summon Monster ability. Granted mine is level 13 now but being able to summon d3 "angels" ( forget the name) that can lightning bolt and heal and fly and cast blur at will has really trivialized some encounters. And 7 times a day for 13 minutes each.
I've gone entire sessions with no eidolon at all.
As far as the eidolon itself, ran as written, the 3 attacks at full bab @ 18 STR at level 1 did make everyone at the table raise an eyebrow (ability increase (STR), bite). Thus the reduced cap on natural attacks enforced so far. Again, we have old school players.
That eidolon also has 6 hp and 13 AC. It can blow away the fighter in damage, but to do so it has to stand around full attacking as while being squishier than the wizard.
Sure, that's not the whole story. The summoner himself is still a factor. He can slap Mage Armor or Shield onto the eidolon. He can build it as a biped with Pounce, and blow up enemies before they even get a move. And if the eidolon does bite it, the summoner can just Summon Monster I for 10 rounds 5-8 times a day.
If you want to tone done your own eidolon however, I'm gonna agree with everyone who suggests sub-optimizing a bit. Rather than limit the number of primary attacks, just don't evolve any more for a while. Swap to serpentine form, evolve secondary attacks, pick up some utility evolutions. Between four customizable class skills and +8 bonus evolutions, you could build a solid skill monkey eidolon that still contributes in combat, but doesn't obsolete the rest of your frontline.