I'm a major powergamer, and I introduced my group to Pathfinder.
So no. "Cheese" is a pretty harmless word to us. As long as the character is still being roleplayed and doesn't mess up the other PCs' fun, who cares. Sounds like your group seriously needs to chill out.
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You also missed obvious signs of munchkinism which are making an attack roll, making a damage roll, making a saving throw, making an ability check or making a skill check.
Oh, and playing caster of any sort. That is sooo much cheesssee...
Played in a 3e? game with a guy who's sorcerer (after a prestige class) did untyped fire damage. He said his fire was so hot it would burn even fire elementals and demons. We never let him live it down.
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Cheese.
Munchkin. Min-maxer. Power gamer. Metagamer.
Every community, profession, or hobby develops its own unique derogatory terms, which all hold a particular sting for its own members. In roleplaying, we’ve come up a litany of insults to hurl at other players who aren’t “real” roleplayers.
My group’s gaming sessions are filled with making fun other players—sometimes in good nature, other times as thinly veiled attacks. After a heated exchange with another player last weekend, I thought about how quickly we are to accuse one another of trying to cheese the system.
Here is a quick list of some things in PF that will get you accused of being a cheesy min-maxer:
• Any stat over 16
• Any stat under 12
• Playing a race that gets a stat bonus in your class’s primary stat
• Playing human to get the extra feat
• Playing any non-core race
• Playing a class a race is not traditionally known for
• Picking any feat outside of CRB or APG
• Using any weapon not present in AD&D
• Using a two-handed weapon
• Using any archetype not in APG
• Having an AC over 25
• Summoning anything
• Having a pet and/or familiar
• Using any rule from UC
• Multiclassing (double offense if it’s a dip)That is just a few. Basically, we’re now suspicious that whatever other players are doing, they’re probably trying to cheese something. Also, I think we know that the term itself stings, so we’re quick to sling it around to make a point.
Just wondering—have other groups out there run into the problem where everything comes under the cheese microscope? And, as a gaming community, are we too quick to hurl these derogatory terms at others? Even in fun, it is a good thing to casually accuse someone of being a power gamer?
In short, has everyone gotten a little to free in the use of the c-word?
Eh. That list includes a lot of things I don't usually think of as minmaxing and power gaming. It looks more like a list of things that happened that irritated someone and so they break out the insults; usually very prevalent on the message boards. "He did X! Burn him!!"
I've always been a "decide on your action, then use the rules to determine the effect" person, above "use the rules to help you decide which action will be most effective".
That said, I don't think people who do the latter are doing it wrong, they're just playing a different way to me, a way they enjoy.
I wouldn't care less about anything on that list. I'd be more annoyed if a rules lawyer turned up at my table, though, and started insisting my calls are wrong because it says, right here, in the rulebook that...
So I have my style of game, and I find players that fit that style. I make it clear what type of game it'll be, that I'm looking for people who put the story before the rulebook and the dice. Mostly only that type of player joins, so it works out just fine (some could even minmax their characters - as long as they're putting the story first I probably wouldn't notice, let alone mind.)
Insulting someone for being a powergamer or metagamer would be like insulting someone because they're playing Monopoly or Call of Cthulhu. They're just playing something different to me.
I powergame to ensure my character is who he's meant to be. How am I supposed to roleplay a grizzled mercenary if he's only mediocre in a fight? The idea of powergaming being an either/or with roleplaying is utterly incomprehensible to me, because in my game, the opposite is true. Otherwise, have fun roleplaying your "master wizard" with a 13 Int.
Aside from all that, the key to a fun character is being fun to play both in and out of combat. Otherwise, you're only getting half the game.
I powergame to ensure my character is who he's meant to be. How am I supposed to roleplay a grizzled mercenary if he's only mediocre in a fight? The idea of powergaming being an either/or with roleplaying is utterly incomprehensible to me, because in my game, the opposite is true. Otherwise, have fun roleplaying your "master wizard" with a 13 Int.
I wouldn't even call that powergaming. That's just modelling the character sheet to meet your image of them, and fits more with the roleplaying side of things anyway.
I wouldn't even call that powergaming. That's just modelling the character sheet to meet your image of them, and fits more with the roleplaying side of things anyway.
Making a character powerful is the sole definition of powergaming. You might be thinking of munchkining or the like.
Powergaming can also be really pushed by a dm and a whole lot of pc deaths. I know my powergaming improved over months of a very harsh game.
But powergaming doesn't mean that. In general, powergaming is not used to mean something positive or negative. Just like with roleplaying, there's good powergaming and obnoxious powergaming.
I mean, we're clearly running with different definitions here, but I think my definition is better, so you are clearly Englishing wrong.
I wouldn't even call that powergaming. That's just modelling the character sheet to meet your image of them, and fits more with the roleplaying side of things anyway.Making a character powerful is the sole definition of powergaming. You might be thinking of munchkining or the like.
Maybe - but the topic of the thread was about using derogatory terms to describe a player's playstyle :)
My point was, that as someone who sees the rules as secondary to the story, I don't see a problem with (and actually see the necessity of) ensuring the stats on the character sheet fit the character you're trying to play.
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But powergaming doesn't mean that. In general, powergaming is not used to mean something positive or negative. Just like with roleplaying, there's good powergaming and obnoxious powergaming.
I mean, we're clearly running with different definitions here, but I think my definition is better, so you are clearly Englishing wrong.
Nope, judging by the internet.
Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as (in video games, boardgames, and roleplaying games) storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie. Due to its focus on the letter of the rules over the spirit of the rules, it is often seen as unsporting, un-fun, or unsociable. This behaviour is most often found in games with a wide range of game features, lengthy campaigns or prize tournaments such as role-playing, massively multiplayer or collectible games.
So, what you do is make a powerful character.
I disagree with Wikipedia. I recall several threads on here where people defined powergaming by my rules, so I don't think I'm alone there.
Outrageous.
an abomination for sure
Absolute balderdash.
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Played in a 3e? game with a guy who's sorcerer (after a prestige class) did untyped fire damage. He said his fire was so hot it would burn even fire elementals and demons. We never let him live it down.
This reminds me of a game that I ran at a con years ago. This dude said he had a special ability to gate in a piece of the sun that not only did what was described above, but also obliterated all forms of undead in a 3000' radius.
Yeah I let him play the character and in facy added an encounter so that he could use it, just to see the look on my buddies faces. That day we coined a new phrase Paste eater = beyond all things cheese
Powergaming is more of a social issue.
- If everyone favors that playstyle there isn't an issue
- If the powergamer and non-powergamers behave socially well together then it isn't an issue
When it becomes an issue is when there's:
- An inbalance of play styles
- Social issues resulting from a lack of social awareness, such as, to use an extreme example: "Everyone here is inefficient. Therefore, I will make your characters for you. You'll have more fun that way."*
* True example
That said, because it's a social issue? There's not an easy solution...
...which is what makes it one of DnD's great popcorn topics. It's right up there with alignment discussions or mage versus fighter.
...and that there aren't a set of guidelines for determining it, probably, at a guess, drives absolutely bat-crazy a mindset that tends to enjoy manipulating, exploring the rules and using them in the most efficient, or effective fashion.
My own thoughts are that the mindset that tends to favor powergaming (likely) prefers a set of rules and measurements. Therefore, when giving advice for better social awareness, guidelines may be helpful. For example:
- Do not assume that someone wants advice to improve the efficiency of their character. Instead, make a general offer of assistance to the group: hey guys, DnD is a crunchy game and I'm always willing to help out! If they do ask you for advice, ask them about their goals, first.
...may be more useful, in the end, than "don't do x."
It may be worthwhile to shift the discussion away from: "what powergaming is" and instead focus on guidelines on "making life better around the table."
True story: because he was helpful, kind, and supportive of other players, one of the stronger minmaxers I know was not only welcomed within strong "roleplay only" circles but preferentially invited and that he minmaxed was never really an issue.
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I know a guy that says a 20 Strength barbarian with power attack is one of the weakest builds in the game and only a fool would take it, but playing a sorcerer/oracle going for mystic theruge is the ultimate form of cheese, trying to break the game, and why he completely disallows multiclassing to prevent that type of cheesy obnoxious powergaming behavior.
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I know a guy that says a 20 Strength barbarian with power attack is one of the weakest builds in the game and only a fool would take it, but playing a sorcerer/oracle going for mystic theruge is the ultimate form of cheese, trying to break the game, and why he completely disallows multiclassing to prevent that type of cheesy obnoxious powergaming behavior.For a second, Xzaral, I thought you were a member of my group :)
How do you know I'm not?
::Queue spooky music::
Fighter barb is a great combo. Use those feats well, improve your rage points and you are laughing.
As for powergaming, time and again I've heard it as a negative.
Maybe it's because we are all adults of at least 30 years of age, or because I got lucky....but my group of ten years has never once cared nor had to care about anyone min-maxing a character. In fact the only rebuilds that have ever occurred were characters that turned out too weak and ineffective....usually because the concept sounded fun, but the rules didn't support it well enough.