|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mike (and John) I know I talked to you about this in person at Owlcon last year but now that it looks like the solution you gave me is not going to happen I am going to ask again.
Are we going to see more Tier 1-5 Scenarios?
In all my experience the low tier scenarios are the most popular and easiest to schedule on game days and Season 4 had way too little.
In the past we were promised one per month which did not last long most likely I suspect due to removing 1-7 tier scenarios.
This is what we had for Low tier every season
Season 0 - 13
Season 1 - 15
Season 2 - 11
Season 3 (Lost of Tier 1-7)- 11
Season 4 - Only 6!
Season 5 (So far) - 2 (With only 9 scenarios announced so far)
Mike I really don't want to see a shortage on Low Tier (Tier 3-7 does not count) scenarios like we saw last season.
are we going to see and increase this season?
Developer
|
You're right that there are only two Tier 1–5 scenarios announced so far this season, but I think you're neglecting to note the replayable Tier 1 scenario that we announced today.
Actually, there are plans for something akin to what you're asking about, and I know that it's been a significant point of discussion around the Paizo office since...May or so, and that's just when we started drawing up plans to see how we might address it.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
I'm not sure what you mean. I know you said you don't count 3-7 as low level but they are.
August - Tier 1-5 and 3-7
September - Tier 1-5
October - Tier 3-7
November - Tier 1 and 3-7
Even if you don't count tier 3-7, that's a Tier 1 or 1-5 in 3 of the first 4 months of the season. If you are expecting two tier 1-5 every month, that simply isn't going to happen.
|
Developer
|
You're right that there are only two Tier 1–5 scenarios announced so far this season, but I think you're neglecting to note the replayable Tier 1 scenario that we announced today.Where were these announced?
Well, announced might not be the best word, but we put up the product pages for these scenarios today.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know I can't be the only one in a situation like this: I have 60 unplayed PFS scenarios, and 23 of those are Tier 7-11. After a PbP I'm playing has finished, I have 11 scenarios left with a Tier 1-2, and only have four scenarios unplayed on Tier 3-7 once next month's 3-7 comes out. So any sign of low-to-low-mid scenarios on the horizon is a breath of fresh air for me. Really looking forward to new stuff.
|
|
I Don't count 3-7 because it is not Low Tier, I can't sit new players at those games without giving them 4th level pregens which I don't like doing to New players.
Though the Tier 1 is great, they are hard to schedule due to everyone having to make new characters to play them though they work great for new payers but not regulars.
I am not looking for 2 a month, I don't know where you got that from my post, but I don't want to see like we saw last season only 6.
I would like to at least see us get back to the season 3 amount of having 11 for the season.
My ultimate solution would be to have 3 scenarios come out a month with one of them always being a Tier 1-5 scenario but I don't see that happening.
|
|
Though the Tier 1 is great, they are hard to schedule due to everyone having to make new characters to play them though they work great for new payers but not regulars.
I don't get this...
My ultimate solution would be to have 3 scenarios come out a month with one of them always being a Tier 1-5 scenario but I don't see that happening.
A man can only dream...
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup. I'm with Dragnmoon; 3-7s are NOT low level.
My standard lineup when I announce a game day is 4 tables:
2 x Tier 1-5 (with maybe a 1-7, if I have a lot of newer players)
1 x Tier 3-7 (or 5-9)
1 x Tier 5-9 (or 7-11, if I scheduled a 3-7)
I will fill both 1-5 tables before either of the other tables, and often have a waiting list for both tables, as well. Generally, when I offer a 3-7 table, it is the LAST table to fill.
As a coordinator, I cannot stress how important it is that 1-5s are released every single month. Of course, I've said that before. Multiple times. So many times that, at this point, you're probably tired of hearing me say it, actually, so I'll try to leave it alone after this...
Edit: I've also said before that 3 scenarios per month would solve a ton of problems:
1 x Tier 1-5
1 x Tier 3-7
1 x Tier 5-9 (alternating every other month with a 7-11)
No one wants me to resurrect that thread, though.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agreed with the above - 3-7s are no standin for 1-5s. Players come to PFS because they want to play THEIR character, not a pregen. Given that the average local player plays about one scenario per week, it takes a total of six weeks before a player can qualify for a 3-7. That's a month and a half. Even after that time, this assumes that no experienced players wish to start a new character, and it further assumes that there is no death for the player. 3-7 is a good level range, but they should be printed in place of 7-11s, not in place of 1-5s.
|
|
Though the Tier 1 is great, they are hard to schedule due to everyone having to make new characters to play them though they work great for new payers but not regulars.I don't get this...
Sorry I will clear that up.
Ok, Tier 1 if schedule I don't have to worry about sitting new players at the table a new player always starts at level 1.
For my regulars they can't play their level 2-5's in those scenarios so they have to start another low tier character. Most likely they will never play that PC again or rarely so they won't sign up for the game.
That makes it very Difficult to schedule them on a regular game day.
The best use of Tier 1 Scenarios are at Conventions and on the Side as an always prep scenario just in case I get a huge influx of new players.
Having a Tier 1 on the regular release of scenarios made next month more annoying to schedule.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Having a Tier 1 on the regular release of scenarios made next month more annoying to schedule.
It's part of the regular release of 2 scenarios? )-:
When they had mentioned it, I was under the impression it would be an "add on" to the existing schedule. Sad to see that change.
|
|
Having a Tier 1 on the regular release of scenarios made next month more annoying to schedule.It's part of the regular release of 2 scenarios? )-:
When they had mentioned it, I was under the impression it would be an "add on" to the existing schedule. Sad to see that change.
Unless they are adding a 27th scenario this year...
November releases are
Pathfinder Society Scenario 5-08 – The Confirmation Tier 1
Pathfinder Society Scenario 5-09 – The Traitor’s Lodge Tier 3-7
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
My monthly Saturday lineup is actually 8 tables (four morning and four afternoon). I follow the same pattern I mentioned above. I fill all FOUR 1-x tables before I'm ever in danger of filling any of the other four mid- to high-level tables.
This month I'm even thinking of punting the mid-tier table in favor of a third 1-x table due to how many people I have on the waiting list in the afternoon.
|
|
I am against low level adventures.
I am honestly sick of playing low level characters over and over.
It seems lots of people get sick of their characters and want to start new characters at level 5.
I am VERY excited about the added flavor for the season 4 high level adventures. Now when I got to tell people my character got to eat..
I have everyone one rushing to level their characters to be able to play them.
Because once I hit a mid to high level I start slow playing because thats when the character is most enjoyable. So I will gobble up lots more 5-9s & 7-11s then everything else since I am going slow at that time.
I think you should keep makign the high levels awesome like you are and people should strive to get there.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
No one wants me to resurrect that thread, though.Drogon, yeah I want to apologize about my reply on that thread. I was so sure a solution to your problem was coming soon. Since it did not happen I started another one. I should have just posted in the one you started last time this came up.. ;)
Nah. The last post I made in that thread said something along the line of "I'm not ignoring this and will be back with more thoughts; I'm just busy." But after coming back to it the following week and reading through it I thought it best to just let all that vitriol and anger die.
I have to admit, however, that recent months have made me rethink that stance. I look around at the things going on with WotC and The Sundering (which is awesome, regardless of their error in thinking they can charge that much for OrgPlay), and the fact that Paizo is right back in the post-convention "delay" pattern (having pushed October's releases out to November) and I'm starting to fidget.
|
|
I don't do a lot on the coordination side but I can echo what some other people have said here from a little different angle. After game days we often try to have a smaller group of select people come back to the house to play a private game. It is pretty much impossible to ever find anything but 7-11 that we can make a table for despite us all having characters that can play any tier. I realize my anecdote isn't quite as valuable as game day coordinators dealing with a larger, more random sample size, but it does support their positions about a bit mismatched supply and demand.
|
|
I am against low level adventures.
I am honestly sick of playing low level characters over and over.
It seems lots of people get sick of their characters and want to start new characters at level 5.
THIS. Most classes don't really start coming together until level 5. I personally love playing wizards but the slog from level 1-4 is painful and boring. I have a PFS wizard that I plan on getting to 5 or 6 through GM credit because I refuse to play through those levels when I don't have to.
|
Dragnmoon, I'm a little confused here. You say that you want scenarios you can seat new players at:
I Don't count 3-7 because it is not Low Tier, I can't sit new players at those games without giving them 4th level pregens which I don't like doing to New players.
but if you're talking about new players, there's nothing holding you back from running a Tier 1-5 from an earlier season. Sure the older players might have played it, but they can play a higher tier scenario while the new players enjoy something they haven't seen before. If I'm reading this rightly what you're saying is:
"I want Tier 1-5 scenarios that no-one has played."
This sounds like a function of your player group. I'm guessing there are a whole bunch of people who try out a character concept for 3 or 4 levels, then decide they don't really like it and go to something else. Here in Georgia we have almost the opposite experience. There *are* a few players who do that, but we have a much higher number who take the opposite view of "OK, I've gotta get through the first 6 levels, then my character is really going to shine." New 5-9 (and especially 7-11) scenario offerings tend to fill up as soon as sign-ups open.
Unless you have an incredibly striated player base (6 players came in at a time and they all showed up for every single game), you should be able to put on (say) 2-11 - The Penumbral Accords and get a mix of new players and people who just haven't had a chance to play it yet. Per your count there are 50 scenarios from seasons 0-3 that a level 1 can play.
I did a quick count of all the offerings posted on our boards for the month of October, and came up with 13 Tier 1-5. Six of them are for seasons 0-3. Only two offerings of "The Stolen Heir." Two more "Glass River Rescue" with the balance coming from Season 4.
And yes, you can't please everyone. There will be some people who won't be able to play in the games you post. It happens. Let's call them "GM opportunities."
edit: oh, right, the point. I agree the balance was a little off last year, but there's no need to have the majority of scenarios be Tier 1-5, since accommodating new players can be done by using earlier season scenarios.
|
|
Sure the older players might have played it, but they can play a higher tier scenario while the new players enjoy something they haven't seen before.
That is exactly what happens, which means the lower level games sometimes don't happen because I am short players.
Currently I have 2 many players to schedule only 2 scenarios in the morning, but I don't have enough players to always have at least 3-4 players at a table. That means 1 table sometimes can be short if all the players pile into 2 of the scenarios.
Which they do when I don't put new scenarios on the schedule. Which means I have to send 2 players and a GM home.
Most of the time I can "guilt" players to move to the short table but I can only do that so much before I get push back which I have gotten sometimes.
|
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
I have to admit, however, that recent months have made me rethink that stance. I look around at the things going on with WotC and The Sundering (which is awesome, regardless of their error in thinking they can charge that much for OrgPlay), and the fact that Paizo is right back in the post-convention "delay" pattern (having pushed October's releases out to November) and I'm starting to fidget.
I'm confused by what you mean by being pushed back. We have two scheduled to release Oct 30 and two scheduled to release Nov 27. Nothing has been pushed back as far as I am aware, though I've been on the road alot and maybe I missed something.
|
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
I am not looking for 2 a month, I don't know where you got that from my post, but I don't want to see like we saw last season only 6.
I don't know where you are getting only 6 tier 1-5 scenarios this season. We already have 3 Tier 1 or 1-5 in the first four months. I know John is striving to make sure we have a good amount of tier 1-5 on the schedule this year and having that work out 3 of the first four months should show we are working towards that.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For what it's worth, you could theoretically play the new Tier 1 scenario over 400 times w/o having the exact same adventure (both encounter and story element wise, the idea of it being a Confirmation and the relative location won't change significantly). Of course it hasn't had its final massaging by John yet, so this is subject to change. :)
|
|
I don't know where you are getting only 6 tier 1-5 scenarios this season. We already have 3 Tier 1 or 1-5 in the first four months. I know John is striving to make sure we have a good amount of tier 1-5 on the schedule this year and having that work out 3 of the first four months should show we are working towards that.
Sorry, Mike... You misread my Post.
I said only 6 Tier 1-5 Last season. I hope not to see that again this season.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
The main reason to have more 1-5s is to be sure that veterans can sit at the tables with new players and "show them the ropes." If that can't happen you wind up with one group playing higher tiers, and the newer players playing lower tiers. Eventually, the "old guard" retires their characters and starts playing through lower level tables. Of course, by this point the newer players now have higher level characters and are trying to play all those legendary Rats of Round Mountain adventures they've heard so much about.
Co-mingling with these two groups never happens because there are never enough 1-5s to go around. Worse, if players drop from one group or the other (they move, have kids, get a new job, or whatever) then tables start mis-firing, causing others to leave for greener pastures.
This is a social game. Old guard should be able to play with newbies, and vice versa. It's more fun that way, and better for the community.
1-5s are the glue that holds all this together. I firmly believe that you could not actually publish enough of them to keep up with the demand you would end up creating. But I would be happy with a mere one per month.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
|
For what it's worth, you could theoretically play the new Tier 1 scenario over 400 times w/o having the exact same adventure (both encounter and story element wise, the idea of it being a Confirmation and the relative location won't change significantly). Of course it hasn't had its final massaging by John yet, so this is subject to change. :)
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
I'm confused by what you mean by being pushed back. We have two scheduled to release Oct 30 and two scheduled to release Nov 27. Nothing has been pushed back as far as I am aware, though I've been on the road alot and maybe I missed something.
I have to admit, however, that recent months have made me rethink that stance. I look around at the things going on with WotC and The Sundering (which is awesome, regardless of their error in thinking they can charge that much for OrgPlay), and the fact that Paizo is right back in the post-convention "delay" pattern (having pushed October's releases out to November) and I'm starting to fidget.
Not PFS. The publishing schedule of print products has all been delayed. This delay, of course, is one of the things we discussed in that dead thread, and is something others (not you) said wouldn't be happening anymore.
Edit: I went and checked the products schedule. I misspoke: November's stuff is delayed to December. Sorry about the confusion. I'm still correct about a publishing delay, but it's a different month's worth of stuff.
|
|
I agree Drogon...
One of the problems I was having was that I had the "Old Guard" always playing with each other and the "newbies" playing with each other. This was forming cliques.
I started having problems getting the older players to play with the new players which was causing a shortage of GMs (That is a long story how that happened through this) and players not liking or trusting other players because of the lack of trust or camaraderie.
That was a pain to fix, and there is still some little of it lingering.
|
|
For what it's worth, you could theoretically play the new Tier 1 scenario over 400 times w/o having the exact same adventure (both encounter and story element wise, the idea of it being a Confirmation and the relative location won't change significantly). Of course it hasn't had its final massaging by John yet, so this is subject to change. :)
Well, congrats. You've got me really intrigued by the scenario now. And I only have to wait... 1 1/2 months...
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
For what it's worth, you could theoretically play the new Tier 1 scenario over 400 times w/o having the exact same adventure (both encounter and story element wise, the idea of it being a Confirmation and the relative location won't change significantly). Of course it hasn't had its final massaging by John yet, so this is subject to change. :)Well, congrats. You've got me really intrigued by the scenario now. And I only have to wait... 1 1/2 months...
I am, too. But "don't replay" is a motto we have pushed in PFS forever (and not one I want to change, by the way). It is so ingrained in PFS culture that my players shy away from replaying even when they know they can. Frankly, I think most of them find it dull. If this adventure removes that aspect from possibility, then I'll be very excited to see it, indeed.
|
|
This is a social game. Old guard should be able to play with newbies, and vice versa. It's more fun that way, and better for the community.
1-5s are the glue that holds all this together. I firmly believe that you could not actually publish enough of them to keep up with the demand you would end up creating. But I would be happy with a mere one per month.
From a player/GM standpoint I agree with this. I look forward to being able to play with the newer players and that only happens when the module is a 1-5. The social aspect of this can only happen (when the group is geographically limited, other than Cons) when the adventure is inclusive such as a 1-5 though 3-7 is OK once in a while.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
So am I, then. I have a 1st, two 2nds, a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 13th and 14th.
Know what I don't have? Very many 1-x scenarios I can play with new players. I have less than six left.
And please don't tell me I need to GM more. /-:
Maybe I'm an outlier
I didn't want to say anything...
|
|
Know what I don't have? Very many 1-x scenarios I can play with new players. I have less than six left.
And please don't tell me I need to GM more. /-:
I'll do one worse. You need to replay more.
It's not that you don't have scenarios you can play. You don't have scenarios that you can play for credit. When I run a scenario for a new group and my wife has already played it, if they need an extra player she will play along just for fun. (And yes, I'm often rerunning it for no credit.)
Should you do this all the time? Of course not. But it is an option for you to exercise while you wait for more 1-5s to be released.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Drogon: You obviously need more stars....
Also my apologies, by less than 6 left, you mean before you would have to start re-running ones you had already gm'd before?
I've re-run many a scenario. I can run Frozen Fingers of Midnight without even having the scenario in front of me. Same with Silent Tide and Master of the Fallen Fortress.
And, no, I'm counting my ability to play in ones that I've already run. If I remove ones I've run from my "open to play" list, it numbers 2 scenarios.
Worse, by the way: the six (or 2) scenarios I can play at Tier 1-x are not the same ones that, say, Todd Lower can play. Thus, the two of us will not be sharing a table with the two "new guys" who joined this week. Hopefully, there will be someone else who can, so that between Todd, the two newbies, and that hoped-for someone else, I have a legal table I can run.
Now, I'm being a little over-dramatic, I will admit. My player base is pretty big, and I'm pretty good at scheduling, so the co-mingling I speak of actually happens pretty regularly in my game days. But when there is a dearth of low level scenarios things get very tricky until I can "bank" a few 1-5s over the course of a couple months, like happened recently. If we go a few months with nothing low level being published, like we did this past summer, I lose players due to lack of options and hitting legal table size becomes very difficult.
Edit: Nice ninja move, TOZ. I knew I'd be dinged with the "replay" comment so I was going to throw that into the post, then deleted it because I didn't want that argument. Damn you...
No, I don't want replay. It has a slew of other issues, all of which I have argued about until my fingers bled. I have absolutely no desire to ruin my player base by allowing replay.
|
|
The main reason to have more 1-5s is to be sure that veterans can sit at the tables with new players and "show them the ropes." If that can't happen you wind up with one group playing higher tiers, and the newer players playing lower tiers. Eventually, the "old guard" retires their characters and starts playing through lower level tables. Of course, by this point the newer players now have higher level characters and are trying to play all those legendary Rats of Round Mountain adventures they've heard so much about.
Co-mingling with these two groups never happens because there are never enough 1-5s to go around. Worse, if players drop from one group or the other (they move, have kids, get a new job, or whatever) then tables start mis-firing, causing others to leave for greener pastures.
This is a social game. Old guard should be able to play with newbies, and vice versa. It's more fun that way, and better for the community.
1-5s are the glue that holds all this together. I firmly believe that you could not actually publish enough of them to keep up with the demand you would end up creating. But I would be happy with a mere one per month.
Let me start by saying drogon I respect you and would love to play with you sometime.
But I disagree with this. If people are forming different groups it is not because of the scenario levels, but the personalities of the people.
Now level 1-5s fill up so fast because people make and remake characters instead of leveling up the ones they have. They think oif a newer cooler concept and then start that concept.
if you area has lots of turn over you will also notice the need for many 1-5s.
I am powering level a group of people with modules to get them to level 7 so they can start playing the high end leveled stuff.
I keep talking up the high level stuff, because that is where the fun stuff is.
I have 8 characters and only 2 at 7+. I really get sick of doing 1-5s over and over.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Don't get me wrong, Finlanderboy. I am aware of how fun 7-11 can be, and often watch in amazement as seats are snapped up at that tier by rabid players. On occasion I have even had to add tables of high tier. And it will become more prevalent as the campaign ages.
But, read my last couple posts to see where I stand on all that stuff.
Suffice to say this: PFS is a marketing gig. Paizo uses it to introduce players to their game. It works great at that, too. But part of that introduction is having players who know what they are doing sitting down with those new players. When people like Todd Lower and I can't do this on a regular basis, that aspect dries up and "retaining" all those new players becomes more difficult.
I've been running OrgPlay systems for nearly seven years, now. My store thrives because of them (I am not your typical game store, if you'll allow me to boast, a bit). Please believe me when I tell you that I have seen and tried nearly every method that the various systems and companies have used and introduced.
A further statement: I want to keep players like you happy at the same time I'm making newer players and players like Todd Lower happy. But keeping all these groups happy at the same time requires material. Or a lot of finagling. And I'm almost all out of finagling room after Season 4's lack of 1-x scenarios...
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll jump in to add my support to what Dragnmoon and Drogon have stated above. There's actually no need for me to add anything more, as it's actually uncanny how similar our local Region's experiences have been to theirs.
Tier 1-5 are in serious short supply, frankly I can't believe we're still having this debate. We need one Tier 1-5 every month to remain sustainable, no excuses.
|
Commenting on the difference between tier 1-5 and tier 3-7.
The problem aren't the level 1 characters. You can easily get a new character from level 1 to level 2, as there are those special scenarios for only them to play, even if played before. The problem starts with level 2. Now you cannot replay those previous things, but you're still stuck with only tier 1-5, and those will run out at some point in the worst case. You cannot take them to a tier 3-7 no matter how much you wish for it.
I have only played for an year and a half, and am not running out of scenarios soon, but I know some of the people I play with who started with season 0 and are on their 14th character are going to have trouble with this at some point.
|
|
Which raises another problem - most GMs I know (myself included) now routinely use GM credit to skip past fragile 1st level ... but new players don't get that opportunity. I don't think that's setting a good example - new players lose their characters though their early sessions, but GMs just bypass the inconvenience. What message is that sending to new players about the game that seasoned GMs won't play 1st level?
Actually, I think the first two Tier 1-5 Scenarios of Season 5 are among the best I've played /GMed. Keep these coming please.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
|
In regards to those who are saying that level 1-5 is a bit dull, I agree that it can sometimes be. However, I am not advocating for scenarios based on what I think would be the most enjoyable to play, I am advocating for them based on how likely I think that they will be played. My local store has four tables weekly. We need to run at least two 1-5s to keep afloat. Our third table is often a 3-7, and we can scrape together a single 5-9 or 7-11 on most weeks. The simple fact is that most of our players do not have high enough level characters to participate in higher level adventures. There is no reason to have an equal number of 1-5s and 7-11s, given that 1-5s can be played by new players and old players alike, while for the average player, getting a character to level 7 takes 18 weeks. Any group organizer will tell you that turnover is highest among new members, so the vast majority of the people who come through your doors will never qualify for these adventures.