How do you force manditory encounters with no faction missions?

[FLite]

Some early modules start with the party able to go left or right. If they go left, they get encounter X, if they go right they get encounter Y. Either way they get to point Z where the adventure continues.

Both Y and Z are non optional encounters.

With faction missions, you could rely on the fact that the PCs had to back track and check all the rooms they passed or risk missing prestige. Now without the faction missions, they can do 2/3rds of the mission, and never bother to go back once they finish.

Is that fine? Is that a problem? What about the gold / items they miss if they bypass stuff?

What if they leave something behind them, and then make a lot of noise later on? Does the thing left behind come looking?

[Andreas Forster]

Can you give a specific example for this?

In general, I'd say you shouldn't punish your players if they act like an intelligent character would.
For example, if there are simply two ways to get a hint on where the bad guy's secret hideout is, noone would think about using both ways if the first way was already successful.
On the other hand, when there are two corridors in a dungeon that both lead to the big chamber with the dragon, a greedy PC wouldn't just leave without having explored everything (because every room in a dungeon might contain valuable items).

If there's more than one way to get to a target, check if both ways award treasure to the PCs. If they don't you're perfectly fine with skipping one of the encounters. If they do, be creative and find some way to have the PC get to the second encounter as well.

[Avatar-1]

The characters pretty much always have the option to go back and do things at the end of the scenario. Once the big bad guy (if there is one) at the end is dead, they're not forced to automatically conclude the scenario.

If they never bother to go back and do whatever else that needs doing for the second prestige point, then they fail it.

If they don't go through encounters, then that amount is usually subtracted from the total, though the scenario you're talking about sounds like that's intended? You might have an exception. There is a mention somewhere in the guide (creative solutions?) that the item can be moved elsewhere in the scenario by the GM when that happens.

[kinevon]

ACtually, I can think of three scenarios, right off the top of my head, where it would be possible for the party to miss anywhere from 1/3rd to 2.3rds of the scenario, if they make certain decisions.

Spoiler:

The Mists of Mwangi: Room on the left, room on the right, room at the end of the hall.

One direction is advised by the VC, and gives the PCs reasons to go to the next place, before heading on to the end location. However, without faction missions, the PCs might head straight to the final encounter, and, if successful, pretty much removces all the other encounters in the museum.

Spoiler:

Voice in the Void: Again, there are two paths to the final encounter, and parties may not backtrack to hit all rooms.

More likely to hit them all, but possibly not, if the party makes the Perception check.

Spoiler:

The Penumbral Accords: Again, especially if the party has manmy members who have played Mists, they can bypass most of the encounters by going ot the final room, although they will lose quite a bit of background information, and not rescue everyone they might, but completing the final room can also negate all the other encounters as the Fetchlings get returned to the Shadow Realm, along with the longer duration slaves and Institue guards.

The two main floor Blackros scenarios, especially this one, can give the option of completing the scenario without gaining any XP for doing so.

[FLite]

As Kinevon pointed out, in at least his first example, the PC's could pick the wrong path, go straight to the boss battle. defeating the boss causes all the other encounters to basically cease to exist. So even if they do go back and explore, they still won't find the rest of the encounters. (I think my solution would be to say "The effects are fading, but they last long enough for the encounter, to still happen. Maybe at a scaled down level.") But it is a problem.

I do notice all three examples above are Blacros Museum. Maybe it is just a Blakros problem?

[CRobledo]

I don't feel this is exactly a problem. What you describe could already happen under the old system if say... all PCs were Cheliax (assuming Cheliax faction mission was in the BBEG room, I just picked a faction for the example). What happened then? Play moved on and if they decided to not check out the rest of the museum for critters and loot well, then they left behind critters and loot.

[FLite]

Yes, but because of faction missions, they often needed to check all the rooms before moving to the big bad, or risk losing the faction mission. Now there is not really an in character incentive to bother with the side paths. In the first and third example above, you can go straight to the boss, kill them. This causes most of the other encounters to cease to be hostile. You can then go back and loot the building without any further danger. Meaning that the PCs would get no XP for the mission, but full gold and 2 PP.

(Actually, if there are enough missions like that, that could seriously affect WBL with a canny group of players. Just go through playing missions that grant Prestige and Wealth, but no XP and drive your WBL through the roof.)

[CRobledo]

Right, what I was saying is that can happen even with faction missions, if all players were the same faction and their mission happened to be like at the BBEG room.

In the case of examples 1 and 3 above, I would actually consider the skipped encounters as "defeated" under the "creative solutions" clause. They didn't necessarily skipped them voluntarily. They didnt even get a chance to fight it.

It is VERY possible even before the change, with faction missions in hand, that players could "stumble" into the BBEG room first and make the rest of the encounters non-hostile. I dont think they should be penalized for "door choice".

Now, if they killed the BBEG, and said "mission accomplished" and went straight back out, then I would still reward them for all the encounters (1xp, they were "defeated" by eliminating the <redacted> in the BBEG room) and gold found.

[FLite]

Alternately in the first example:

Spoiler:

Mists of Mwangi

The final encounter involves fighting the BB champion, while the 3 minibosses creating the problem caper around in cover and avoid combat.

One solution would be that once the fight starts going badly for the champion, one or more minibosses flee to each of the remaining encounters, causing the players to have to deal with it unless they can stop the flight. (That wouldn't even violate the NPC tactics, I think.)

would that be a valid GM call? Or would that violate "run as written"

[Silbeg]

Mists of Mwangi:

Well, if the characters are following the mission, as I recall, they are to report to the curator's office. Since this is a public (or at least semi-public) museum, I don't see an issue with them getting the map. Or, at least directions to the curator's office.

This gets them the first set of encounters. Then, when they find the guard locked in the cabinet, his dialog should point the PCs to the second room (where the Vargoules are), and then to the storeroom and lavatory.

Only then should they go to the final room, having cleared out the back. Now, if this wasn't a PFS scenario, I would have the baddies from the two rooms make their way to the final room if they haven't been properly disposed of. Pretty sure this isn't kosher for a PFS game, though.

However, as a GM, I would strongly suggest that they follow the mission briefing. In reality, for both this scenario, and The Penumbral Accords, they have been invited in. They should follow the briefing instructions, which, if needed, can include a statement to help anyone that is in danger should it become a rescue mission (which both are!).

Players that do not follow the briefings, or act fail to appropriately, deserve to lose the xp and PP, in my eyes.

Sorry... nothing to add that doesn't need to be spoilered!

[Marie]

Hm..The new secondary success conditions should help somewhat, since the players don't know exactly what they need to do to get the second prestige point. A strategic reminder of the mysterious second prestige point could make your players paranoid enough not to cheat themselves out of treasure and XP.

[ahayford]

I have to second what Linda says. The secondary conditions should provide the same incentive to explore the entire dungeon.

[Mike Clarke]

Silbeg wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Sorry... nothing to add that doesn't need to be spoilered!

In this specific scenario I believe the box text describing the hallway would make any team paying attention go strait to the end room. Had it happen twice back when the scenario came out. It removes the other encounters, but the players should still go back and check everything.

[Draven Torakhan]

It should be noted that the players won't always succeed in their faction missions, for various reasons. Even the main success scenario can be failed without a total party wipe; and I've made it clear to my players that failure -is- an option.

[Samish Lakefinder]

This isn't a new situation. Back when each faction had two missions I had a group that was primarily one faction decide they were finished with the scenario before they even entered the dungeon as they had finished both their faction missions outside.

[Mystic Lemur]

Did they get a consensus, or just leave the minority faction out in the cold? I couldn't imagine cheating a player out of his one chance to experience a scenario like this.

[Feral]

I actually like this part of the change. The gamer mentality of 'we need to check every room for loot' always felt super meta-gamey to me.

Now players focus on the story and the mission. There's no more searching random rooms for their faction mission after finding the stair leading down to the BBEG.

[Samish Lakefinder]

In the scenario there is a crazy NPC you meet that is very sleep deprived. The party wanted to rest before entering the dungeon after taking some fall damage. The NPC kept waking people up until they bound and gagged him. They found out that they did not want to sleep as that is when she gets you. After they "rested" and were now fatigued and having other penalties, the faction that wanted to leave leaned heavily on the guy that was a different faction. This was ok as we were all friends playing at a home and watched a movie to pass the rest of the evening.

[Eelario]

Feral wrote:

I actually like this part of the change. The gamer mentality of 'we need to check every room for loot' always felt super meta-gamey to me.

Now players focus on the story and the mission. There's no more searching random rooms for their faction mission after finding the stair leading down to the BBEG.

I agree with this line of logic on the surface, but for the part that ignores every Pathfinder's charter: they are to EXPLORE, report and cooperate. The society is a band of explorers, not assassins or hired mercenaries...they are essentially paid to rummage around and look in all the dusty, dark corners, in addition to fulfilling their overarching objective in a specific mission.

I like the new secondary mission structure because is puts the focus on both parts of every Pathfinder's job - complete the core mission (PP #1) and be a Pathfinder (PP #2).

[Mekkis]

My solution is to hand out faction missions and encourage the players to do them.

I am yet to receive any complaints as a result of doing this, and, when I'm playing season 0-4, I still request the missions.

I feel that the loss of faction missions is a blow to PFS.

[FurtiveZoog]

Mekkis wrote:

My solution is to hand out faction missions and encourage the players to do them.

I am yet to receive any complaints as a result of doing this, and, when I'm playing season 0-4, I still request the missions.

I feel that the loss of faction missions is a blow to PFS.

I would agree, for the most part. I disliked some of the faction mission that required some single skill roll that the player may or may not have ranks in, but overall they added flavor and role-playing opportunities to the scenarios.

When starting my online PbP run of Mists of Mwangi, I gave out the missions but emphasized that they were for flavor only and that the new secondary success conditions would be used.

A happy middle ground, I think, could have been found where the second prestige point could come from either the group completing the overall secondary success condition or the player completing their individual faction quest.

[Thod]

As a GM I don't force them - I guide them.

The players have the option to follow my guidance - or ignore it. Ignoring it can but doesn't need to have consequences.

This can be less PA, less gold, missing some fun - but I don't punish them when what they do fits into the overall story.