Just ban weapon cords, for pity's sake


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Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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The FAQ limiting free actions has exploded into a very heated debate with a lot of grumpy back and forth, and has even dragged in Sean Reynolds to post a clarification of his FAQ's clarification. In other words, it's a bit of a hot mess.

Reading through the thread, and paying close attention to Sean's own posts, it seems that the weapon cord using gunslinger is being pointed at as the culprit behind this push to "remind" GMs of their power to limit free actions. There is also a lot of vitriol directed at PFS by the general community with statements saying that if it weren't for PFS needing a "sameness" at every table then rulings like this would be unnecessary. Essentially, people feel they are being punished due to the existence of PFS, which is not a good thing for a system that is supposed to exist as a marketing tool for the PFRPG. People piling on hate for PFS is not how a marketing tool is supposed to work.

I feel like this is a case where the simple solution is being ignored. As the title suggests, just ban weapon cords.

That would stop any of the stuff Sean is talking about, and most of the stuff that is being argued about in that thread.

Mike also came into the thread to point out solutions to the arguments and how gunslingers were limited by the rules. I would refute those statements by mentioning that the right feats, grit usage and deeds solve much of the misfire, jamming, and penalty issues (stuff which all gunslingers are going to get, anyway), and that the simple spell Abundant Ammunition solves the gp cost of gunslinger ammo; much like every monk carries around a wand of Mage Armor, every gunslinger I see carries around a wand of Abundant Ammunition. Which, by the way, is fine. That's how gunslingers work, and why that spell was made.

So, I'm going to point at the rat in the corner: weapon cords are the only thing that pushes this class into the "silly" range that everyone seems now so upset about.

The continuing debate on mysterious stranger/pistolero legality has even touched on this, mentioning how weapon cords would simply "add to the cheese."

As Rogue Eidolon has mentioned several times when this comes up, the weapon cord completely invalidates one of the base tactics of any fight: disarming your opponent. So, it is not simply gunslingers that get an out-sized benefit from using weapon cords; 5 gp stops an entire chain of feats from being even remotely useful to your enemy.

Jiggy has stated that even the very description of a weapon cord is off: it's described as a 2' long cord, but somehow it allows you to leave your weapon in an adjacent square and act unimpeded. Which is just weird, even though this is obviously not game-breaking.

Just ban the silly thing in PFS. It would solve so many issues and stop so many arguments.

Now, in the immortal words of Johnny Storm: Flame On!

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Well, its one thing when my wild empathy focused druid has a +8 or a +10 to a wild empathy check depending on a rules interpretation.

But when your gunslinger can go from 10 to 3 attacks per round depending on the DMs whim, that's way.. WAY too much variation. I don't think anyone would want to play a pistelero if they're getting FEWER attacks than the musket master.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

Drogon wrote:
just ban weapon cords.

Weapon Cords are Swift actions, I think the item they are worried about is Gloves of Storing.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Back when I was reviewing everything for rebalance of PFS and banned synthesist and the like, weapon cords was something I was seriously looking at also banning for this very reason but was talked out of it. With that said, weapon cords may very well be removed as an option going forward. I'm going to take some time to read feedback here before making a decision.


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So what reasons do we have to ban the weapon cord? I've yet to see an enemy specialized in disarming, and it feels like its a little extreme to ban a weapon over one classes use of them in a full attack(that requires large investment and not everyone uses). Maybe the problem is more so with guns themselves, or possibly with the lack of mechanics related to reloading while dual wielding?


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Honestly, I'd rather see PFS just ban guns, or at least the double-barreled pistols which are the source of the shenanigans. The Touch AC and Dex-to-damage mechanics don't really mesh well with a bow-using environment. The campaign's Bestiary authors were concerned about balancing their ACs, not their Touch ACs.

It also just doesn't make sense to have guns all over the place in Golarion, where guns are confined to Alkenstar. As said by the campaign staff in the past, setting-appropriateness is an important part of the decision to remove or include something.

Guns belong in Alkenstar, and PFS has never been to Alkenstar.

That being said, weapon cords... ehh, not that big of a deal. Has anyone figured out how to make them overpowered without using guns? Sure, there's the disarm issue, but locked gauntlets are in the Core book anyway. Plus, the cord is easily sunderable, something I have done in the past.

In other words... perhaps weapon cords are not the issue; perhaps double-barreled pistols are.

-Matt

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
James Risner wrote:
Drogon wrote:
just ban weapon cords.
Weapon Cords are Swift actions, I think the item they are worried about is Gloves of Storing.

Gloves of storing are "balanced" by cost. A 10,000gp item is not an issue, I think, in the same way that a 5gp item is. Moreover, if I can "replace" that 10,000gp item with one that costs a mere 5gp, I have 9,995gp to spend on things that make me even more powerful, and I've saved myself a magic item slot for different use.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Mattastrophic wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather see PFS just ban guns. The Touch AC and Dex-to-damage mechanics don't really mesh well with a bow-using environment and Bestiaries with monsters whose authors were concerned about balancing their ACs, not their Touch ACs.

It also just doesn't make sense to have guns all over the place in Golarion, where guns are confined to Alkenstar.

Guns belong in Alkenstar, and PFS has never been to Alkenstar.

-Matt

While this speaks to my own love of traditional sword & sorcery fantasy, it is not the right solution.

The rest of you, please leave Mattastrophic alone and don't debate the gunslinger. There are other threads for that. And if you do a search, you'll find plenty of them from the past, as well. Take your gunslinger and/or gun hate/love there.

Lantern Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
But when your gunslinger can go from 10 to 3 attacks per round depending on the DMs whim, that's way.. WAY too much variation. I don't think anyone would want to play a pistelero if they're getting FEWER attacks than the musket master.

After 11th level, a Pistolero having signature deed with up close and deadly will pull well ahead of a musket master in damage. So if you are planning on playing a higher level game for some time, Pistolero is still a valid option.

Your point is well received though, and I agree with your sentiment. If a PC is using major cheese to fire off a load of attacks a round, then sure, limit the amount of cheese they can draw from. But a Pistolero with a single double-barrel pistol, rapid shot, and haste has 12 attacks a round after 16th level. Are we really going to limit that to 5 when there is absolutely no system abuse in that formula other than the fact that double-barrel firearms making it through play testing was a catastrophic oversight in weapon-based combat balance? Even with just a single ye olde pistol at that level, the gunslinger would not even be able to take his 6 regular attacks.

I am with Drogon, let's just ditch the weapon cord from PFS legality and save everyone the headache. If we can nudge the design team to give double-barrel firearms and up close and deadly a second appraisal, that would also be snazzy.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Are double barreled fire arms PFS legal?

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Mattastrophic wrote:

Has anyone figured out how to make guns overpowered without using weapon cords?

-Matt

Notice how the flip I made makes all the difference in your words, Matt?

You do not ban the bat because cork can be put within it to better hit home runs. You ban putting cork into the bat.


Drogon wrote:
The rest of you, please leave Mattastrophic alone and don't debate the gunslinger.

Oh, I'm beyond love/hate, Drogon. I'm taking the ill-fitting mechanics, then adding the guns-in-Golarion issue to fit with the justification the campaign staff has said they have used in the past.

In other words, a double-barreled double-whammy.

Drogon wrote:
You do not ban the bat because cork can be put within it to better hit home runs. You ban putting cork into the bat.

Well, even a basic Pistolero gets pretty crazy due to targeting Touch AC and double-Dex-to-damage-with-Deadly-Aim. The bat can hit home runs just fine. And the bat is made of a material the sport has never seen.

The question still stands, by the way. Has anyone figured out how to make weapon cords overpowered without using guns?

Also, are there other ways of achieving the same shenanigans, such as with a precast unseen servant? Or by Quick Drawing extra guns? If so, would banning weapon cords in order to stop the shenanigans not actually stop the shenanigans?

-Matt

Grand Lodge 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Are double barreled fire arms PFS legal?

Yes. Though I, for one, would not mine seeing that change.

Put me down for banning weapon cords, they are too cheap for what they allow.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Mattastrophic wrote:

Well, even a basic Pistolero gets pretty crazy due to targeting Touch AC and double-Dex-to-damage-with-Deadly-Aim. The bat can hit home runs just fine. And the bat is made of a material the sport has never seen.

-Matt

This is being looked at by different people in different threads. Please leave it there.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I've never seen the weapon cord pistelero gunslinger cheese in play personally. However, at the same time I have also made it clear that as a GM, I do have a solution if I should ever see them.

Sundering the weapon cords.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?

You will not see weapon cords given to PFS bad guys due to this, I would think. The developers for this campaign would not want to draw that kind of negative feedback.

This "automatic" outfitting, by the way, is what I am starting to see in PFS characters. It is a very rare table that I run that does not have weapon cords somewhere among the players. And, if I ever get off a disarm, or knock a PC unconscious, a weapon cord retrieves the dropped weapon with no real penalty. Those players who are sitting around the table who DO NOT have weapon cords immediately take note and make that purchase every time. The benefit they witnessed was just too good to pass up for a paltry 5gp.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Michael Meunier wrote:

Sundering the weapon cords.

Which wastes a round, and often draws attacks of opportunity. So, likely damage taken plus a "free pass" for a round to his enemies so the NPC can avoid a few extra shots or force an actual move action on his opponent to pick that sword up? Not a good deal, in most cases, and one the players will happily take, as I would speculate it results in a dead opponent one round later with no real threat to the players due to the sundering action.

Plus, if we're looking at the gunslinger weapon cord user, he's beyond easy melee reach anyway.


Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?

That's a good question. On that same note, what about bad guys with locked gauntlets?

-Matt

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Way back in the day, a former VO did a great breakdown of how weapon cords affect gunslingers, taking into account alchemical cartridges and double-barreled weapons. The math pointed out that you can still get 6 attacks per round without weapon cords so banning them doesn't necessarily solve the issue.

Liberty's Edge

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If you ban weapon cords, the exploiters win.

It's that simple.

The problem isn't weapon cords. Weapon cords are great and lots of us like using them.

The problem is people who find unintended uses for things like weapon cords and exploit them, creating an arms race between the devs and the exploiters.

All of which only happens at tables with bad GMs who aren't selective about who they will run for.

Changing the game because some people can't handle not childproofed things lessens the game for all of us.

This is why it is important for the community to self police exploits rather than applauding them as "system mastery"

No matter how many hissy fits the exploiters throw.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Michael Meunier wrote:

I've never seen the weapon cord pistelero gunslinger cheese in play personally. However, at the same time I have also made it clear that as a GM, I do have a solution if I should ever see them.

Sundering the weapon cords.

Definitely passes the "That's obvious enough to be a legit tactic" smell test for me.


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Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?

Trick question! The internet will complain about just about anything, but I've never seen a disarm or sunder build in PFS.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

The only way to truly limit free actions by gunslingers is by restricting alchemical cartridges, double-barreled weapons in combination with weapon cords. You cannot do that because the first two are needed to make the class be comparable to other classes at higher levels.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Mattastrophic wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?

That's a good question. On that same note, what about bad guys with locked gauntlets?

-Matt

Not even close to the same as a weapon cord. They only provide a +10 bonus to your CMD for purposes of disarm. In other words, it can still be done, it's just more difficult. Add to that the fact that spellcasters cannot use them and the full-round action to switch weapons, and there are plenty of drawbacks that add up. Weapon cords provide immunity to disarm in the form of a swift action.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MrSin wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?
Trick question! The internet will complain about just about anything, but I've never seen a disarm or sunder build in PFS.

Really? Play more, then. I've seen them a lot.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

ciretose wrote:

If you ban weapon cords, the exploiters win.

It's that simple.

The problem isn't weapon cords. Weapon cords are great and lots of us like using them.

The problem is people who find unintended uses for things like weapon cords and exploit them, creating an arms race between the devs and the exploiters.

All of which only happens at tables with bad GMs who aren't selective about who they will run for.

Changing the game because some people can't handle not childproofed things lessens the game for all of us.

This is why it is important for the community to self police exploits rather than applauding them as "system mastery"

No matter how many hissy fits the exploiters throw.

I will argue that weapon cords changed the game in a way that it didn't need changing. People enjoy finding things that they can "trick out." When something gets pushed too far, limiting how far you can push isn't any good. Just take away what's allowing the push to happen.

Scarab Sages

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Ive never seen this weapon cording shenanigan, the only double barrel pistol user I know has dual reliable double barrels and a monkey belt to hold one while he uses two weapon fighting and just uses a mess of free actions to shift hands holding weapons and reloading. No weapon cord involved. Maybe its more the core mechanic of the double barrel rather than one item that doesn't seem intrinsic to the problem that should be looked at.


Drogon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?
Trick question! The internet will complain about just about anything, but I've never seen a disarm or sunder build in PFS.
Really? Play more, then. I've seen them a lot.

There's probably a more adult response than that. The fact that I haven't seen one at the local games or in any conventions I've been too doesn't mean they don't exist, nor that I will see one if I play more. It does mean that they are rare from my perspective though.

Mind you I was making a quick joke, rather than a serious statement...

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MrSin wrote:
Drogon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?
Trick question! The internet will complain about just about anything, but I've never seen a disarm or sunder build in PFS.
Really? Play more, then. I've seen them a lot.

There's probably a more adult response than that. The fact that I haven't seen one at the local games or in any conventions I've been too doesn't mean they don't exist, nor that I will see one if I play more. It does mean that they are rare from my perspective though.

Mind you I was making a quick joke, rather than a serious statement...

No worries. I usually find your statements worth reading. All I'm doing with that reply is letting you know that your reality is no less important than my reality. We each have our "samples" to draw our experience from, and neither one is less important. But just because you don't see them out there doesn't mean they're not.

Liberty's Edge

Drogon wrote:


I will argue that weapon cords changed the game in a way that it didn't need changing. People enjoy finding things that they can "trick out." When something gets pushed too far, limiting how far you can push isn't any good. Just take away what's allowing the push to happen.

I don't want cool ideas to be thrown out because some people exploit them and others won't call them on it.

That is designing for the lowest common denominator, IMHO.

Lantern Lodge

Mattastrophic wrote:
The question still stands, by the way. Has anyone figured out how to make weapon cords overpowered without using guns?

While I am not sure that overpowered is the right label, I can tell you my personal beef with weapon cords: 1 sp defeating the entire disarm feat line unless that 1 sp is sundered.

Is it a gigantic issue? Not really. If I can have a say in that issue existing or not though, I will definitely voice that say in the form of edit the cord so that it's only mechanic is to prevent a disarmed weapon from actually hitting the ground so that it could be potentially picked up by a baddie and ran off with, or let's just put it out of play.

My 2 cents, not at all saying your or anyone else's view is invalid.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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My take: banning the weapon cords may smooth out some balance issues, but by itself would not be enough to resolve the issues.

Although the weapon cords are a major contributor to the "gunslinger problem" it's not the only one. From reading Sean's posts it seems he wasn't too happy with the (revved up) rate of fire of double-barreled guns in general.

James (Risner) mentioned the glove of storing. Yes it's 10,000. But if a level 8 or 9 gunslinger can double her rate of fire for 10,000gp, it's going to be high on a powergamer's "want" list.

Non-gunslinger, locally the cords have not been (much of) a problem. The question of "is it a dungeon crawl or are you required to look civilized?" is taken fairly seriously. No GMs have a problem with a player putting on a weapon cord if she is expecting combat. It's a tactic you would expect a trained combatant to take advantage of. On the other side watching a fighter trying to figure out what he was going to do with a heavy shield on one wrist and the remnants of a sundered longsword hanging from a cord on the other was quite amusing.

A lot depends on your area:
Weapon cords have not been a problem locally. No one can even recall seeing one of the dual wielding, double-barreled monstrosities that are the proximate cause of much of the recent drama. Partly this is because we have a pretty good self-policing group of people, with dozens of people who aren't afraid to say to a new player "You're making the game unfun for everyone else. Do you really want to be 'that guy/gal'?" And with a couple of exceptions most people take the hint. Pouncing eidolons are down, gunslingers only go to town when asked, and control casters consider what other party members are going to be able to do when they screw with the battlefield. (One memorable player with a flame oracle, gaze of flames, and obscuring mist took the hint when all the other players at the table said "either cut that out or buy 5 goz masks to hand out when you sit down at a table.")

Grand Lodge

Just FYI I read your OP in Sean Bean's Boromir voice. Also aren't Alchemist who two weapon fight with Force Bombs almost as big of a problem in terms of subverting AC?

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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ciretose wrote:
Drogon wrote:


I will argue that weapon cords changed the game in a way that it didn't need changing. People enjoy finding things that they can "trick out." When something gets pushed too far, limiting how far you can push isn't any good. Just take away what's allowing the push to happen.

I don't want cool ideas to be thrown out because some people exploit them and others won't call them on it.

That is designing for the lowest common denominator, IMHO.

We in PFS can't "call them on it." It's in the game, and allowed. We have to allow people to use it due to that "sameness" that we're being pilloried for. Forcing a GM to learn how to be arbitrary in the proper way is not going to happen.

And the exploiters will not feel they have "won" if their toys are taken away. At best, they will be able to happily proclaim that they were part of the group that exposed just how "broken" something really was, and how by exposing it they created change in the game. I'm okay with that kind of win, if it makes them feel good and makes everyone else's games more fun.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MassivePauldrons wrote:
Just FYI I read your OP in Sean Bean's Boromir voice. Also aren't Alchemist who two weapon fight with Force Bombs almost as big of a problem in terms of subverting AC?

Sure. But let's deal with one problem at a time, shall we? (-;

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

MassivePauldrons wrote:
Just FYI I read your OP in Sean Bean's Boromir voice. Also aren't Alchemist who two weapon fight with Force Bombs almost as big of a problem in terms of subverting AC?

They can nova the boss that way, but they can't dominate every fight that way. Bombs run out, ammo/gold doesn't.


Drogon wrote:
No worries. I usually find your statements worth reading. All I'm doing with that reply is letting you know that your reality is no less important than my reality. We each have our "samples" to draw our experience from, and neither one is less important. But just because you don't see them out there doesn't mean they're not.

Ahh, well that was a better response than I expected. Lots of negative karma on the board lately imo.

Anyways, to give a more serious answer, I think there would be complaints if everyone used weapon cords, but I also see a very large difference in NPCs using tactics like that and PCs. NPCs are a dime a dozen and PFS already gives us free reign to break and disarm them and do whatever we want, which is great. On the other hand for example sundering PCs gear could be taken very negatively, because of the way WBL works for PFS. I'm not sure if its a very fair comparison. Regardless of how many people use a tactic, denying it is usually bad if its a human being and your only stepping on their fun.

More to the point, in my experience not everyone grabs weapon cords and I haven't seen them be a large problem(though I will agree the weapon cord thing is a little silly, at least).

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
MassivePauldrons wrote:
Just FYI I read your OP in Sean Bean's Boromir voice. Also aren't Alchemist who two weapon fight with Force Bombs almost as big of a problem in terms of subverting AC?
They can nova the boss that way, but they can't dominate every fight that way. Bombs run out, ammo/gold doesn't.

Suggested encounters for a day is 3-4. Pathfinder society follows this model, I've never seen an scenario where any party I've been with has been meaningfully pushed to the limits of ability usage.

Regardless I apologize for being off topic I just wanted to make a Sean Bean reference.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Belafon wrote:
James (Risner) mentioned the glove of storing. Yes it's 10,000. But if a level 8 or 9 gunslinger can double her rate of fire for 10,000gp, it's going to be high on a powergamer's list.

It still has to go on the list and get spent. Again, if I don't have to put it on my list, I have 9,999+ gp to spend elsewise. Perhaps it is that I am simply 10,000gp closer to those gloves of dueling. And, hey, I'll actually be able to wear them, seeing as I don't have to waste the slot on gloves of storing. Pretty nice trade for that low-cost weapon cord.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Drogon wrote:
Belafon wrote:
James (Risner) mentioned the glove of storing. Yes it's 10,000. But if a level 8 or 9 gunslinger can double her rate of fire for 10,000gp, it's going to be high on a powergamer's list.
It still has to go on the list and get spent. Again, if I don't have to put it on my list, I have 9,999+ gp to spend elsewise. Perhaps it is that I am simply 10,000gp closer to those gloves of dueling. And, hey, I'll actually be able to wear them, seeing as I don't have to waste the slot on gloves of storing. Pretty nice trade for that low-cost weapon cord.

I'm not disagreeing that weapon cords are cheaper, but please read the first line of my post.

Belafon wrote:
My take: banning the weapon cords may smooth out some balance issues, but by itself would not be enough to resolve the issues.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Belafon wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Belafon wrote:
James (Risner) mentioned the glove of storing. Yes it's 10,000. But if a level 8 or 9 gunslinger can double her rate of fire for 10,000gp, it's going to be high on a powergamer's list.
It still has to go on the list and get spent. Again, if I don't have to put it on my list, I have 9,999+ gp to spend elsewise. Perhaps it is that I am simply 10,000gp closer to those gloves of dueling. And, hey, I'll actually be able to wear them, seeing as I don't have to waste the slot on gloves of storing. Pretty nice trade for that low-cost weapon cord.

I'm not disagreeing that weapon cords are cheaper, but please read the first line of my post.

Belafon wrote:
My take: banning the weapon cords may smooth out some balance issues, but by itself would not be enough to resolve the issues.

Sorry. I don't mean to trivialize or re-purpose what you're saying. I just want to be sure to call attention to the fact that spending 10,000gp on something isn't quite the same as NOT HAVING TO in the first place, and still getting the same effect.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Banning the cords might *delay* the problem until higher levels but would not *resolve* it.

[Insert joke about United States Congress here]

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Belafon wrote:

Banning the cords might *delay* the problem until higher levels but would not *resolve* it.

[Insert joke about United States Congress here]

Perhaps you are correct. But at that point the debate can focus on the other stuff that's going on. The side effect will be that disarm becomes a tactic I can start using again, and knocking a PC unconscious has some real tactical choices upon his revitalization due to channeling. I like those side effects, and think the game will be better because of it. My opinion, on that last thought, of course.

But, let's at least find out whether it's a step in the right direction or not, is all I'm saying.

Shadow Lodge

I'm having a pretty good look at this and I just don't know if I see enough justification for a ban.

I hate the big-bad pistolero build (though I've never seen it in play), the FAQ about free actions seems to resolve that build, and I only very rarely care to use weapon cords on my own characters.

Hurting the whole disarm build is a fair point, and the ability to sunder the weapon cord should be taken into account as well (great idea, thanks).

There's a lot of angst here about gunslingers in general - that really doesn't relate.

If we're really upset about weapon cords, let's talk about increasing the price for them in PFS rather than banning them. You can't do that with archetypes, but you certainly can with items, and it should please a lot of people on both sides of the coin.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MrSin wrote:
Drogon wrote:
No worries. I usually find your statements worth reading. All I'm doing with that reply is letting you know that your reality is no less important than my reality. We each have our "samples" to draw our experience from, and neither one is less important. But just because you don't see them out there doesn't mean they're not.

Ahh, well that was a better response than I expected. Lots of negative karma on the board lately imo.

Anyways, to give a more serious answer, I think there would be complaints if everyone used weapon cords, but I also see a very large difference in NPCs using tactics like that and PCs. NPCs are a dime a dozen and PFS already gives us free reign to break and disarm them and do whatever we want, which is great. On the other hand for example sundering PCs gear could be taken very negatively, because of the way WBL works for PFS. I'm not sure if its a very fair comparison. Regardless of how many people use a tactic, denying it is usually bad if its a human being and your only stepping on their fun.

More to the point, in my experience not everyone grabs weapon cords and I haven't seen them be a large problem(though I will agree the weapon cord thing is a little silly, at least).

I try really hard not to do "negative karma." There are two sides to every coin, and you have no choice but to accept the other side if you want to make use of the first side.

NPCs won't get weapon cords any time soon because that would potentially invalidate a lot of players' concepts. That's not fun, and is usually bad, as you have stated.

But, while we as GMs should not be sundering PC gear due to wealth by level issues, we flat out can't (at least in my experience) disarm them, merely because of a (swiftly becoming) ubiquitous 1sp item. Sundering can still happen. And, frankly, if I know a spellcaster in the party has mending on hand, I'm even liable to add it to my list of valid tactics for that game. I like adding in that kind of wrinkle. But I find that the disarm wrinkle is usually not available. I'd rather it were. It is, after all, part of the game, and unlike sunder does not result in potentially ruinous costs.

I'm glad we agree on the "silly" party, by the way. (-:


Drogon wrote:

Out of curiosity, if every bad guy in PFS scenarios starts getting outfitted with weapon cords as an "automatic" feature (much like they all have clothes, for instance), how many people do you think would immediately start howling about how their disarm build is invalidated?

You will not see weapon cords given to PFS bad guys due to this, I would think. The developers for this campaign would not want to draw that kind of negative feedback.

This "automatic" outfitting, by the way, is what I am starting to see in PFS characters. It is a very rare table that I run that does not have weapon cords somewhere among the players. And, if I ever get off a disarm, or knock a PC unconscious, a weapon cord retrieves the dropped weapon with no real penalty. Those players who are sitting around the table who DO NOT have weapon cords immediately take note and make that purchase every time. The benefit they witnessed was just too good to pass up for a paltry 5gp.

This does fall into the "so good that everyone has to have one" category.

Of course, I've always hated that category; it seems like Pathfinders would know the tricks. If the NPCs survived the encounters, I'd expect them to come back with weapon cords, but since we're murder hobos ... ;p

Grand Lodge 4/5

Michael Meunier wrote:

I've never seen the weapon cord pistelero gunslinger cheese in play personally. However, at the same time I have also made it clear that as a GM, I do have a solution if I should ever see them.

Sundering the weapon cords.

No no no....you sunder the WEAPON. You need a full round action to remove the broken weapon so you can pull a new weapon out, or use a move action to draw an edged weapon to cut the cord off and then use your standard to cut the cord off.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

A sundered weapon is still quite cheap to repair with make whole, per the PFS faq.

It's painful during the adventure, but by the time it becomes really-a-thing, it's in the 10% gold goes for consumables region of cost.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Avatar-1 wrote:

I hate the big-bad pistolero build (though I've never seen it in play), the FAQ about free actions seems to resolve that build

You're right. It does. But it creates a mess of other issues. Two years from now, when a new GM is starting to try to figure things out, he's going to see that FAQ and think, "Oh, hey. That zen archer player can't actually shoot 10 times per round. I can point at this and tell him he can do it three times, and that's it." He will be unaware of Sean's clarification in that thread, and will be applying the (not)rule in a way that Sean was not intending. Does that make sense?

Getting rid of the weapon cord creates no unintended consequences except for the occasional GM having to tell a player, "Sorry, man, those are banned. Take back your 1sp and stop trying to juggle guns."

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Cold Napalm wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:

I've never seen the weapon cord pistelero gunslinger cheese in play personally. However, at the same time I have also made it clear that as a GM, I do have a solution if I should ever see them.

Sundering the weapon cords.

No no no....you sunder the WEAPON. You need a full round action to remove the broken weapon so you can pull a new weapon out, or use a move action to draw an edged weapon to cut the cord off and then use your standard to cut the cord off.

You have a devious mind, sir. I like how you think.

That said, I'm still not going to do it unless I know the player can fix his problem during the game instead of after. I don't need to draw that kind of ire down on myself.

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