Just ban weapon cords, for pity's sake


Pathfinder Society

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4/5

Stephen Ross wrote:

[current thought from others] Mike Brock re-visits the ruling he made about a year ago that a weapon dangling from a weapon cord didn't interfere with reloading a (different) firearm.

a big "+1"

I think I'm still in the same camp since post 100.

I'd like to see the "clarification" as, "a sheathed weapon(or firearm) on a weapon cord does not interfere with reloading a different firearm in the other hand, a dangling one does."

I think this is a little more elegant and leaves room for an extra attack but stops the dangling reload. It does not ban weapon cords. It does not create a new rule per se. It doesn't go into "fine manipulation" although it could. I do not support banning weapon cords.

since it seems a yes/no is what is wanted, a retraction of the clarification (effectively a reversal) is good too.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

Stephen Ross wrote:
I did not see any feats/equip that nullified the provoking of AoO caused by loading the firearm

Deft Shootist, although the prerequisites are pretty expensive feat-wise.

4/5

Paz wrote:
Stephen Ross wrote:
I did not see any feats/equip that nullified the provoking of AoO caused by loading the firearm
Deft Shootist, although the prerequisites are pretty expensive feat-wise.

yeah, figured I wouldn't get everything (so many options).

Shootist requires (Amateur Gunslinger -> Extra Grit), Dodge, Mobility...
considering you'll want Point Blank and Precise, probably around 7th+.

I see Drake_Rocket's Guide to Gunslinger thread gave it 3/4 stars.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Stephen Ross wrote:
Shootist requires (Amatuer Gunslinger -> Extra Grit),

I'm not sure what that means. According to the PRD it requires either the Amateur Gunslinger feat or the Grit class feature. I don't see Extra Grit anywhere in there.

Are you referring to the fact that if you take the Amatuer Gunslinger feat and then take levels in a class that grants grit you exchange Amatuer Gunslinger for Extra Grit?

4/5

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Stephen Ross wrote:
Shootist requires (Amatuer Gunslinger -> Extra Grit),

I'm not sure what that means. According to the PRD it requires either the Amateur Gunslinger feat or the Grit class feature. I don't see Extra Grit anywhere in there.

Are you referring to the fact that if you take the Amatuer Gunslinger feat and then take levels in a class that grants grit you exchange Amatuer Gunslinger for Extra Grit?

yes

It is a reasonable 1st level feat that pops up when you take the class. The Deed Gunslinger's Dodge(Ex): immd actn to gain +2AC & Move 5ft or +4(prone) isn't bad.


Just curious but what are the rules for Weapon Cords when you're not fighting?

If they're attached during you're day to day stuff I can see the cord getting in your way.

Then there's the question of how long does it take to attach a weapon cord and what does it attach too?

I know this is being knit-picky but if people are going to abuse/cheese out the weapon cord, those are some questions I'd like to see answers too.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Stephen Ross wrote:
Stephen Ross wrote:

[current thought from others] Mike Brock re-visits the ruling he made about a year ago that a weapon dangling from a weapon cord didn't interfere with reloading a (different) firearm.

a big "+1"

I think I'm still in the same camp since post 100.

I'd like to see the "clarification" as, "a sheathed weapon(or firearm) on a weapon cord does not interfere with reloading a different firearm in the other hand, a dangling one does."

I think this is a little more elegant and leaves room for an extra attack but stops the dangling reload. It does not ban weapon cords. It does not create a new rule per se. It doesn't go into "fine manipulation" although it could. I do not support banning weapon cords.

since it seems a yes/no is what is wanted, a retraction of the clarification (effectively a reversal) is good too.

Sheathed. With a 2 foot cord teetering your wrist to the weapon.

It is hard to see how it wouldn't hamper your movements with that arm.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Matt2VK wrote:

Just curious but what are the rules for Weapon Cords when you're not fighting?

If they're attached during you're day to day stuff I can see the cord getting in your way.

Then there's the question of how long does it take to attach a weapon cord and what does it attach too?

I know this is being knit-picky but if people are going to abuse/cheese out the weapon cord, those are some questions I'd like to see answers too.

PRD wrote:
Weapon Cord: Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.

To remove it you have to untie it, so we can assume that to put it up you have to tie it.

Not a problem outside of combat. No rule for the time needed to do that in combat. You can Tie up a pinned opponent with the standard action you use to maintain the grapple, but that seem more like running a few coils of rope around him than making a knot.

4/5

Diego Rossi wrote:

Sheathed. With a 2 foot cord teetering(tethered?) your wrist to the weapon.

It is hard to see how it wouldn't hamper your movements with that arm.

This is far too detailed for this chat - but you asked... I should mention that I pointed this out elsewhere and said for reloading it shouldn't be an issue.

Please review anthropometric data (choose your own source, but a simple search on google will get you a table or chart).

For this example I'll choose a 6ft human.
With a weapon in the left hand, the right hip is (.191*Ht) 1.2ft away, so in general it isn't going to be an issue for the right hand to reach a weapon in the left. On me (I'm a big guy) it's just 23" left hand body centered forward about 10" in front of body to right hand hip (where the weapon would be holstered).
Hip to floor is about (.530*Ht) 3.18ft, which means the weapon will pull on the hand when the hand is at hip height (reloading). On me (previous position) the left body centered forward hand is at 44" above the ground.

I agree that swimming or jumping jacks where there's a full extension a sheathed or unsheathed weapon on a cord is going to be an issue. We just have to assume that the person makes some compensations to avoid a negative modifier.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So you are reloading your muzzle loader keeping it at your hip in combat.
I suppose you are doing it by feeling, as you need to look what is happening around you.

"We just have to assume that the person makes some compensations to avoid a negative modifier."
I fail to see why we should assume something that isn't in the rules and will only help players that like to abuse them.

"tethering", following the spell checker suggestions something give the wrong result.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

So they just updated Weapon Cords in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Cord: What kind of action is it to recover a weapon attached to your wrist with a weapon cord?

As originally published, this was a swift action. The design team has changed this to a move action. This will be updated in the next printing of Ultimate Equipment.

—Pathfinder Design Team, today

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

pH unbalanced wrote:

So they just updated Weapon Cords in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Cord: What kind of action is it to recover a weapon attached to your wrist with a weapon cord?

As originally published, this was a swift action. The design team has changed this to a move action. This will be updated in the next printing of Ultimate Equipment.

—Pathfinder Design Team, today

Oh dear...

Shadow Lodge

Got a link to that? I can't find it.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Avatar-1 wrote:
Got a link to that? I can't find it.

Here.

Silver Crusade

This means that it will provoke, which basically ends the majority of this item's usefulness. So be it.

Silver Crusade

David Bowles wrote:
This means that it will provoke, which basically ends the majority of this item's usefulness. So be it.

Why would it provoke? I would rule it exactly as drawing a weapon, which is also a move action.


David Bowles wrote:
This means that it will provoke, which basically ends the majority of this item's usefulness. So be it.

Actually, I believe that what happens is that the weapon cord now allows you to retrieve the item as a move action that does not provoke an AoO, as well as prevents it from leaving your square when you're disarmed.

The Exchange

Further reading.

Using a weapon cord as a move action does not draw an AoO.

Scarab Sages

trollbill wrote:
It spoils the fun for DMs by making them feel like they can't provide a challenge to the players.

Providing a challenge is not the job of the GM and should not be tied to their fun.


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*waits for someone to ask if they can sell their weapon cord back at full price*


Kyle Baird wrote:
*waits for someone to ask if they can sell their weapon cord back at full price*

Eh, wouldn't really bother me either way. We're quibbling over a sub-GP item. Technically not even tracked, so proving it would be hard and frankly, if a character's wealth were off by a few silvers I wouldn't call them on it anyway.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Kyle Baird wrote:
*waits for someone to ask if they can sell their weapon cord back at full price*

*waits for someone to ask about a rebuild for their TWF gunslinger*

Shadow Lodge

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
*waits for someone to ask if they can sell their weapon cord back at full price*
*waits for someone to ask about a rebuild for their TWF gunslinger*

*waits in the shadows, to POUNCE!*

Silver Crusade

Well, then it still works adequately for a paladin.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

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That is a good ruling and the weapon cord is still as useful as before, at least in my eyes.

The TWF gunslinger should still have enough other options as i understand it.


I like this change. BUT MY NEW ULTIMATE EQUIPMENT IS OUT OF DATE! =P


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Finlanderboy wrote:
I like this change. BUT MY NEW ULTIMATE EQUIPMENT IS OUT OF DATE! =P

I still use a first printing CRB. I'm pretty sure nothing's changed since 2009..

5/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka lastblacknight

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Weapon cords are also useful for PC's on mounts or ships - if knocked unconscious it's nice to know the staff I spent 19K for isn't currently sinking to the sea floor...

It's not always about the cheese.

Dark Archive

And now we await the flood of people saying they should get a free gunslinger rebuild because they set up for this instead of the other, less effective form of breaking the class.


I was teasing since I literally just bought it today.

Silver Crusade

Finlanderboy wrote:
I was teasing since I literally just bought it today.

Cross out the word "swift" and replace with the word "move" in one single sentence, and---voilà!---your book has been updated.


Mundanes get a nerf, full casters left alone.

Another beautiful day in pathfinder


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The Fox wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
I was teasing since I literally just bought it today.
Cross out the word "swift" and replace with the word "move" in one single sentence, and---voilà!---your book has been updated.

YAY!

Shadow Lodge

lastblacknight wrote:

Weapon cords are also useful for PC's on mounts or ships - if knocked unconscious it's nice to know the staff I spent 19K for isn't currently sinking to the sea floor...

It's not always about the cheese.

I doubt it ... it just forces them to buy a monkey belt do do the same thing as before

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

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I kinda wish that weapon cords had been errata-ed to make the action: a move action or as part of a move action to move (like drawing a weapon in the first place), because this ruling encourages going back to the golf bag approach, but I can see why it's been done this way.

If I was really wishing, I'd ask for a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to flick a weapon corded weapon back into hand as a swift action (but only if the PC had a move action left), because at the moment it's now quicker to mount a horse than it is to draw a dagger, but this would lead back to the original problem.


Maybe somone can explain this to me, but what is with the hatred of gunslingers in PFS so much. I announced I was playing one and I could swear I heard a groan


Stupidbadfun

Ignore them.

When I bust out my wizard sorcerer oracle I get the same thing.

5/5 5/55/5

Because the term Gunslinger summons the wrong image of what the class is about, and people don't want western in their fantasy. Terms like Pistolero don't help much either.

Similarly, the class has been seen as exploitable/broken (ie the weapon cord debacle) and it all went downhill for the class public relations.

Sovereign Court

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The Fox wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
I was teasing since I literally just bought it today.
Cross out the word "swift" and replace with the word "move" in one single sentence, and---voilà!---your book has been updated.

Write in my book, shame on you for even suggesting such a thing. :-(

Dark Archive

Hooraaaaaaaaaaaay! :D

5/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka lastblacknight

Wraith235 wrote:
lastblacknight wrote:

Weapon cords are also useful for PC's on mounts or ships - if knocked unconscious it's nice to know the staff I spent 19K for isn't currently sinking to the sea floor...

It's not always about the cheese.

I doubt it ... it just forces them to buy a monkey belt do do the same thing as before

it's swift action to activate - can't be done when unconscious. So no, a monkey belt doesn't replace a weapons cord.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka lastblacknight

Visually - I can't see more than one weapon cord working per hand and even then you have pounds of weight dangling at the end of a 2 foot cord. good luck with the swift action.

Have any of the people complaining ever used a yo-yo?

(another vote for a move action...)

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Matthew Trent wrote:
trollbill wrote:
It spoils the fun for DMs by making them feel like they can't provide a challenge to the players.
Providing a challenge is not the job of the GM and should not be tied to their fun.

For most players, challenge IS part of the fun. Though how much challenge is needed to keep the game enjoyable will vary from player to player.

Scarab Sages

trollbill wrote:
Matthew Trent wrote:
trollbill wrote:
It spoils the fun for DMs by making them feel like they can't provide a challenge to the players.
Providing a challenge is not the job of the GM and should not be tied to their fun.
For most players, challenge IS part of the fun. Though how much challenge is needed to keep the game enjoyable will vary from player to player.

I can't speak to most players (as apparently you can). I only ever speak for myself (and my friends when I know opinion).

I actually have a lot more fun roleplaying my characters personality than being beaten over the head with encounters that have been designed to challenge a super-cheese monkey. In fact I'd say that most of my unfun experiences have come during 'challenging' encounters.


I just wanted to quote this because it seems like very good sense. It doesn't need to be WORSE than drawing a weapon in any situation, having the exact same action so that its compatable with doing for free with a normal Move Action (the Move Move Action, god I hate the contraction of Move-Equivalent Action to Move Action) which still precludes a Full Attack or other Full Round Action.

Matt Goodall wrote:
I kinda wish that weapon cords had been errata-ed to make the action: a move action or as part of a move action to move (like drawing a weapon in the first place), because this ruling encourages going back to the golf bag approach, but I can see why it's been done this way.

Silver Crusade

trollbill wrote:
Matthew Trent wrote:
trollbill wrote:
It spoils the fun for DMs by making them feel like they can't provide a challenge to the players.
Providing a challenge is not the job of the GM and should not be tied to their fun.
For most players, challenge IS part of the fun. Though how much challenge is needed to keep the game enjoyable will vary from player to player.

I have to agree with the above poster. The GM is really supposed to be more of an adjudicator I thikn; the author sets the difficulty. A lot of it is really out of the GMs hands.

The idea of the GM supposed to be providing the challenge seems to lead to "mistakes" or "misread stat blocs" in my experience.

Shadow Lodge

Wraith235 wrote:
lastblacknight wrote:

Weapon cords are also useful for PC's on mounts or ships - if knocked unconscious it's nice to know the staff I spent 19K for isn't currently sinking to the sea floor...

It's not always about the cheese.

I doubt it ... it just forces them to buy a monkey belt do do the same thing as before

I wonder if I hit reply to the wrong post ... what I Said doesnt even make sense in response to your comment

I remember a report of someone using a Monkey belt to alleviate the need for Weapon Cords reading the Item though I'm not 100% Sure how that was done

thats what I was refering to

5/5 5/55/55/5

Wraith235 wrote:


I remember a report of someone using a Monkey belt to alleviate the need for Weapon Cords reading the Item though I'm not 100% Sure how that was done

thats what I was refering to

From monkey belt

and hold or manipulate objects about as well as the wearer’s normal limbs

All you need the extra hand to do is hold the gun so you can reload it, so once you have the tail holding the handle your other hand can reload it while your other hand is holding the other gun.

Lantern Lodge

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I think the change is a game balance appropriate one, and I want to say kudos to the design team as well as PFS leadership for considering the broad array of options and choosing the one that creates the least amount of ripples.

The change allows the item to still be useful without allowing two gun juggling or largely invalidating the disarm maneuver. Well played folks.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Lormyr wrote:

I think the change is a game balance appropriate one, and I want to say kudos to the design team as well as PFS leadership for considering the broad array of options and choosing the one that creates the least amount of ripples.

The change allows the item to still be useful without allowing two gun juggling or largely invalidating the disarm maneuver. Well played folks.

Agreed.

It also gives archers back their free actions (and everyone else who was worried about it). To me, that was the most important goal.

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