Just ban weapon cords, for pity's sake


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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Andrew Christian wrote:

P1 = Primary Hand

P2 = Secondary Hand

Assume both double barreled pistols are loaded

P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrels

That's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.

Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.

Thought it. You cannot reload P2, because in order to reload P1 you needed a free hand and then you recovered P2 as a swift action. That should take some of that attacks out in the first place.

Grand Lodge

Entilzha wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

P1 = Primary Hand

P2 = Secondary Hand

Assume both double barreled pistols are loaded

P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrels

That's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.

Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to alternate between hands when Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e. P1-P2-P1-P2-P1-P2-P1)? That's the way I've always played it.

Although it may not fix the issue, enforcing that sequence of Two-Weapon Fighting may alleviate the Weapon Cord abuse...

No, you only have to declare what attack at what bonus you are making before rolling. You can do all your Primary and then all your Secondary if you want, or alternate like you said.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

The real deal is clearly the action economy here and i think there is a mistake i that.

How are you reloading P1 at the beginning while holding P2?

With a weapon cord it´s either:
-Hold P1, shoot and reload as often as possible, then drop it and recover P2 and do the same.
-Hold both, shoot and drop one of them to reload the other, shoot reload, drop it, recover the other, shoot reload.

Not sure if that makes a difference. Would need to go through it and also consider TWF workings. But something stinks a bit there.
If i would meet a player like that, i would really look on this and at the first mistake interrupt his attacks hehe. And no turning back then.

Perhaps i would even be so evil and bring a sand clock to the table, time-limiting turns then.

As for the other stuff. Mike ruled that "a" weapon cord or weapon cords don´t interfer with reloading? Guess there is sitll some rom to limit that. When i see how many people including the design team said "no" to halfling sling staffs and a lot of other low-power things because of prejudices versus halflings and people believing stuff is weak or has to be, then this is really getting weird.

For people paying a Cons the same is true.
How many other stuff would would be turned away?
I can remember a heated discussion about blur providing concealment for stealth among many, which was officialy denied at that time. Now it´s even mentioned in the Survival 101 like that.

Still i think the double-barreled firearms are the problem. Without them it seems gunslingers are just in line with archers or maybe even a little bit better due to hitting touch AC and doing DEX to damage.

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

If the problem is strictly double-barrel pistols and not double-barrel firearms in general, there is another solution.

PRD wrote:

Musket, Double-Barreled: This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

BOLD mine.

As you can see, the wording for how the double-barrel pistol works is different from that of the double-barrel musket (and double-barrel shotgun, as well). By using the word "attack' for the double-barrel musket it is clear you may fire both barrels as part of every attack. However, the use of the word "action" regarding the double-barrel pistol makes how this works much more subject to interpretation.

There are three possible interpretations:

1) The use of the word "action" instead of "attack" was a poor choice of words/typo and all double-barrel weapons work exactly the same way. This interpretation is pretty much what everyone currently assumes.

2) The use of the word "action" means you may only fire both barrels simultaneously once as part of any given action, be it a Standard Action Attack or a Full-Attack Action.

3) The use of the word "action" means "attack action" which essentially puts it in the same realm as Vital Strike, i.e. you may use it only as part of a Standard Action Attack.

As has been demonstrated regarding his clarification of weapon cords and reloading, Mike Brock does have the power to make specific rules interpretations regarding PFS. So he could nerf the double-barrel pistol by choosing interpretation 2 or 3.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Hehe nice. Rules laywering goes two ways^^

Anyway, 14 shots are pretty loud if someone is not using that oil of silence, which might end up with drawing all dungeon denizens to one point at once. Often there is nothing written in scenarios to prevent that. it´s really mean and bad and certainly not good gming.
But at some point, it´s legal to raise peer pressure versus questionable things.

Silver Crusade

Assuming its a dungeon. But, yeah, I guess you could go there.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Paz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Paz wrote:
As a player of a gunslinger with one single-barrelled pistol (with rapid reload, rapid shot and paper cartridges) and no weapon cords, I hope he doesn't get caught in the crossfire here, so to speak.
Is there any reason not to use a musket in that setup?

He's got the pistolero archetype.

The nicely-painted mini I have has him holding a pistol.
Pistols are cooler.

Woah! Did you base character decisions off a cool concept instead of mechanics? That's awesome!


Walter Sheppard wrote:
Woah! Did you base character decisions off a cool concept instead of mechanics? That's awesome!

+1...

(also, only musket masters archetype gets down to a free action reloading with a musket <_< *scurries out*)

The Exchange

Benjamin Falk wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

P1 = Primary Hand

P2 = Secondary Hand

Assume both double barreled pistols are loaded

P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrels

That's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.

Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.

Thought it. You cannot reload P2, because in order to reload P1 you needed a free hand and then you recovered P2 as a swift action. That should take some of that attacks out in the first place.

The way the attacks go for a twfing pistolero at 15 level is:

15th level pistolero with double-barrel pistol and weapon cords.
pistol out in the right hand, left dangling on cord, both loaded.

fire rh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions (so you are ready with this gun next round)
Drop RH gun, free action, retrieve LH gun on cord, swift action
fire lh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both barrels as 2 free actions

12 shots, 15 free actions, 1 swift action.

This was the attack routine of a pistolero in our group...not sure if he had greater twfing or not but he was getting 4d6 precision damage on each shot and a +19 or 20 to each due to dex to damage and bonuses. He was able to average around 400dpr. Didn't prevent the Sea Serpent from plucking him off the deck and dragging him to his demise in the deep blue though...
He was ridiculously broken.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Well that´s more like it.

But if this only happens at level 15, how is this so PFS important?
I think levels 5-10 should be more of a concern.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Level 6 can get improved two weapon fighting and rapid shot. That would be 3 attacks (6 shots with double barreled pistol) with primary hand and 2 attacks (4 shots) with off hand. That's 10 shots at level 6 without use of haste.


Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I haven't had fun when players do this and take 10 to 20 minutes to figure it all out. As a player who often has a single spell or maybe 2 attacks to use (except for my druid. AC gets 2 attacks and when wild shaped can get 3 on pounce and 2 more with rake--but I can usually go through it all in under 30 seconds.) As a GM it drives me batty.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew,

How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?

Andrew Christian wrote:
Is it probable that he rolls a 1 in 14 tries? Sure. But just as likely that he also rolls a x4 crit.

Andrew, again, I guess I'm missing something. Please bear with me.

1) With paper cartridges, the Pistelero still has a misfire chance of 1 or 2, yes? (Unless, as trollbill notes, she's also a Mysterious Stranger and using Stranger's Fortune, but we're not letting that character sit at our table.)

2) How is the gunslinger auto-confirming her criticals?

--

I'm not saying that the current situation isn't a problem. But I do believe the problem is being blown out of proportion.

You know those threads about how a wizard is so fracking powerful, but assume that the wizard comes with a full component of spells, and has prepared just the right useful ones for the situation, and assumes that the enemy never makes its saving throws? I think the same is true here. This scenario assumes that the gunslinger with the weapon cords (a) has selected the suite of feats necessary to make this work, (b) starts the round with both guns drawn, (c) with an opponent within close range, and (d) never misfires. That seems at least partially situational.

Now, let's say that the gunslinger's allies are buffing her, using magic to mitigate her misfires, using conjuration magic to get her close to the bad guys, interposing to keep the bad guys off her. Then she's no longer soloing the encounter; then she's acting like the quarterback, and I have no trouble at all letting that kind of team-work win.

Lantern Lodge

Our group uses index cards to augment our character sheets. These cards factor in all bonuses expected to be had when buffed with the particular group we are in. Then we use color coded d20's for the attack rolls (2 blue are first main/off-hand, 2 red second main/offhand, ect.). Doing that, 6 attacks and their damage gets worked out in about 10 seconds.

If you are not prepared though, it can take forever. If you want to play that character with a billion attacks per round, do your fellows at the table a favor and have all your math well worked out ahead of time.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Chris Mortika wrote:
I have no trouble at all letting that kind of team-work win.

No! No teamwork! I cast confusion! With Persistent Spell! NO TEAMWOOOORRRRRK!!!

;)

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Kyle Baird wrote:

Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

I don't. It's actually very dull, and there is a lot of it in our area. So, I go Chris's route and build support guys that can make all those guys hit harder. When I realize the (druid/gunslinger/archer/TWF/2Hbarb/eidolon) doesn't have to be buffed because he's going to destroy stuff no matter what, then I spend my time focusing on the other players at the table so that they can get invovled and not feel left behind. That or I'll ham it up a bit and get people laughing. Somehow I will focus on making sure other players have fun; the druid/gunslinger/archer/TWF/2Hbarb/eidolon is already having fun by blowing things up.

But I'm unusual in that regard, at least in my area.

And, Chris, I know that gunslingers SHOULD be misfiring on occasion. But they don't for whatever reason (feat/grit/class feature/I don't know). When they do, they take a reroll and get that misfire off the table completely. On the rare occasion that I have seen a misfire (and it's REALLY rare) they do not seem to be hindered in any way due to some other reason (feat/grit/class feature/I don't know).


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Kyle Baird wrote:

Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

A player can just as easily do that same thing out of combat demanding the DM follow their character at the expense of other.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka Gwen Smith

Benjamin Falk wrote:

The real deal is clearly the action economy here and i think there is a mistake i that.

Not sure if that makes a difference. Would need to go through it and also consider TWF workings. But something stinks a bit there.
If i would meet a player like that, i would really look on this and at the first mistake interrupt his attacks hehe. And no turning back then.

I'm confused at the apparent stacking of TWF and Rapid Shot. Unless you're throwing weapons, how do you use TWF with ranged weapons?

Maybe this is part of the issue. There's a long-standing precedent that different effects that give you additional attacks do not stack (flurry with TWF, for example). Is there something in the Gunslinger class that specifically allows this?


Ban them.

I am so tired of players ignoring weapons cords when they drop and switch weapons and then remembering them when they are disarmed or stunned. A remarkably high percentage of players do this because they literally forget that 5gp item exists until they situation arises for which they bought it. But most remember their golf bag of weapons.

Truthfully as a DM I don't want ask about weapon cords everything someone drops a weapon or switches weapons, which is currently the only option and I've never seen a DM do this. Ever.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

Kyle Baird wrote:
5+ attack rolls every turn?

It is only really a problem for those that don't have a different color d20 and damage die for each attack with a chart of bonuses written out for each color. Sadly, I imagine this is a small number of players.

It really gets to be a problem with a 10th level Sound Striker bard making 10 attack rolls with 10 saves and 10 damage rolls every turn. 30 dice rolled a round is insane.


Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Is there something in the Gunslinger class that specifically allows this?

There are a few ways to use two weapon fighting with ranged weapons. Gunslingers in particular do so by being able to fire a one handed range weapon. They then use weapon cords so they have a free hand to reload, drop one weapon, switch to the other, and begin firing again. Repeat each round. Couple with double barrel weapons, ranged feats that add more shots, and only needing one stat to damage and hit.

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Maybe this is part of the issue. There's a long-standing precedent that different effects that give you additional attacks do not stack (flurry with TWF, for example).

Flurry doesn't stack with TWF because it essentially is TWF. It does stack with haste and using a ki point to add in more attacks. Plenty of effects that add more attacks do actually stack.

James Risner wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
5+ attack rolls every turn?
It is only really a problem for those that don't have a different color d20 and damage die for each attack with a chart of bonuses written out for each color. Sadly, I imagine this is a small number of players.

I have seven sets myself.

Sovereign Court

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

I'm confused at the apparent stacking of TWF and Rapid Shot. Unless you're throwing weapons, how do you use TWF with ranged weapons?

Maybe this is part of the issue. There's a long-standing precedent that different effects that give you additional attacks do not stack (flurry with TWF, for example). Is there something in the Gunslinger class that specifically allows this?

There may be text somewhere, but I believe it has something to do with the fact that firearms have a handedness, and thus are "One-Handed" or "Two-Handed" weapons.

Sovereign Court

Kyle Baird wrote:

Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

Like Lormyr I use color coordinated dice and a rolling sheet with bonuses pre-computed to limit my time per turn. Like you I wouldn't play a character that took up too much of the table's time.


People are saying you can shoot all your shots with one gun and then with the other. But the full attack action in the SRD states "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." So you get to choose which weapon to attack with, but they have to alternate as they must be in order from highest to lowest.

So, since you have to do it from highest to lowest, wouldn't you have
with two weapon fighting/improved/greater two weapon fighting and rapid shot:
(includes penalties from rapid shot, double barrelled gun and twf)

Highest bab -10x2[to reload must have had one hand open]

Highest bab -10x2(rapid shot)[reload again]

Highest bab -10x2 (two weapon fighting, must switch weapon at this point)[quickdrawing second gun][must drop first gun to reload]

Highest bab -15x2 (regular secondary attack, could be offhand the same offhand so no switch required)[reload]

Highest bab -15x2 (improved twf, must switch weapon at this point)[swift action cord retrieve first weapon, must drop second gun to reload]

Highest bab -20x2 (regular third attack, do not have to switch hands)[reload]

Highest bab -20x2 (greater twf, must switch)[Can not make this attack as no swift action to use to retrieve second gun, can not draw new gun as weapon cords do not permit it.

So first round can max out on 12 attacks and the rest of the rounds would be 10 as you have to use the swift action to recover on the first weapon change. Still pretty bad though.


James Risner wrote:
It really gets to be a problem with a 10th level Sound Striker bard making 10 attack rolls with 10 saves and 10 damage rolls every turn. 30 dice rolled a round is insane.

Of course that's only the case if they have 10 targets. ;-)

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Kyle Baird wrote:

Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

Now you just use Garble to eat things up... ;)

Tangent away!

So pre-PFS, when I just did homebrews, we had a bit of a house rule regarding characters that roll lots of dice: if you are going to play a character that involves lots of math, be able to do that math in a timely fashion. Nothing is more frustrating as a player than sitting on your hands for a few minutes as the rogue figures out how his 7 attacks resolve. Not forgetting haste, heroism, flanking, the entangled penalty, and any number of other adjustments.

That said, telling people not to play what they want to is terrible form. So, I've had to modify that house rule: if you play a character that involves a lot of math, either be able to do that math in a timely fashion or accept the help of others. If you can't keep all those modifiers straight, then allow the person beside you or your GM to help you add them up. I do this all the time as a GM. If I have to roll a couple of NPC fireballs, I'll pass the dice to a player, and have them roll and add them up while I move on to something else.

Alternatively, as others have said, roll up those attacks ahead of time and get a head start on the math. Just make sure you let the GM know first. Telling your GM that you pre-rolled your attacks and got a critical threat can be treated pretty suspiciously. But asking your GM if it's OK to roll your attacks ahead of time to speed up combat is perfectly acceptable. An active combat is a fun combat.

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Chris Mortika wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew,

How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?

Andrew Christian wrote:
Is it probable that he rolls a 1 in 14 tries? Sure. But just as likely that he also rolls a x4 crit.

Andrew, again, I guess I'm missing something. Please bear with me.

1) With paper cartridges, the Pistelero still has a misfire chance of 1 or 2, yes? (Unless, as trollbill notes, she's also a Mysterious Stranger and using Stranger's Fortune, but we're not letting that character sit at our table.)

Actually, if he is using Alchemical Cartridges with a Double-Barrel Pistol, he misfires on a 1,2,or 3. The biggest problem I have seen is people not realizing this (or forgetting it) and assuming they only misfire on a 1. I'm sure I have forgotten a few times myself. You actually have to mentally train yourself to realize that numbers other than 1 can have detrimental effects on attack rolls. I have also seen people misinterpret the Gun Training rules as lowering the misfire chance on all attacks, not just attacks made with a broken gun.

Assuming they do follow the rule correctly, however, there are things they can do to reduced or mitigated misfires, such as, Reliable, Dwarf Favored Class bonus, Lucky, Shirt Rerolls, Gnome Eternal Hope, Slate Spiders, etc. Generally speaking, as a Gunslingers number of attacks goes up as he gains levels, so does his ability to mitigate misfires.

Quote:
2) How is the gunslinger auto-confirming her critical?

They don't, but since they attack touch AC, they usually have a good chance of confirming.

Grand Lodge

Drogon wrote:
And, Chris, I know that gunslingers SHOULD be misfiring on occasion. But they don't for whatever reason (feat/grit/class feature/I don't know).

Maybe there is some kind of strange dice altering thing around here, but people who play gunslingers tend to roll more 1s than anyone else at my venue. :/


Todd Lower wrote:
Like Lormyr I use color coordinated dice and a rolling sheet with bonuses pre-computed to limit my time per turn. Like you I wouldn't play a character that took up too much of the table's time.

Is that the norm? We all have a small slice of the campaign as a whole, and in my piece of the pie (mmm... pie...) it's most often not the case that multiple attacks are nicely color coded, maybe a 30/70 or 40/60 split?

Combat pets at the table are limited to reduce the length of a player's turn in an encounter. Most of the "I summon a ton of crap" things are banned.

Should there be an artificial limit on the number of attack rolls that can be made per turn (including AoOs even? maybe?). Just spit balling, not thinking one way or the other.

One example I was thinking of is Mortika's monk build. First let me say, he played it fine, it broke my verisimilitude but the table didn't seem to mind and at the time I didn't have any sort of major problem with it. From what I understand of his build, he runs around provoking AoOs in order to get attacks on people. And then uses those attacks for trips and then uses greater trip to get more attacks. Then he actually gets his turn which he can then flurry. Through the course of the round, he might be making 10+ attack rolls. I specifically remember several encounters where it felt like most of the table did their one thing and then it became Chris's turn and it seemed to take 10x as long to adjudicate (arbitrary number based on foggy memory). Again, Chris handled it well, was very prepared to run the character, but it still seemed... I don't know. Excessive? Maybe unnecessary is a better word?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:

The real deal is clearly the action economy here and i think there is a mistake i that.

Not sure if that makes a difference. Would need to go through it and also consider TWF workings. But something stinks a bit there.
If i would meet a player like that, i would really look on this and at the first mistake interrupt his attacks hehe. And no turning back then.

I'm confused at the apparent stacking of TWF and Rapid Shot. Unless you're throwing weapons, how do you use TWF with ranged weapons?

Maybe this is part of the issue. There's a long-standing precedent that different effects that give you additional attacks do not stack (flurry with TWF, for example). Is there something in the Gunslinger class that specifically allows this?

If you wield two pistols you can shot both as a full attack action. This is not mutually exclusive with rapid shot. Otherwise it would explicitly indicate as such.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Kyle Baird wrote:


One example I was thinking of is Mortika's monk build. First let me say, he played it fine, it broke my verisimilitude but the table didn't seem to mind and at the time I didn't have any sort of major problem with it. From what I understand of his build, he runs around provoking AoOs in order to get attacks on people. And then uses those attacks for trips and then uses greater trip to get more attacks. Then he actually gets his turn which he can then flurry. Through the course of the round, he might be making 10+ attack rolls. I specifically remember several encounters where it felt like most of the table did their one thing and then it became Chris's turn and it seemed to take 10x as long to adjudicate (arbitrary number based on foggy memory). Again, Chris handled it well, was very prepared to run the character, but it still seemed... I don't know. Excessive? Maybe unnecessary is a better word?

For those playing along at home, that's what Panther Style feat chain is supposed to do. And Kyle, after moving, the character didn't flurry. He would try to end up next to a spellcaster and ready an attack.

I hope I didn't cause problems for the group at the table.

--

At least at my table, if you roll an attack, you've committed your character to take the swing / shot. So, if you roll 6 attacks, and the second one's a misfire, then you're still shooting with the clogged firearm.

Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

I think having that many attacks is ok actually, but you really need to encourage players to be prepared and to know their stuff.
I discourage new or weaker players to play such stuff untill they can handle it. And if someone sits there every turn taking several minutes to communicate what she is doing and then needing several more minutes afterwards, i take them aside afterwards and give them some hints how to do that faster and point out that this gets boring for all others.

Thing with the gunslinger here is though, that apparently there aren´t only many attacks, but a lot of damage that reliably hits. Might be different with a monk.
And then there are weapon cords involved, which are a grain in someones eyes and who wants those weapon cords banned.

This might even be about weapon cords only and not about gunslingers doing crazy things with double-barreled firearms.


Walter Sheppard wrote:
if you are going to play a character that involves lots of math, be able to do that math in a timely fashion.

When I ran RftRK at 15th level at Gen Con last year, I had a (mostly*) great group of players. I told them that at their level speed was going to be everything if they wanted to be competitive. I had the luxury of knowing the players I was getting ahead of time, so we were able to hash-out any issues ahead of time. I even had them make tent cards for every buff they were likely to use. There was a flurrying monk who by the time I got around to him, had all his rolls done, sitting out in front of him and the math all figured out. The wizard who dazing chain lighting'd a group of innocent mercenaries totaled his damage before I got to his turn. This was great for speed, but it lacked something.

There's something to be said for everyone getting to watch you roll a d20 or throw 10d6 onto the table. That bit of suspense. I feel like this gets lost when we focus on speeding the game up too much, but at the same time, for these types of builds (see far above), that bit of excitement at the table gets lost in the flurry of d20's being rolled. Sure some of them will be hits, maybe even a 20 or a 1 in there, but over the course of 5, 6, 12 dice, it all averages out.

Another anecdotal story (sorry, I'm in story mode today): BBEG in a very important series of scenarios. PCs are a bit over-matched and one PC throws a hail mary SoS spell. I pick up my d20, bam, natural 1. Table goes nuts. Everyone's laughing and happy, including me.

Now take that situation a little bit differently. PC throws a short pass (yay football) for them, something they do all the time. They cast a Persistent SoS spell with a high save DC. Now my BBEG rolls not one, but two dice. Even if he needs an 11 to make the save, he now only has a 25% chance to survive the one-and-done situation. The expectation at the table is that the BBEG is going to lose to this one spell in one round. To me, it feels less exciting** when I'm expecting to win.

A third example with the same situation is a fightery type character, whether ranged or whatever, but let's say they get 10 attacks. Instead of rolling that single d20 and hoping to hit the BBEG's AC (or touch AC...), the table is watching 10 dice hit the table with the expectation that some of the attacks will hit and the BBEG is going to be seriously disabled if not dead (in the case of the extreme builds).

I've sat at tables where I'm just hoping to beat certain characters in initiative because I know if I don't, I'm not likely to get a turn or if I do, it's not likely to be as effective (yay, thanks for buffing us now that the dude's almost dead).

I'm not trying to argue that every build should have same economy of actions, but perhaps there should be a lower limit to the extreme upper end.

*Caubo sucks.

**I'm not trying to say that the game's only fun if you need the BBEG to roll a natural 1 to be victorious.


Chris Mortika wrote:
I hope I didn't cause problems for the group at the table.

You didn't at all, but remembering back to that blur of a weekend, it seemed like a build that demanded more time to run 'properly' in an encounter.

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5

Kyle Baird wrote:

Slight tangent:

I'm curious to know how many people have enjoyed themselves at a table where players were rolling 5+ attack rolls every turn? I'm sure there's some cases where the player is prepared, prerolls because the GM trusts them, etc. But is that the norm? What about for a wildshaped pouncing druid with a pouncing animal companion. That's like 8+ attack rolls. At what point does it slow the game down enough that it becomes not fun for the majority of the table (GM included)?

Part of me asks this because my very first PFS character was a ranger (and not a very good one), but I quit playing him at level 7 because I got bored of having to make so many attack rolls each round and it always felt like I was eating up more time than I should.

This is where I would commit HERESY and recommend the player use a dice-roller app with their standard attack bonuses pre-programmed. It has saved a great deal of time playing with a seeker-level TWF knife master/fighter locally.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

rayous brightblade wrote:
People are saying you can shoot all your shots with one gun and then with the other. But the full attack action in the SRD states "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." So you get to choose which weapon to attack with, but they have to alternate as they must be in order from highest to lowest.

The part I have bolded above is where you are getting confused. A clarification posting from SKR states that the high-to-low requirement only applies to the order of strikes with one weapon, and is not a global ordering.

The Exchange

trollbill wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew,

How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?

Andrew Christian wrote:
Is it probable that he rolls a 1 in 14 tries? Sure. But just as likely that he also rolls a x4 crit.

Andrew, again, I guess I'm missing something. Please bear with me.

1) With paper cartridges, the Pistelero still has a misfire chance of 1 or 2, yes? (Unless, as trollbill notes, she's also a Mysterious Stranger and using Stranger's Fortune, but we're not letting that character sit at our table.)

Actually, if he is using Alchemical Cartridges with a Double-Barrel Pistol, he misfires on a 1,2,or 3. The biggest problem I have seen is people not realizing this (or forgetting it) and assuming they only misfire on a 1. I'm sure I have forgotten a few times myself. You actually have to mentally train yourself to realize that numbers other than 1 can have detrimental effects on attack rolls. I have also seen people misinterpret the Gun Training rules as lowering the misfire chance on all attacks, not just attacks made with a broken gun.

Assuming they do follow the rule correctly, however, there are things they can do to reduced or mitigated misfires, such as, Reliable, Dwarf Favored Class bonus, Lucky, Shirt Rerolls, Gnome Eternal Hope, Slate Spiders, etc. Generally speaking, as a Gunslingers number of attacks goes up as he gains levels, so does his ability to mitigate misfires.

Quote:
2) How is the gunslinger auto-confirming her critical?

They don't, but since they attack touch AC, they usually have a good chance of confirming.

There is a misfire chance up to level 13 for pistoleros. Before this the pistolero having and taking a ton of shots is problematic due to misfires and having to use actions to clear the barrel.

I believe they opened up Society play to higher levels, although I don't play Society so I am unsure on this....

Scarab Sages

hotsauceman wrote:
My point is that how many of those builds have actually been seen? And how much of this is Internet sky Falling?

Interestingly no one is providing even anecdotal evidence that this gunslinger build is an actual problem. All I see are wringing of hands (and a few people who hated weapon cords before it came up since it didn't fit their ideal of fantasy).

As such I'm inclined to dismiss the desire to ban weapon cords out of hand.

Even if I were convinced that it is a legitimate issue, I doubt that banning weapon cords alone will provide the solution.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Kyle Baird wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
if you are going to play a character that involves lots of math, be able to do that math in a timely fashion.
Story time

Yeah, I see the point. It's like trying to find a three way balance between 1) the inherent inelegance of high level mechanics, 2) ensuring each player gets that moment to shine, and 3) maintaining an engaging table experience for all your players. That's not easy to do, especially in a 4-5 hour time slot with potentially 6 strangers with 6 builds you've never encountered before.

*Caubo gets a +1 for eating your food.

The Exchange

Matthew Trent wrote:
hotsauceman wrote:
My point is that how many of those builds have actually been seen? And how much of this is Internet sky Falling?

Interestingly no one is providing even anecdotal evidence that this gunslinger build is an actual problem. All I see are wringing of hands (and a few people who hated weapon cords before it came up since it didn't fit their ideal of fantasy).

As such I'm inclined to dismiss the desire to ban weapon cords out of hand.

Even if I were convinced that it is a legitimate issue, I doubt that banning weapon cords alone will provide the solution.

It wouldn't help much at all. The real problem lies not in the cords or in free actions...it lies in the Gunslinger class and with double barreled gun rules. If they had made using both barrels of a double barreled pistol into either a standard action or a once per full attack thing that would help a lot. If they had said that loading a gun is more than a free action and can only be done a number of times per round equal to the user's amount of iterative attacks +1 that would have helped a lot.

The 2 together would have fixed the issue.

I don't think weapon cords are any issue at all. I tend to hold people to the rules of items they use. In an online game we had a dude with 2 locking guantlets on so he couldn't drop his weapons. He fell off a ledge into a chasm and the module called for a reflex save to catch the rock ledge and prevent the fall. He made the save and the GM said "can't grab on if you have weapons locked in" and he fell 120' into the chasm and straight into a battle....all alone.
If you want an item for the good you need to pay for the bad also.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

This is not theoretical. These are builds many of us have seen wreck the fun for everyone else.

Lantern Lodge

Chris Mortika wrote:
For those playing along at home, that's what Panther Style feat chain is supposed to do

That build technique couples very well with snake style as well, Chris. I almost did that combo until I realized that an enemy could just not take their attacks of opportunity and shut it completely down.

The Exchange

Matthew Trent wrote:
hotsauceman wrote:
My point is that how many of those builds have actually been seen? And how much of this is Internet sky Falling?

Interestingly no one is providing even anecdotal evidence that this gunslinger build is an actual problem. All I see are wringing of hands (and a few people who hated weapon cords before it came up since it didn't fit their ideal of fantasy).

As such I'm inclined to dismiss the desire to ban weapon cords out of hand.

Even if I were convinced that it is a legitimate issue, I doubt that banning weapon cords alone will provide the solution.

I did see one and he was a problem but he self-corrected when he died.

He can target multiple targets to distribute his 400 average damage per full attack and there isn't much that can withstand that sort of offense once he gets to level 15. The only thing that ended him was a charging sea serpent that bit him, grabbed him and chomped him underwater while the party tried to get to him to help. 2 rounds total and he was done.
But usually a monster doesn't have a way to attack and then retreat to a distance where help can't get there too quick.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Todd Lower wrote:
Like Lormyr I use color coordinated dice and a rolling sheet with bonuses pre-computed to limit my time per turn. Like you I wouldn't play a character that took up too much of the table's time.

Is that the norm? We all have a small slice of the campaign as a whole, and in my piece of the pie (mmm... pie...) it's most often not the case that multiple attacks are nicely color coded, maybe a 30/70 or 40/60 split?

Combat pets at the table are limited to reduce the length of a player's turn in an encounter. Most of the "I summon a ton of crap" things are banned.

Should there be an artificial limit on the number of attack rolls that can be made per turn (including AoOs even? maybe?). Just spit balling, not thinking one way or the other.

One example I was thinking of is Mortika's monk build. First let me say, he played it fine, it broke my verisimilitude but the table didn't seem to mind and at the time I didn't have any sort of major problem with it. From what I understand of his build, he runs around provoking AoOs in order to get attacks on people. And then uses those attacks for trips and then uses greater trip to get more attacks. Then he actually gets his turn which he can then flurry. Through the course of the round, he might be making 10+ attack rolls. I specifically remember several encounters where it felt like most of the table did their one thing and then it became Chris's turn and it seemed to take 10x as long to adjudicate (arbitrary number based on foggy memory). Again, Chris handled it well, was very prepared to run the character, but it still seemed... I don't know. Excessive? Maybe unnecessary is a better word?

Most of the players with pets handle it well in my area. The trick is really being familiar enough with your character that you can quickly run through the attacks. That can often take less time than the player who doesn't know their bonuses and has to add everything up before their one attack (which often ends up the case with my Inquisitor, to my shame).

The issue with picking an arbitrary limit to the number of attacks is that it will make some already marginal builds even weaker and make Two-handed Weapon, Furious Focus, Power Attack, (possibly Vital Strike) builds stronger, and they are already the most powerful melee builds in the game. A two-weapon fighting ninja, for example, struggles to keep up, but could easily be throwing out 6 attacks a round at level 8 (Improved Two-weapon Fighting taken with 8th level Combat Trick, Haste, Ki point). If you limit that build to the same number of attacks as a THW Barbarian, the ninja (or just about any TWF build) becomes unfeasible.


Andrew Christian wrote:
This is not theoretical. These are builds many of us have seen wreck the fun for everyone else.

How is this ruining the fun for everyone else exactly?


Lormyr wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
For those playing along at home, that's what Panther Style feat chain is supposed to do
That build technique couples very well with snake style as well, Chris. I almost did that combo until I realized that an enemy could just not take their attacks of opportunity and shut it completely down.

Tangent: Start getting creative then! Get a sack and start trying to put it over people's heads. Go crazy nuts on what you want to do in combat, and see if the enemies will or will not take attacks on you.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

Kyle Baird wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It really gets to be a problem with a 10th level Sound Striker bard making 10 attack rolls with 10 saves and 10 damage rolls every turn. 30 dice rolled a round is insane.
Of course that's only the case if they have 10 targets. ;-)

We agree, but let me tell you the majority of people believe you can target the same target 10 times and they are VERY loud in their rejection of anyone opposing that view. I'd almost say violently opposed ;-)

Since there hasn't been a clarification to agree with our view and likely won't be one. We just get to have this fight every time a sound striking bard that expects to deal an average of 146 damage a round (after attacks and saves) for 20+ rounds sits down. Lots of fun.

Matthew Trent wrote:
All I see are wringing of hands (and a few people who hated weapon cords before it came up since it didn't fit their ideal of fantasy).

Hey I think they should be banned because of the power they provide for NON-Gunslinger builds (like mine.)

Note: I play a character with Weapon Cords because they are worth thousands for what they do for you and they don't take up an item slot.


John Francis wrote:
rayous brightblade wrote:
People are saying you can shoot all your shots with one gun and then with the other. But the full attack action in the SRD states "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." So you get to choose which weapon to attack with, but they have to alternate as they must be in order from highest to lowest.
The part I have bolded above is where you are getting confused. A clarification posting from SKR states that the high-to-low requirement only applies to the order of strikes with one weapon, and is not a global ordering.

First off, thank you for bolding, I was trying to remember how to do so and now that I can see your quote I do. Second, yet another SKR ruling I dislike. Doing your full attack with one weapon, 5 foot step, full attack with the second weapon just seems wrong. Oh well, this goes under my "a wizard did it" category of verisimilitude.

Lantern Lodge

CRobledo wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
For those playing along at home, that's what Panther Style feat chain is supposed to do
That build technique couples very well with snake style as well, Chris. I almost did that combo until I realized that an enemy could just not take their attacks of opportunity and shut it completely down.
Tangent: Start getting creative then! Get a sack and start trying to put it over people's heads. Go crazy nuts on what you want to do in combat, and see if the enemies will or will not take attacks on you.

Haha, well played sir, well played! The monk already ended up done with another build, but perhaps I will revisit this idea down the road with your fun suggestion in mind.

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