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As GM´s you are free to send players which such abusive builds away.In private PFS games, yes. Not so much at conventions or store games, Benjamin, not if it's a legal build.
Nobody's compelling a GM to fulfill his commitments, so you can just refuse to run a table if so-and-so is running his Gunslinger, 'cause you don't like the build. But so-and-so might have paid money to come to the con and sit at your table, and you might be the only GM willing to take that stand.
Con probably not so much as that is different environment as it is more of a one off instance. However, a player repeatedly being a jerk on a recurring game day can and SHOULD be asked to stop being a jerk and if they refuse they should be banned from said game day.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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And then you're the jerk who walked away from the table and let those guys who paid money sit there and do nothing. You will not be well loved when you take those kinds of stances. Not at all.As GM´s you are free to send players which such abusive builds away.In private PFS games, yes. Not so much at conventions or store games, Benjamin, not if it's a legal build.
Nobody's compelling a GM to fulfill his commitments, so you can just refuse to run a table if so-and-so is running his Gunslinger, 'cause you don't like the build. But so-and-so might have paid money to come to the con and sit at your table, and you might be the only GM willing to take that stand.
Though you can limit some abuses. You can't block reloading with a gun hanging on a weapon cord, because that's been ruled legit, but AFIAK you can block the multiple weapons on weapon cords thing since that's a sketchy interpretation and hasn't officially been ruled either way.
You can also exercise your right to limit free actions and in line with this FAQ you can feel free to crack down on any gunslingers who are going too far. Without doing so for anyone else, since that appears to be the intent.
At least until and unless Mike Brock says something official about the FAQ for PFS. Which would probably be a good thing.
I don't disagree. But, man, I hate thinking about having to have that argument every time it comes up.
Plus, if I'm using the recent development team FAQ, I'm singling out certain things and limiting them while leaving others alone. The gunslinger who just got his free actions limited is going to be pissed as he sits there and watches the archer do whatever he wants. That isn't even-handed, which is what PFS is supposed to be. That's selective, and many would say unfair.
"Unfair" is a stigma that should not be placed on PFS GMs due to following an FAQ guideline. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you cannot teach someone how to be arbitrary in the "correct" way.
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I think James is secretly a saboteur on the side of banning the weapon cord.I'll be clear. I think they should be banned.
But I strongly disagree that anything inside the item limits it in any way that is indicated above. I don't see anything that limits you from having 2 weapon cords on your hand and switching between them.
This means that at any table I'm running, I'll allow multiple cords on one hand and switching between them with a swift. I'll do so believing I'm following RAW. At least until I see a FAQ, banning, or PFS FAQ saying otherwise.
I don't disagree. You could have 20 weapon cords per wrist (or more if you wanted.)
But you couldn't use any of the items that are hanging on them.
As long as you have a weapon cord attached to you, you can't use any other item but the item attached to that weapon cord.
More than one cord makes all items mutually exclusive.
Why do people Hate gunslingers so much?
And how is a gunslinger getting 10 shots a turn? And what do weapons cords have to do with it?
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P1 = Primary Hand
P2 = Secondary Hand
Assume both double barreled pistols are loaded
P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrels
That's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.
Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.
The FAQ on free actions is a separate issue. Free actions are used in several mechanics and Weapon Cords use swift actions. An intersection does occur when gunslingers reload but the FAQ comes at it from the other topic.
Focusing on gunslinger reloads means your real problem is with the game balance of the gunslinger class and not weapon cords. The cords just exacerbated the situation.
For diplomacy, in my opinion the "low cost for what weapon cords do" argument seems to be the only one that really has some credence. They should be more costly. Given that spring loaded wrist sheaths are similar (yeah I said it) and in the same range of cost means the ban argument loses to existing precedent, else make Weapon Cords 5GP and we're done (and that's not worth an FAQ IMO).
Otherwise it's a popularity contest.
the problem isn't gunslingers
it's double barreled firearms
Maybe it is a Naivety. But what is wrong with that. That is a legal build. And This is a cooperative game, not a competitive. So why should cheese matter so much? To me it seems like stopping other peoples fun.
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Maybe it is a Naivety. But what is wrong with that. That is a legal build. And This is a cooperative game, not a competitive. So why should cheese matter so much? To me it seems like stopping other peoples fun.
Hey, that's actually a valid opinion. However, I will try to change your mind.
Most players want a healthy amount of challenge. I don't think most people want to grind their teeth and almost die every encounter, but if we could all run through encounters without any fear, this game would have a very different feel to it.
So let's say that players and GMs have a mutal understanding that some encounters will challenge the party. If we are to challenge the gunslinger with 14 attacks, we need really tough encounters, or at least things with a lot of health and damage reduction. Or a lot of enemies. In any case, we have to set the difficulty bar high. So what happens when there's no gunslinger? What happens when we have less powerful characters who are the assumed power level of the game, and we've made these encounters incredibly difficult to cater to the best character builds?
Well, the result is that grinding of teeth and dying every encounter. We're never going to have balance between all of these classes and builds, but at the point where one specific set of abilities are combining to make something far more powerful than anything else in the same category, we need to take a look at weakening it for the sake of everyone else.
Maybe it is a Naivety. But what is wrong with that. That is a legal build. And This is a cooperative game, not a competitive. So why should cheese matter so much? To me it seems like stopping other peoples fun.
Dunno how long it will be legal.
Yes it is a cooperative game, but part of that cooperation is to not make the other players you play with feel useless and unappreciated. It would be like being on a pickup basketball team with LeBron James who inbounded the ball to himself, never passed to any other team member and took every shot then came back to the rest of the team and said "We ROCK!"
My point is that how many of those builds have actually been seen? And how much of this is Internet sky Falling?
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Just as DOOM had nightmare difficulty and MMORPGs have raid content, I still think a lot of this issue could be addressed by a "hard mode" for each scenario. It could even be put out in a document just like the alternative victory conditions. Give out +33% gold or something and go nuts with the CRs. Power gamers love +33% gold and more NPCs to shoot 14 times.
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Maybe it is a Naivety. But what is wrong with that. That is a legal build. And This is a cooperative game, not a competitive. So why should cheese matter so much? To me it seems like stopping other peoples fun.Hey, that's actually a valid opinion. However, I will try to change your mind.
Most players want a healthy amount of challenge. I don't think most people want to grind their teeth and almost die every encounter, but if we could all run through encounters without any fear, this game would have a very different feel to it.
So let's say that players and GMs have a mutal understanding that some encounters will challenge the party. If we are to challenge the gunslinger with 14 attacks, we need really tough encounters, or at least things with a lot of health and damage reduction. Or a lot of enemies. In any case, we have to set the difficulty bar high. So what happens when there's no gunslinger? What happens when we have less powerful characters who are the assumed power level of the game, and we've made these encounters incredibly difficult to cater to the best character builds?
Well, the result is that grinding of teeth and dying every encounter. We're never going to have balance between all of these classes and builds, but at the point where one specific set of abilities are combining to make something far more powerful than anything else in the same category, we need to take a look at weakening it for the sake of everyone else.
everything is either tailored to the weakest builds (as published) or tailored to stronger builds
thing is, tailoring to the weaker builds encourages newbies and casuals to play because they don't have as much time to learn, tailoring to the power builds punishes casuals and rewards munchkins further
beefing up the encounters is little more than admitting you lost to the gunslinger, it is saying you can't challenge him under legitimate circumstances
using encounters used to challenge everyone else reasonably, but are easy for the gunslinger, tells the gunslinger he can delay his optimization a bit or help others catch up
when you arms race with one PC, you tend to leave the others in the dust
whether gunslinger, switch hitter ranger, pouncing barbarian, summoner, 2 weapon pistolero with twin double barreled pistols, crossblooded evokers, slumber witches, or any build that deals massive damage or inflicts a combat dominating condition
nobody does an arms race with the cleric, druid, or wizard
but they always arms race the martial guy who deals massive damage.
it's like the power of big numbers, shows more often, than the power of a million automatic solutions for every little thing.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Andrew,
How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?
And I'm sorry that the abundant ammo horse has left the barn. That much firepower wouldn't be so bad, if it were costing the gunslinger somewhere around 150 gp per round.
Not to mention, That is the 11th Level, Where The CHAR isnt even going to be playing for that much longer
How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?
It's Seeker territory, but "At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm." Another option would be the (+3 equivalent cost) Greater Reliable enhancement.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Andrew,
How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?
Stranger's Fortune, 13th level Pistol Training, Slate Spider...
There are also various ways to reduce the misfire chance down to only a 1, and if you roll a 1, there are also things that can let you re-roll it, like Lucky, Eternal Hope, Shirts, etc.
And I'm sorry that the abundant ammo horse has left the barn. That much firepower wouldn't be so bad, if it were costing the gunslinger somewhere around 150 gp per round.
I have never used Abundant Ammunition with my Gunslinger. I just never thought saving some gold was worth the loss of a full round of attacks.
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Gunslinger reloading cheese is not the only way a 0.5 gold item does affect action economy negatively. I have also seen:Wizards (and FAMILIARS) with weapon cords on wands so they can switch between wands faster than intended. (2 wands on weapon cords, 2 wands on Spring loaded wrist sheathes).
I have also had casters attach metamagic rods or staves to weapon cords, so they can move, "draw" the metamagic rod and cast on the same turn. Or to get around the "free hand" requirement.
I think if player tried this in any of the games I play in, we'd tell him it was ridiculous. After all, here's a caster basically tying a wind chimes-like apparatus to his arms to cheese having something akin to a glove of storing for super cheap.
Weapon cords look like chopping block material to me...
Yeah, add me as another who would like to see weapon cords go. The cost is way too low for the action economy savings. The glove of storing is balanced by its cost, while weapon cords are not.
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For what it's worth, I am one who is firmly in favor of weapon cords as they currently are. To date I have only played with one player running a weapon corded, two-weapon, double barrelled pistolero and his contribution to the scenario was neither game breaking nor leaving the other players in the dust. Yes, he did a lot of damage when he hit, but he became all but useless when his dice ran cold and he rolled a series of misfires during a multishot barrage. The pistols exploded and he was left trying to complete the scenario with a loaned crossbow from the wizard.
If it isn't a hard rule presently, then perhaps a modification would be to force a gunslinger using these multiple attack barrages to continue rolling all of their shots even if the target is dropped mid sequence to increase the likelyhood of rolling a misfire to the point of explosion, rather than attacking Free Actions and/or Weapon Cords. And in regards to methods to reduce the misfire chances, if I'm not mistaken, they all require a significant gold investment which limits their availability at lower-mid levels already...
And what about the actual purpose of weapon cords as intended? By banning them, you remove an important piece of low-level insurance for PCs that are subjected to losing their weapon through disarm, steal maneuvers or being stunned while in the water. It might not seem like a big deal when you're used to playing at tiers where you're raking in 2k a pop, or building your characters with 0 risk GM credit, but for players at the low tier, around the time they are first able to afford their initial +1 enchantment when gold is still limited losing yor weapon can cripple you..
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I think James is secretly a saboteur on the side of banning the weapon cord.I'll be clear. I think they should be banned.
But I strongly disagree that anything inside the item limits it in any way that is indicated above. I don't see anything that limits you from having 2 weapon cords on your hand and switching between them.
This means that at any table I'm running, I'll allow multiple cords on one hand and switching between them with a swift. I'll do so believing I'm following RAW. At least until I see a FAQ, banning, or PFS FAQ saying otherwise.
I don't disagree. You could have 20 weapon cords per wrist (or more if you wanted.)
But you couldn't use any of the items that are hanging on them.
As long as you have a weapon cord attached to you, you can't use any other item but the item attached to that weapon cord.
More than one cord makes all items mutually exclusive.
James...stop making me agree with Andrew...it's...unnatural....
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Are your people there so sensitive over their powergaing builds and cheese?Yes. Yes, they are.
Interesting thing, though: most of the players who fall into this category will simply shrug their shoulders when the tool they used to break the game gets banned. They may complain a little bit, but they eventually start looking around for the NEXT tool that will allow wide open breakage. It is how they derive fun from the game. I see it all the time in Magic (well, "all the time" being relative; I've been playing/judging Magic 20 years and have seen a lot of bannings - they don't happen willy-nilly the way my statement may lead you to believe).
But, seriously, I think you'd be surprised how upset people get when you use the simple phrase, "You can't do that," at the table.
You know...I know exactly the type of player your talking about. Maybe we should have a prisoner exchange program...we send you our trouble players for one week, we take yours the next? :P .
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P1 = Primary Hand
P2 = Secondary HandAssume both double barreled pistols are loaded
P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrelsThat's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.
Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.
Looking at this break down, it seems the culprits are 1) Double-barreled pistols and 2) weapon cords being ruled as not interfering with reloading.
So if 1) Double-barreled pistols are being banned, and/or 2) weapons cords ruled as interfering with reloading and only 1 per hand only, won't that help stop the problem?
Weapon cords by themselves feels like a very logical way for an adventurer to secure his weapon to him/herself.
In my hometown, policemen have an actual wire cord attaching their pistols to their belts to prevent losing or snatching of their pistols.
If is used in real life, why should it be banned in the game?
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The other thing to note is that as a player, my character doesn't go around with the weapon cords attached to his wrists - if ambushed my characters would either need to forego the cord or spend the Full Round action to attach it (I assume it is a FRA). Weapon cords are most of use if expecting battle.
I wonder whether other players aren't being so considerate of the realities of walking around having a 2 foot long tether between their wrist and a holstered weapon?
I think the kind of player who would abuse weapon cords is the kind who would never have their weapon sheathed. "Why should I? If they want me to put my weapon away, they'll have to make me!"
Other pearlers from that kind of player:
"I shouldn't have to roll for surprise. My character would never be surprised!"
"My character is a trained warrior. He would sleep with one eye open, and be able to wake instantly."
"I don't care what his Bluff score is, I shouldn't have to believe him!"
I've known a few of them in my time.
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P1 = Primary Hand
StuffLooking at this break down, it seems the culprits are 1) Double-barreled pistols and 2) weapon cords being ruled as not interfering with reloading.
So if 1) Double-barreled pistols are being banned, and/or 2) weapons cords ruled as interfering with reloading and only 1 per hand only, won't that help stop the problem?
Weapon cords by themselves feels like a very logical way for an adventurer to secure his weapon to him/herself.
In my hometown, policemen have an actual wire cord attaching their pistols to their belts to prevent losing or snatching of their pistols.
If is used in real life, why should it be banned in the game?
and again as has been stated ... there are 2 10k gp ways to recreate this
I dont think weapon cords are the issue ... its the double barreled pistols
P1 = Primary Hand
StuffLooking at this break down, it seems the culprits are 1) Double-barreled pistols and 2) weapon cords being ruled as not interfering with reloading.
So if 1) Double-barreled pistols are being banned, and/or 2) weapons cords ruled as interfering with reloading and only 1 per hand only, won't that help stop the problem?
Weapon cords by themselves feels like a very logical way for an adventurer to secure his weapon to him/herself.
In my hometown, policemen have an actual wire cord attaching their pistols to their belts to prevent losing or snatching of their pistols.
If is used in real life, why should it be banned in the game?and again as has been stated ... there are 2 10k gp ways to recreate this
I dont think weapon cords are the issue ... its the double barreled pistols
the issue isn't the weapon cords
i agree it's clearly the double barreled firearms
by taking a -4 to hit, you double your number of attacks
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Weapon cords by themselves feels like a very logical way for an adventurer to secure his weapon to him/herself.
In my hometown, policemen have an actual wire cord attaching their pistols to their belts to prevent losing or snatching of their pistols.
If is used in real life, why should it be banned in the game?
Yes, I don't like the idea of common-sense, real life solutions being banned. It seems artificial to be told that my character couldn't think of that.
Real life people do strap things to themselves for safety, high-rise construction workers don't want to drop their hammers from 1000 feet, either.The problem is they work too efficiently.
In the example of the police pistol being wired to the officer's belt; it makes stealing it more difficult, it makes it more difficult to knock it out of their hand and run off with it.
But if you imagine a scenario, where the officer is scuffling with a suspect, that wire is going to become tangled. It will get sat on, wrapped round someone's arm or leg, trapped under a desk, stuck in a closing elevator, etc.
It's sometimes going to be a liability, and it's very often going to be far more than a swift action, or a free action, to flick it back into the officer's hand, like he's 'walking the dog' with a yoyo.
Doing it repeatedly, drop, retrieve, drop, retrieve, drop, retrieve, drop, retrieve, is just silly.
Doing it with loaded weapons is an invitation to blow your own head off.
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As a player of a gunslinger with one single-barrelled pistol (with rapid reload, rapid shot and paper cartridges) and no weapon cords, I hope he doesn't get caught in the crossfire here, so to speak.Is there any reason not to use a musket in that setup?
He's got the pistolero archetype.
The nicely-painted mini I have has him holding a pistol.Pistols are cooler.
So the rules need to reflect that, by reiterating that any hand with a weapon swinging from it is hampered, and therefore does not count as a 'free hand', for the purposes of casting, or digging out spell components, foci, scrolls, potions, wands or ammunition.
Even if this is not the rules forum: This here would be the best solution.
As this is not possible, perhaps banning it for PSF (and only there) might be the best option.
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Not to mention, That is the 11th Level, Where The CHAR isnt even going to be playing for that much longer
For PFS, that is not necessarily true anymore. Between all the awesome adventure paths we are getting sanctioned, high level modules, and the new replay rules, it's not hard to get multiple characters in the high teens with enough play time.
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Andrew,
How does the gunslinger manage to make all those shots with paper cartridges, without rolling a misfire?
And I'm sorry that the abundant ammo horse has left the barn. That much firepower wouldn't be so bad, if it were costing the gunslinger somewhere around 150 gp per round.
That is the possible. Is it probable that he rolls a 1 in 14 tries? Sure. But just as likely that he also rolls a x4 crit.
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P1 = Primary Hand
P2 = Secondary HandAssume both double barreled pistols are loaded
P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrelsThat's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.
Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to alternate between hands when Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e. P1-P2-P1-P2-P1-P2-P1)? That's the way I've always played it.
Although it may not fix the issue, enforcing that sequence of Two-Weapon Fighting may alleviate the Weapon Cord abuse...
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*** RANT
My gunslinger is a musket master, but my youngest plays a pistol guy. So let me play devils advocate here.
So lets say weapon cords get banned. My son decides his character is still going to have his pistols attached via a strap to the wrist. So is the rule then going to be: It requires a what ??? move action to recover? Because now its like picking up an item? OK I am certain he can live with that.
Because we are not seriously going to tell people they cannot tie stuff to their wrists, right? That would be stupid!
We don't want to ban the item just the mechanic that gives people all these extra attacks with a full round action each round with a firearm, because yet again, the item that people are pissing and moaning over are firearms. I see no one complaining about strapping a crossbow to a weapon cord :-)
Lets say we ban the mechanic of attaching anything to your wrist at all, ever. At 11th level the boy will just buy a few extra double barrel pistols and with the quickdraw feat still be able to rain death on a full round action.
This seems to me like this one of those arguments where people are either not thinking about the next step, or what happens when the result is what people want or are maybe pretending like they are not thinking about it. I wonder if this is not some sort of Overton Window.
If weapon cords get banned. I think what happens next is that people are still upset about the gunslinger and the next argument is to ban the double-barrel weapons and then ultimately the class altogether.
So if people are getting so twisted up about the class, just ban the class already and get it over with!
My vote would be ban the double barrel guns and leave the weapon cords and the gunslinger.
END RANT ***
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P1 = Primary Hand
P2 = Secondary HandAssume both double barreled pistols are loaded
P1 = Shoot both barrels (attack action with -4 to both shots)
P1 = Reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P1 = Drop Weapon
P2 = Shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = shoot both barrels
P2 = reload both barrels
P2 = drop weapon
P1 = Retrieve weapon with weapon cord (swift action)
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = reload both barrels
P1 = shoot both barrels
P1 = Reload both barrelsThat's 14 shots essentially for an 11th level gunslinger with Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot. If they were hasted it would be 16 shots.
Round two, you start over again but in the opposite direction.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to alternate between hands when Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e. P1-P2-P1-P2-P1-P2-P1)? That's the way I've always played it.
Although it may not fix the issue, enforcing that sequence of Two-Weapon Fighting may alleviate the Weapon Cord abuse...
You are wrong. You do not have to alternate hands. You can distribute your attacks to any hand, in any order including several in a row with one hand, from highest BAB to lowest as long as attacks are made with both hands in the attack routine.
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You are wrong. You do not have to alternate hands. You can distribute your attacks to any hand, in any order including several in a row with one hand, from highest BAB to lowest as long as attacks are made with both hands in the attack routine.
Well, I learned something new today. Thanks.
Although this may be something that the Rules team needs to look at again. i.e. enforcing that alternating hands when Two-Weapon Fighting.
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Lets say we ban the mechanic of attaching anything to your wrist at all, ever. At 11th level the boy will just buy a few extra double barrel pistols and with the quickdraw feat still be able to rain death on a full round action.
I think part of the argument is that great, now this gunslinger had to spend a significant amount of gold (multiple pistols, probably magical) and a feat to do that.
In contrast, the weapon cord accomplishes the same with 0.1 gold.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Lets say we ban the mechanic of attaching anything to your wrist at all, ever. At 11th level the boy will just buy a few extra double barrel pistols and with the quickdraw feat still be able to rain death on a full round action.I think part of the argument is that great, now this gunslinger had to spend a significant amount of gold (multiple pistols, probably magical) and a feat to do that.
In contrast, the weapon cord accomplishes the same with 0.1 gold.
I think cost arguments regarding mundane items are rather silly. Look at the benefits of spending on 2 GP on a dagger compared to unarmed strike. Heck, its even better than spending a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. Or the cost benefits of spending 5 GP on a 50' rope compared to 2,500 GP on a Ring of Climbing? Should we be banning those items too?
I'm not saying Weapon Cords aren't a problem, just that the cost benefit argument is rather pointless.