Ok, so I realize there's a bunch of threads on this already, but hadn't found one that was perfectly on point yet.
I'm curious as to the efficacy of multi-classing a monk. Currently I'm a level 4 Quinggong/Drunken Master Monk. I'm looking into possibly multi-classing into either Ninja or Brawler.
The appeal of the ninja is that it continues with the monk's theme of versatility through both the skill points and the assorted ninja/rogue tricks. On top of that, the sneak attack damage is a nice little bonus, but not sure if it gets evened out if I take too many levels of ninja.
Brawler on the other hand would be a straight 4 level dip, which would net me 3 bonus feats as well as a +1 to hit and +3 to damage. With those feats I would certainly be taking Weapon Focus and Specialization, and likely Power Attack for the last one.
My goal is to remain versatile while also adding damage as best I can. Given that I am playing a monk, I'm obviously not concerned with total min-maxing, but at the same time I do not want to be completely ineffective in combat. I do; however, plan to continue with the Unarmed Strike flurries though for the flavor aspect, while using weapons when needed.
As for my current build, I have 18 Str with the added bonus of consistent access to Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person. Dex/Wis are both 16 with everything else falling behind a bit. Party consists of a Sorceror, Druid and Fighter, which is one reason I was leaning toward Ninja for the skill monkey aspect (realizing I give up the Trapfinding of the Rogue).
The Brawler dip seems to be best from a pure combat outlook, but will going into Ninja cripple me? If I do go Ninja, has anyone found whether its better to stick to just 4 levels or go to at least 10? Obviously the more levels of ninja, the more I restrict the number of flurry attacks unless I go through the TWF chain which seems to defeat the purpose a bit.
Feats so far: Improved Grapple, Fast Learner, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Dragon Style. Dragon Ferocity at 5th level seems a given.
Quinggong: Have taken Bark Skin in place of Slow Fall. Also like the look and flavor of Gaseous Form and Dragon's Breath. Possibly Scorching Ray and/or Restoration.
For Ninja Tricks: I'd be looking at Vanishing Trick, Fast Stealth and maybe Pressure Points and Darkvision. Obviously if I go to 10 or 12 I'd look at Unarmed Master and/or Invisible Blade.
All in all, is it doable to combine Monk/Ninja or will I be suffering too much? I don't mind not having massive DPS, but being a constant flurry of misses isn't much fun either. Any advice is appreciated!
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IMO Brawler multiclassing into monk for either 2 levels or 4 levels works well, but going the other way doesn't buy you much. I'm not sure that I understand why you are wanting to multiclass into Ninja. The full BAB aspect of Fury of Blows is going to get watered down if you multiclass in another 3/4 BAB class: you are going to have a hard time hitting stuff (Flurry of Misses).
I would suggest staying with monk and figuring out what you want to be good at: focus your feats there and look to Quinggong to help with your versatility. Improved Grapple is OK, but if you want to be really good at grappling you need Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
Dragon Ferocity is a great feat that will help your damage w/o negative impact to your accuracy. I'm not generally a big fan of Power Attack for monks, but given your party build it might be worthwhile in cases where you can't otherwise get through DR.
Hey All, thanks for the replies so far.
@Argus: My main reasoning for looking at ninja was a) flavor and b) some added versatility through both the ninja tricks and the added skill points/class skills. Our party is not well built for the skills side of the game and I was thinking that the added points and class skills could help a bit (I realize that rogue might be technically better in this sense given trapfinding, but was trying to stick with the ninja theme.
I'll be honest, for me, flavor and RP win out over pure DPS (obviously, I went with a monk ;p). However, I did want to make sure that I didn't just completely gimp myself by doing so. Your point about the 3/4 BAB is a good one. That was my main concern and I didn't know if that was something I could make up for with things like vanishing trick enabling me to get into position more often.
@XMorsX: Great idea about the sap master tree. My only question is that it says it applies when the target is flat footed. That's not the same as me simply being invisible and denying them their dex though is it? And I know its different than being in flanking. I admit I am still readjusting to the pathfinder ruleset. One other question on that line. Does the Unarmed Combat Master stack with the Monk's Robes for purposes of determining Unarmed Strike Damage? I try not to build my characters on the presumption of gear since its ultimately up to the GM what comes into the game, but am curious all the same.
@Sir Thugsalot: Thanks for the idea, I will definitely look into that. I admit that dipping into fighter seems to be better for purposes of pure combat effectiveness, but seems less flavorful. :p
Thanks again everyone for the help!
Does the Unarmed Combat Master stack with the Monk's Robes for purposes of determining Unarmed Strike Damage? I try not to build my characters on the presumption of gear since its ultimately up to the GM what comes into the game, but am curious all the same.Not only that, it should stack with the Monastic Legacy feat as well... which would put your unarmed damage dice higher than the base monk! However, that takes some dedication, you have precious few feats to play around.
Another magical item to look around would be ring of Ki storing; this can bring some of your Ninja Tricks ki cost down a bit (combining with the one that lets you use unknown ninja tricks gives you some amazing versatility).
Good to know! Unfortunately though Monastic Legacy won't do me any good since I'm a Drunken Master, meaning I lose the Still Mind feature and thus, don't qualify for Monastic Legacy. Knowing that I can still get full progression though is nice if I combine Monk's Robes with Unarmed Combat Mastery -- assuming of course I go at least 10 levels in ninja. I do like the ring though, can never have too much ki!
Can you use 3rd party material? If so, you can use the Super Genius games Talented Monk, and Talented Rogue to combine the ninja and monk seamlessly without having to multiclass. The talented line breaks classes and their archetypes into talents and edges that can be taken as you level up. And the talented monk has rules to combine it with the rogue (which includes ninja abilities). If allowed, it is by far your best bet.
Well, Argus has a point about flurry. I recommend that you talk with your GM into letting you get rid of it with MoMS or Sensei if you want to multiclass into Ninja. If you cannot or don't want to, the 3 (or 4 for the bonus feat) lvls of weap/master fighter seem to be a better dip. Or go straight Monk if you don't want to lose more skill points. You have 4 skill points per lvl right? You can raise Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth and Disable Device and be the party rogue.
I'm effectively getting 6 points a level between being human and fast learner so I'm certainly more skilled than my counterparts. The points were not so much the problem as wanting to get more class skills for the bonus and the added versatility of the assorted class abilities that would be picked up along the way.
Oh well, will have to think about it. While the added versatility would be nice, I don't want to get into a situation where I have to be flanking or charging, etc. to have a decent likelihood of hitting. Versatility and flavor can only go so far if you are completely useless in combat. ;p
I don't really see Ninja working that well. Both Ninja and Monk get their better stuff as they get to higher levels (and lots of stuff that scales with level), so combining the two seems like a bit of a 'worst of both worlds' deal, especially in terms of dealing damage to your enemies, as your attack bonus gets even worse than that of a regular monk (since you lose the 'flurry works at full bab' thing for your ninja levels).
In general. This is good advice in Pathfinder. Stay in one class.