Question about trample and charge


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I have question about trampling and charging, specifically about a Triceratop using it. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dinosaur.html#_dinosaur-tricera tops

There is a barbarian directly in front of the Triceratop attacking it. There is another character about 25ft behind the barbarian. The triceratop decides to use trample and powerful charge on the character behind the barbarian. Can it trample through the barbarian and charge the one behind him all on the same turn?


Kaldre wrote:

I have question about trampling and charging, specifically about a Triceratop using it. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dinosaur.html#_dinosaur-tricera tops

There is a barbarian directly in front of the Triceratop attacking it. There is another character about 25ft behind the barbarian. The triceratop decides to use trample and powerful charge on the character behind the barbarian. Can it trample through the barbarian and charge the one behind him all on the same turn?

No, both Trample and Charge are full round actions. You can only do one or the other.

The Triceratop could Trample over both characters in the first round, and then turn around and Powerful Charge the back character (who's now closer to it) in the second round though...


The GM is insisting that trample says it works like overrun and you can overrun on a charge.


Kaldre wrote:
The GM is insisting that trample says it works like overrun and you can overrun on a charge.

A GM can house rule what he wants, and be right. That's their prerogative (outside organized play).

That said, Trample is LIKE overrun...however, it is NOT overrun. It's a monster special ability.

PRD wrote:
Trample (Ex): As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path.

EDIT:Oh, and you normally can't overrun on a charge...there's a feat for that.

PRD wrote:

Charge Through (Combat)

You can overrun enemies when charging.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.

Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge.


Assuming that he house ruled it even though he shouldn't, could he still trample through one PC to charge another?

I'm pointed him to the following quote from charge.
"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
He said I was excluding pertinent sentences.


Kaldre wrote:
Assuming that he house ruled it even though he shouldn't, could he still trample through one PC to charge another?

If the house rule is that he can trample and charge in the same round through PC's, then sure. Why not? I hope the PC's can overrun and charge through PC's as well in the game.

Quote:


I'm pointed him to the following quote from charge.
"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
He said I was excluding pertinent sentences.

This is true for a charge, by RAW. To charge through someone, friendly or not, or over difficult terrain you normally need an additional feat or ability that specifically calls out being able to do that.

Again, though, in a home game, GM's are permitted to make their own house rules on how things interact. Everyone does. They're usually best when made in discussion and agreement with the players, in my opinion, but that's not the only way to bring them about. Rule 0:GM can make/change any rule to better fit their story/world/conception/idea they wish. BUT, it is supposed to be a group activity, so making them with the input and help of the group makes it more of a group effort (again IMO).


Nope PC can't charge through allies.

This is the first time it's come up for me and he thinks he's following pathfinder rules.


He said you are incorrect it says in overrun that it may be used as part of a charge.


Heres how it works. The Dm is confusing some issues.

First, Normall Over Run is a standard action. You move from point at to B then you decided to do the over run as a standard action.

You can do over run as part of a charge. This lets you.. double move in a straight line and get the Bonuses from charging.

To do what the DM wants to do there is a feat called charge through. Which was mentioned above. Additionally, Trample is its own seperate action. It just works like over run.


Kaldre wrote:
He said you are incorrect it says in overrun that it may be used as part of a charge.

Ok, that's nice.

However, I actually quoted the rules for trampling above and the feat you would need to overrun someone as part of a charge. Overrun is like trampling,but it is not equal to it.


Mojorat wrote:

Heres how it works. The Dm is confusing some issues.

First, Normall Over Run is a standard action. You move from point at to B then you decided to do the over run as a standard action.

You can do over run as part of a charge. This lets you.. double move in a straight line and get the Bonuses from charging.

To do what the DM wants to do there is a feat called charge through. Which was mentioned above. Additionally, Trample is its own seperate action. It just works like over run.

He thinks because trample says it works like overrun and you can overrun on a charge that he can do both.

I'm having a hard time convincing him otherwise. If I can point him to a faq from the dev team or somewhere in the rules to make it clear that would be helpful.


Waay too late I know, but logically (and specifically using the 20,000lb (4 ton = 3x4WD) critter
- It charges someone it really doesn't like and several poor unfortunate (and puny) humans get in the way.

Tricera-moving van attempts to overrun poor humans & The following happens
a) Each human can attempt to get out of the way (DC25) If so - all is good
b) If TriC makes each CMB check for each human that failed to avoid, each gets squished. possibly "proned"
c) If all overruns work, charge target is skewered but NOT trampled.
I.e Powerful charge stops at the target, NOT past the target = No overrun for him/her/it.

This appears to be both logical AND the intent of the rules for critters with TRAMPLE, but NOT characters with the Overrun feat.


Solid Necro, and for good reason too, since they all came to the wrong conclusion anyway. It doesn't say it works "like overrun," it says it works "JUST LIKE overrun." Which means other than the specified differences, it works exactly like overrun. Ergo, the triceratops could clearly charge with his overrun. He couldn't do any attack at the end of his charge or anything like that, but he could move up to double his distance in a straight line as part of this charge-trample.

Also, they were wrong about not being able to overrun as part of a charge w/o the feat 'charge through'.... "as a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square," << taken from the overrun entry in combat... All charge through does is allow you charge an enemy through another enemy (granting you a free overrun action against the enemy you're charging through to get to the other enemy) and then performing whatever your charge action was against the 2nd enemy (attack for damage, an applicable combat maneuver, etc..)

EDIT: The real question is why bother charging while using trample? I guess if something is really far away it's helpful.

The Exchange

If he wants it to go that way than build a druid barbarian.


RAWmonger wrote:
Also, they were wrong about not being able to overrun as part of a charge w/o the feat 'charge through'.... "as a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target,

They were right for the wrong reasons. You can't Overrun as a part of a charge because 1) action economy and 2) movement from a charge ends as soon as you reach a square from which you threaten the target. Overrun was obviously intended to be used during a charge, but you have to houserule it.


Specific rules overrule general rules... The general rule for overrun is a standard action, but trample (a full round action) *specifically* says it works just like overrun [other than its listed changes].

And you absolutely can overrun as a part of a charge RAW... There is no rule that says movement from your charge stops whenever you reach the opponent. TYPICALLY your movement stops because you cannot move both before and after an attack, as a general rule. Overrun is a different case. With an overrun charge, you charge the enemy, move to the closest square from which you can make your attack (in this case, your attack is an overrun combat maneuver check), and then you role your overrun check. If you fail, your movement stops right there. If you succeed or the enemy moves out of your way, you continue your charge movement (up to double your speed in a straight line as long as you encounter no obstacles).


Look, this feels like the 5th time I've had and eventually won this argument on this forum, and there's a buncha threads I missed and more from before my time. I'm not particularly interested in doing it again, so this will be my last post here. There is no argument to be had that, by RAW, you can Overrun during a charge. You've laid out a perfectly reasonable house rule (one functionally identical to my own house rule, though I also grant players a +2 on their CMB check), but it is a house rule. Action economy precludes it and even if it didn't, per charge rules that Overrun makes no effort to be more specific than, you have moved TO the first square you may legally attack from. It's that damn comma. If the action economy works we could probably ignore the other reasons it doesn't work, but there's just no way around that comma.

The reason I bash this point so persistently is that I think it's vitally important to have a good grounding in what the rules actually say, and adjust them from there. Then you can tell your players exactly what you're changing (and why) before the game ever starts. If you make an incorrect assumption about the rules, it won't occur to you to bring it up. I'm reminded of the time a one-off GM told a Magus, in midcombat, that he couldn't use Arcane Mark with Spellcombat because, even though it was legal, the GM thought it was cheesy and stupid. Which caused the regular GM to remark "wait, that's not legal, is it?" and the whole table dissolved into arguing about Magi. The whole thing could have been avoided (or been less disruptive) if the temp GM had brought that particular ruling up at session 0. Just tell your players you let them overrun during a charge and they do or don't get +2. I don't really care if you believe its RAW or not, just communicate with your players/ask your GM on rules you know are controversial, before they come up at the table.


Dallium wrote:
Look, this feels like the 5th time I've had and eventually won this argument on this forum, and there's a buncha threads I missed and more from before my time. I'm not particularly interested in doing it again, so this will be my last post here. There is no argument to be had that, by RAW, you can Overrun during a charge. You've laid out a perfectly reasonable house rule (one functionally identical to my own house rule, though I also grant players a +2 on their CMB check), but it is a house rule.

It is not a houserule, it is spelled out in black and white in the rules that you can in fact do so, and it is not an issue of action economy.

Overrun wrote:

As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge[b], you can attempt to overrun your target, [b]moving through its square.[b] You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.

When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.

The rules for Overrun explicitly state that this action can be taken as a part of a charge. Not a house rule, it is stated directly in the rules. There are other actions with specific action types that CAN be taken as part of other actions as well. Overrun is a standard action, however it can be taken as part of a full-round action made to charge, by RAW.

As for your other point, that charging stops at the space infront of your target. If you read the rules for Overrun, it's initial movement also stops infront of your target. You move through your opponent after a successful CMB or if your opponent willingly steps aside (denying you your attack).

Now let's look at the rules for charging and see what conflicts still exist, if any.

Charge wrote:
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge wrote:


You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). [b]You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Must stop in the closest space you can attack from, as mentioned, no different than the rules for Overrun. You charge to that space, and then make your CMB to overrun, if you succeed you can immediately move past them and knock them prone, if you fail your CMB then you remain in that space. That is by RAW.

Attacking on a Charge wrote:


After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

This is the only part that is unclear about Overrun, do you still get to attack, or is the overrun CMB inplace of the single melee attack? By RAW, there is no answer to this. Based on the rules it appears as though the intent is for the CMB to overrun to replace the attack roll of a charge when made as part of a charge.

Also by your claim, you wouldn't be able to make a Bull Rush as part of a charge even. Lets look at Bull Rush.

Bull Rush wrote:

[b]You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge,[b] in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

Will you look at that, a bull rush is a standard action that can be taken as part of a charge. It does explicitly replace the attack as well.

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