Quickest / Best Way to Acquire Point Blank Master?


Advice


As the title says. If it matters, it would be a lead in to False Opening and Rogue levels.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Avoid Rogue levels.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Avoid Rogue levels.

Yes, blah, blah, blah, Rogues suck, derp a derp. Ive played so many damn rangers and lore wardens for this exact reason. Im tired of playing a ranger every time I want skills. its getting old.

Stop TELLING people to not play Rogues. SUGGEST they play something else. Or, you know, just leave it alone since everyone on the board knows EXACTLY how you feel about Rogues a hundred times over.

In this case, I am experimenting with how well False Opening works, with either Point Blank Master or Close Quarters Thrower. Since False Opening can cause opponents to become flat footed, Rogue is really the best way to take advantage of that. ergo, AVOID ROGUE LEVELS defeats the whole purpose of this experiment, the feat, and the build in general.

Go find a new catchphrase; your current one is worn out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Really, just because I suggest not take Rogue levels, doesn't mean you should freak out and be rude.

I was trying to be helpful.

Liberty's Edge

3rd level Zen Archer


fighter level 4. at this level you take weapon specialization and retraing some another feat into PBM. or, the zen archer levels (f you want to multiclass, the fighter level are better, casue your FOB does not improve and you can latter take manyshots).


Be a Vivisectionist instead, so you get the Sneak Attack without the suck.

Dark Archive

Can you use 3pp stuff? The SGG Talented Fighter can get Safe Shot at 1st level (which is mechanically similar to PBM)...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Vivisectionist is a better choice.


Nicos wrote:
fighter level 4. at this level you take weapon specialization and retraing some another feat into PBM. or, the zen archer levels (f you want to multiclass, the fighter level are better, casue your FOB does not improve and you can latter take manyshots).

I disagree, you're losing one BAB for the first 4 levels of Zen Archer, and you get a TON of feats, abilities, and other things that are useful.

Super Saves
AC Bonus and Wis to AC when unarmored (variable)
Improved Unarmed Strike with all limbs
Ki Pool
Boosted Unarmed Damage
Two Bonus Feats
Boosted Perfect Strike at low level (Usable 4+(Other Class/4)) times per day
Weapon Focus (Bows)
Wisdom to Ranged Attack (Variable, but optional as well)
Point Blank Master

That's a lot for the price of 1 BAB (and possibly 4-8 hp).


mdt wrote:
Nicos wrote:
fighter level 4. at this level you take weapon specialization and retraing some another feat into PBM. or, the zen archer levels (f you want to multiclass, the fighter level are better, casue your FOB does not improve and you can latter take manyshots).

I disagree, you're losing one BAB for the first 4 levels of Zen Archer, and you get a TON of feats, abilities, and other things that are useful.

Super Saves
AC Bonus and Wis to AC when unarmored (variable)
Improved Unarmed Strike with all limbs
Ki Pool
Boosted Unarmed Damage
Two Bonus Feats
Boosted Perfect Strike at low level (Usable 4+(Other Class/4)) times per day
Weapon Focus (Bows)
Wisdom to Ranged Attack (Variable, but optional as well)
Point Blank Master

That's a lot for the price of 1 BAB (and possibly 4-8 hp).

It depends. if he only wants the fighter (or zen archer) levels ot have point blank master asap and then multiclass to rogue then the zen archer do not have the Ac bonus, ki pool.

Also, the fighter levels can be in weapon master for another +1 to atack and damage plus (later on) gloves of dueling.

And I still think that the lost of manyshots is major drawback specially taking into account that the FoB do not improve with the rogue levels.

EDIT: THe much better set of saving trhows is, IMHO, the major advantage going zen archer. it is a pretty important advantage though.


Nicos wrote:

It depends. if he only wants the fighter (or zen archer) levels ot have point blank master asap and then multiclass to rogue then the zen archer do not have the Ac bonus, ki pool.

Also, the fighter levels can be in weapon master for another +1 to atack and damage plus (later on) gloves of dueling.

And I still think that the lost of manyshots is major drawback specially taking into account that the FoB do not improve with the rogue levels.

You notice I didn't list FoB as a bonus right? That's because you wouldn't use it with this build. You'd take Rapid Shot and Many Shot as your monk feats (They are on the list), and just do iterative attacks with those feats.

The fighter build does have the advantage of the gloves, but then, for the same price, you can get a monk's robe, so I say that even's out.

And in for 3 levels, you might as well take the ki pool, it's a really nice ability and there are lots of uses for it.


And while you lose 1 BAB for general purposes, you don't really when Flurrying.

As far as WIS->Ranged goes, that's a double edged sword, because taking advantage of it under normal point buy conditions
means you will need to dump/not boost DEX beyond 11-13 at start, and put everything into WIS and STR,
you lose the WIS to AC bonus if you wear armor (unlike DEX) and for the first 3 levels before you get WIS->Ranged
you will basically have no Ranged Attack Bonus, even though most of your abilities are likely going into Ranged,
so you are probably best off focusing on melee at those levels (with UAS/Monk weapons?) with no abilities to synergize and 3/4 BAB.
So even if you're going 3+ levels deep to get PBM, there is strong arguments for not building around WIS->Ranged.

Fighter's other benefits would be qualifying for Weapon Spec, Manyshot, Martial Weapon & all Armor Proficiency, and HPs.
You will probably qualify for Manyshot around character level 10 (Fighter4+Rogue6).

On the other hand, Monks also gain a Ki Pool at 4th level, giving you limited ability to match Manyshot.
I would go for Monk myself there, even building around DEX and ignoring the Wis->Ranged.
You get several more Feats, and can get Ranged Combat 'dialed in' quicker, along with other free bennies
like awesome Saves and UAS (qualifying you for Style Feats) that it feels much solider to me.
You also get 4 skill ranks/level so you aren't gimping yourself in that regard like Fighter would,
and if the build is otherwise Rogue focused I'd rather not introduce a discrepancy in skill ranks/level like that.


mdt wrote:
Nicos wrote:

It depends. if he only wants the fighter (or zen archer) levels ot have point blank master asap and then multiclass to rogue then the zen archer do not have the Ac bonus, ki pool.

Also, the fighter levels can be in weapon master for another +1 to atack and damage plus (later on) gloves of dueling.

And I still think that the lost of manyshots is major drawback specially taking into account that the FoB do not improve with the rogue levels.

You notice I didn't list FoB as a bonus right? That's because you wouldn't use it with this build. You'd take Rapid Shot and Many Shot as your monk feats (They are on the list), and just do iterative attacks with those feats.

Manyshot is at level 6, an dyou lose another point in BAB (since you are not flurryng). At this point it is probably better to just stay as zen archer, wich do not seems to be what the Op have in mind.


Quandary wrote:
And while you lose 1 BAB for general purposes, you don't really when Flurrying.

Except with this type of build, you won't be flurrying (or at least, not after a level or two.

Quandary wrote:

As far as WIS->Ranged goes, that's a double edged sword, because taking advantage of it under normal point buy conditions

means you will need to dump/not boost DEX beyond 11-13 at start, and put everything into WIS and STR,
you lose the WIS to AC bonus if you wear armor (unlike DEX) and for the
first 3 levels before you get WIS->Ranged
you will basically have no Ranged Attack Bonus, even though most of your abilities are likely going into Ranged,
so you are probably best off focusing on melee at those levels (with UAS/Monk weapons?) with no abilities to synergize and 3/4 BAB.
So even if you're going 4 levels deep to get PBM, there is strong arguments for not building around WIS->Ranged.

Uhm, the ability is 'May use' not 'Must use'. So, if you get dex drained, and your wis is now higher (or, if you're a cleric/zen archer, you want to pump your wis anyway and just wear medium armor).

Quandary wrote:

Fighter's other benefits would be qualifying for Weapon Spec, Manyshot, Martial Weapon & all Armor Proficiency, and HPs.

You will probably qualify for Manyshot around character level 10 (Fighter4+Rogue6).

Except you won't qualify for most of those fighter feats, due to a lack of fighter levels, so that's moot too.

Quandary wrote:
On the other hand, Monks also gain a Ki Pool at 4th level, giving you limited ability to match Manyshot.

No, you get the ki pool, AND you use Manyshot. If you're dipping Zen Archer, you have no reason to use the flurry, so you're better off taking ManyShot/RapidShot as your monk bonus feats, and you get the ki pool as a bonus.

Quandary wrote:


I would go for Monk myself there, even building around DEX and ignoring the Wis->Ranged.
You get so many more Feats, and can get Ranged Combat 'dialed in' quicker, along with other free bennies
like awesome Saves and UAS (qualifying you for Style Feats) that it feels much solider to me.
You also get 4 skill ranks/level so you aren't gimping yourself in that regard like Fighter would (although some Archetypes change that).

Again, the wisdom thing is not required, it's an option. Options are always good, but you don't have to use it unless it's advantageous to you (again, the drained dex thing).


Nicos wrote:


Manyshot is at level 6. At this point it is probably better to just stay as zen archer, wich do not seems to be what the Op have in mind.

Then you just take Manyshot as a normal feat, and get Dodge instead. Or Far Shot, or whatever other monk bonus feat (point blank, precise, whatever).


Zen arcehr seems o be the best option with mdt aproach.


Nicos wrote:
Zen arcehr seems o be the best option with mdt aproach.

It really is one of the few really good dip classes in PF.


zen archer is the fastest. And don't play rogues. Be a ninja instead.


mdt wrote:
Quandary wrote:
And while you lose 1 BAB for general purposes, you don't really when Flurrying.
Except with this type of build, you won't be flurrying (or at least, not after a level or two.

I didn't think I was quoting any specific build of yours...?

Since I wasn't discussing your build, I was just sharing info from my actual experience, where Monk dip characters do in fact use Flurry.

mdt wrote:
Quandary wrote:

As far as WIS->Ranged goes, that's a double edged sword, because taking advantage of it under normal point buy conditions

means you will need to dump/not boost DEX beyond 11-13 at start, and put everything into WIS and STR...
So even if you're going 4 levels deep to get PBM, there is strong arguments for not building around WIS->Ranged.

Uhm, the ability is 'May use' not 'Must use'. So, if you get dex drained, and your wis is now higher (or, if you're a cleric/zen archer, you want to pump your wis anyway and just wear medium armor).

Again, the wisdom thing is not required, it's an option. Options are always good, but you don't have to use it unless it's advantageous to you (again, the drained dex thing).

Exactly where are you getting that I am writing that you 'must' use WIS->Ranged?

What I wrote is exactly saying that you CAN go 3+ levels into Zen Archer and NOT use it.
What I'm writing is that you don't need to "build around it", i.e. build for WIS>DEX.
I guess having a "backup plan" if you get DEX drained is another plus, but that isn't affecting how you "build for it".
(if you are interesting in taking Ranged Feats like Manyshot normally, that is a strong reason not to "build around" WIS->Ranged with WIS>DEX, because the Ranged Feats have high DEX requirements that a WIS>DEX build would have trouble meeting)

mdt wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Fighter's other benefits would be qualifying for Weapon Spec, Manyshot, Martial Weapon & all Armor Proficiency, and HPs.

You will probably qualify for Manyshot around character level 10 (Fighter4+Rogue6).
Except you won't qualify for most of those fighter feats, due to a lack of fighter levels, so that's moot too.

I think you're misreading that as well, and/or being motivated by some antagonism to the perceived agenda of what I wrote... Which is weird because I never was advocating a Fighter dip, I was just covering what such a build would look like if you did choose that approach... you know, just to be clear about what the comparison is being made to, and because I don't expect anybody to follow any one recommendation of mine as gospel, so might as well fairly cover all the options.

The only Fighter Pre-Req Feat there is Weapon Spec which it fulfills at Fighter 4. Manyshot isn't a Fighter Feat, but a Fighter build qualifies to take it normally faster than a Monk dip due to the Fighter's higher real BAB.

mdt wrote:
Quandary wrote:
On the other hand, Monks also gain a Ki Pool at 4th level, giving you limited ability to match Manyshot.
No, you get the ki pool, AND you use Manyshot. If you're dipping Zen Archer, you have no reason to use the flurry, so you're better off taking ManyShot/RapidShot as your monk bonus feats, and you get the ki pool as a bonus.

I'm not sure why you're starting off with "no" as if I was making some claim contrary to some agenda of yours...? Anyhow, I find plenty of reason to use Flurry even with a Monk dip, it's bonus attack even with just a dip matches Rapidshot, and the Ki Pool bonus attack on top can match Manyshot (until you use up the Ki Pool). Neither Rapid/Manyshot are compatable with Flurry, and the bonus Ki attack only works with Flurry, so they're mutually exclusive and similar even if Ki Bonus Attack is more limited. For the OP's specific build, the bonus Ki attack when Flurrying is better (within it's limited usages) because it's a real extra attack that Sneak Attack applies to, which doesn't work with Manyshot. Of course, with your build (which I wasn't discussing before) you could Flurry and use Ki Pool until you use it up, and then switch back to Rapid/Manyshot at 1 less effective BAB, but that still seems like the build is using Flurry to me...?

It's great that you've explained this other build of yours which I wasn't trying to address originally, although to me personally it feels like a steep cost to buy my way thru all the regular Ranged Feats to replicate what can already be done with Flurry... I personally always have lots of other usages of Feats (and the OP seems to also have certain Feats in mind), so dedicating so many Feats just to enable Manyshot (when Flurry+Ki can replicate it to a limited amount) feels like a high price to me. I normally think it's best to spend the Monk bonus Feat on Precise Shot to get that staple of archery out of the way ASAP, but if you have to buy PBS and Rapidshot that becomes less do-able out the gate... PBS has some value, but Rapidshot doesn't do anything on it's own vs. Flurry. I would consider that if I was going for a ZenMonk/Fighter multiclass though, where Feats are less of a concern than for a Rogue build.


I'm not being antogonistic, please put that down to text walls.

The reason you don't want to use flurry after dipping is because it doesn't scale.

Example :

BAB (3) Monk 4 Flurry : +2/+2
BAB (3) Monk 4/Rogue 1 Flurry : +2/+2
BAB (4) Monk 4/Rogue 2 Flurry : +3/+3
BAB (5) Monk 4/Rogue 3 Flurry : +4/+4
BAB (6) Monk 4/Rogue 4 Flurry : +5/+5
...
BAB (15) Monk 4/Rogue 16 Flurry : +16/+16

Yes, you're getting 2 shots at +16 at higher levels. But you're losing armor class to do it. However, you could instead have :

BAB (15) Monk 4/Rogue 16 (Manyshot, Rapidshot) : +13 (x2 Manyshot)/+13 (rapid shot)/+8/+3

If the first one hits, you do double damage, if the second hits, triple damage, and so on.

Remember, you don't advance your number of flurry rounds unless you take more monk levels.

The above is if you're going rogue. If you're doing something else (such as a Divine Hunter Paladin, or Archery Ranger), you get the following :

BAB (3) Monk 4 Flurry : +2/+2
BAB (4) Monk 4/Paladin 1 Flurry : +3/+3
BAB (5) Monk 4/Paladin 2 Flurry : +4/+4
BAB (6) Monk 4/Paladin 3 Flurry : +5/+5
BAB (7) Monk 4/Paladin 4 Flurry : +6/+6
...
BAB (19) Monk 4/Paladin 16 Flurry : +19/+19

Yes, you're getting 2 shots at +16 at higher levels. But you're losing armor class to do it. However, you could instead have :

BAB (19) Monk 4/Paladin 16 (Manyshot, Rapidshot) : +17 (x2 Manyshot)/+17 (rapid shot)/+12/+7/+2

The point is, if you're dipping from a full bab class, you are better off not flurrying usually, and instead using Manyshot/Rapidshot. Even in a 3/4 BAB class, you're often better off doing this again because you can wear armor. A cleric could go the turtle route (mithral full plate), low dex, and with a four level dip, be using their Wisdom (casting stat!) and be using Rapid/Manyshot to deliver nearly the same attacks as a corresponding Zen Archer monk, with +8 or so AC, and the same to-hit.

I just don't see, for most classes you'd dip from, the flurry being worth losing your AC from actual enchanted armor.


EsperMagic wrote:
zen archer is the fastest. And don't play rogues. Be a ninja instead.

While the Op specifically called rogue I woudl agree that zen archer 4/Ninja x will be the best option since the ki pools will stack.


mdt wrote:

I'm not being antogonistic, please put that down to text walls.

The reason you don't want to use flurry after dipping is because it doesn't scale.

[Rest of quote deleted]

I'd argue that the BAB for Flurry of Blows does stack with other classes, although gaining additional flurries would still be dependent on monk levels. Read the bolded text.

Flurry of Blows:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

For his Monk Class Levels . . . I'd take this to mean the BAB of other classes may be used durin a Flurry.


Errant Inlad wrote:

I'd argue that the BAB for Flurry of Blows does stack with other classes, although gaining additional flurries would still be dependent on monk levels. Read the bolded text.

yeah it does, nobody should dispute that. But that extra attack and that +1 BAB from flurry of blow do not compete with rapid shot + many shot.


Errant Inlad wrote:
mdt wrote:

I'm not being antogonistic, please put that down to text walls.

The reason you don't want to use flurry after dipping is because it doesn't scale.

[Rest of quote deleted]

I'd argue that the BAB for Flurry of Blows does stack with other classes, although gaining additional flurries would still be dependent on monk levels. Read the bolded text.

** spoiler omitted **

For his Monk Class Levels . ....

If you actually read the entire post, you'll see that is exactly what I said.


mdt wrote:

I'm not being antogonistic, please put that down to text walls.

The reason you don't want to use flurry after dipping is because it doesn't scale.
.....
BAB (15) Monk 4/Rogue 16 Flurry : +16/+16
.....
BAB (15) Monk 4/Rogue 16 (Manyshot, Rapidshot) : +13 (x2 Manyshot)/+13 (rapid shot)/+8/+3

You would still get iterative attacks due to BAB. Just not additional flurry attacks that you would get at 8th and 15th level monk. Flurry works like two weapon fighting, so you get the rest of your "main hand" attacks.

So it would be +16/+16/+11/+6 using your math above. Which actually I think should be +14/+14/+9/+4 (Effective BAB of 16 when flurrying.. -2 for flurry)

Both get 4 attacks the Flurry is at a higher bonus, but there is no manyshot arrow.


Golo wrote:


You would still get iterative attacks due to BAB. Just not additional flurry attacks that you would get at 8th and 15th level monk. Flurry works like two weapon fighting, so you get the rest of your "main hand" attacks.

So it would be +16/+16/+11/+6 using your math above. Which actually I think should be +14/+14/+9/+4 (Effective BAB of 16 when flurrying.. -2 for flurry)

Both get 4 attacks the Flurry is at a higher bonus, but there is no manyshot arrow.

The numbers come straight from the Monk table (-1/-1, +0/+0, etc).

I'm going to have to think about the iterative attacks. The problem is, the table spells out how many you get per level explicitly. But the text section says 'as if two-weapon fighting'. I hadn't honestly notice the contradiction between the way the table specifies attacks by level and the text describing it differently.


mdt wrote:
Errant Inlad wrote:
mdt wrote:

I'm not being antogonistic, please put that down to text walls.

The reason you don't want to use flurry after dipping is because it doesn't scale.

[Rest of quote deleted]

I'd argue that the BAB for Flurry of Blows does stack with other classes, although gaining additional flurries would still be dependent on monk levels. Read the bolded text.

** spoiler omitted **

For his Monk Class Levels . ....

If you actually read the entire post, you'll see that is exactly what I said.

Nah, I read it. I misunderstood though. Does not scale, number of flurry rounds, jumped outta the text. Both were you mentioning how additional flurry attacks wouldn't be attained, whereas I believed you to mean Flurry BAB doesn't scale without Monk Levels.


Cathulhu wrote:
As the title says. If it matters, it would be a lead in to False Opening and Rogue levels.

I'd focus on Close Quarters thrower. As a Human Rogue, you can attain it by 2nd level. Take Dodge and Weapon Focus at first level, then use your first Rogue talent as Combat Trick to get Close Quarters Thrower. Then by 3rd level you can pick up False Opening.

{Edit} This build benefits heavily from Two-Weapon Fighting or Flurry of blows. You could instead build your rogue with Two-Weapon Fighting and Dodge at 1st Level, Combat Trick for Weapon Focus (Which I think has BAB 1 requirement.) Third level pick up Close Quarters Thrower, THEN get False Opening. Additionally, Offensive Defense is hella useful for two-weapon fighting rogues.

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