Readied action and 5ft step


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I have heard this thing about readying action cheese, and wanted to know what you think.

You ready an action to hit and 5ft step away as soon as enemy starts attack.
So enemy closes in, starts attacking, you interrupt, hit them and step away. You are now out of their reach, and they cannot move up again.

Is this real or not? I know its cheesy, but still... is it raw legal


According to "Ready", you can take a 5-foot-step as long as you do not otherwise move during "the round".


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The search feature is your friend. If you search for "readied action" you will find this thread, among others.


So I can ready an action to hit and 5ft step back after the hit?
And the enwmy cant do jack unless they got reach?


CRB wrote:

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readied actions are performed in between your turns, 5-foot steps in your own turn. So nope, no 5-foot steps as part of a readied action.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
The Quite-big-but-not-BIG Bad wrote:
Readied actions are performed in between your turns, 5-foot steps in your own turn. So nope, no 5-foot steps as part of a readied action.

Incorrect.

PRD wrote:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.


The PRD wrote:

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

Bolded for Emphasis. (and Ninja'd by SlimGauge)

Yes, you can take a 5-ft step as part of a readied action, if you did not move otherwise during the round.


@SlimGauge

I stand corrected, not sure how I missed that.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Renen wrote:
So I can ready an action to hit and 5ft step back after the hit? And the enwmy cant do jack unless they got reach?

Only if you did not move any distance during the turn that you spent a standard action to ready your own attack-and-step. And the enemy can do something completely different, such as throw his weapon at you or quickdraw (if he had the feat) a different weapon to throw at you (if the original action he'd chosen is compatible with doing that).

If he'd originally approached you using a single move action (and used all of it up), he's still got his swift and the standard action that he was going to use to attack you with to use.

If he was using ride-by or fly-by or spring attack, your interruption happened before his attack, so he's still in the riding/flying/springing part of his action.


Renen wrote:

So I can ready an action to hit and 5ft step back after the hit?

And the enwmy cant do jack unless they got reach?

Depends on if the enemy has any movement left...if they do, they can continue to move another 5' and attack you like they were intending.


Sniggevert wrote:
Renen wrote:

So I can ready an action to hit and 5ft step back after the hit?

And the enwmy cant do jack unless they got reach?
Depends on if the enemy has any movement left...if they do, they can continue to move another 5' and attack you like they were intending.

I agree with that, the logic being that the readied action happens before the action that triggered it. So, if you ready to attack when someone attacks you, they move up, you attack and 5' step, and then they go on about their business. It would be no different if you readied to attack as soon as an enemy was in reach: They are moving towards the caster behind you, you attack, they finish their move.


It depends on how you word your readied action:

If you say "I ready an action for when an enemy steps up next to me", well, you fail unless he was at the very end of his movement. If he isn't, then you will attack and 5'-step, but his movement is not done so he'll just move 5 more feet and attack you anyway.

But if you say "I ready an action for when an enemy attacks me", then it works. He moves next to you, ends his move action and begins his standard action to attack you. Your readied attack goes off and you 5'-step away from him and now he can't reach you and he cannot move any more this round.

But, you did interrupt his Standard action before he took it, so he can take any other standard action, including using it to move next to you. Now on your turn, he's already next to you so if you try the trick again, he starts to attack, you interrupt it BEFORE it happens to attack him and 5'-step away, he still has his move action and his standard action, and he can even 5'-step next to you and full-attack you.

So it's not as useful as it seems, but you can gain one extra attack at the beginning of a fight using this trick against one enemy, if he doesn't have reach, if he doesn't have a missile or magical attack, if he doesn't have the Step Up feat, etc.


Also keep in mind that, at best, you are readying a standard action attack. No iteratives, no full-round actions, etc.

This is a pretty situational little tactic that for the most part will be less than ideal against multiple enemies and/or vastly reduce your damage output at higher levels.


Yes, a character can ready the action to attack and 5 foot step away with the condition being "when an enemy attacks me in melee".

But, the enemy could also move right up to the character and ready an action to attack and 5 foot step away with the condition being "when this PC attacks me in melee".

It goes both ways. Only way it is overpowered is if the players know how to play the game more than the GM does.

What one guy said above is also true. If you 5 interrupt their attack and 5 foot step, next turn they'll just full-attack you. The way this gets REAL use is by teamwork. You do the first readied action, then your teammate 5 foot steps and readies the same action, or grapples, or disarms, or trips. Then YOU go up and full-attack. So effectively, this guy who was charging you gets smacked once, into a grapple/trip, into getting hit by a full-attack.


But 1v1, vs someone w/o reach it would work?


@Alarox: Or the enemies are mindless :)


Yeh. Say im fighting a mindless enemy with no reach. Would this tactic work?


The Quite-big-but-not-BIG Bad wrote:
@Alarox: Or the enemies are mindless :)

True, but read my edit. If you DON'T ready that action and just take the charge, you get hit with one attack and they get hit with a full-attack. If you DO ready that action and attack first, you get hit with a full-attack and he gets hit with a single attack. Basically, a 1v1 battle it isn't that big unless you use Reach. But if you're with allies then it becomes strong.


Renen wrote:
Yeh. Say im fighting a mindless enemy with no reach. Would this tactic work?

Do you have reach?

You don't have reach:
You ready to attack and 5 foot step, he charges, you attack and 5 foot step, he follows on his turn and full-attacks you. In this case you just delay him one round and let him get the first big hits in.

You have reach:
You ready to attack and 5 foot step, he charges, you attack and move, he has to use a move action to follow which provokes an attack of opportunity. On your turn you 5 foot step and full-attack. In this case, you get to hit with an attack of opportunity, a normal attack, and a full attack, while he only hits you once.


@Alarox: Oh god, I've got this vision of a party of PCs and a group of Hobgoblins, all armed with reach weapons, just staring at each other waiting for the other to attack so they can do the combo you described.
A Mexican Ready-off!


Sorry, can you explain the "you got reach" option again?
Why does he use the move action to follow for example?


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Renen wrote:
Yeh. Say im fighting a mindless enemy with no reach. Would this tactic work?

If I'm the GM and you're fighting one mindless skeleton. First you must win initiative or it's too late, so lets assume you do:

Spoiler:
(I am assuming everyone keeps missing for this example - obviously, if you destroy the skeleton on your first attack, the rest of it is moot).

Round 1:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton moves and tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack, 5'step.
Skeleton moves next to you. It's mindless, so it's not using strategy - it is just using its actions to be close to its target.
Result: you got one attack, skeleton got no attacks. Your trick worked.

Round 2:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack, 5'step.
Skeleton 5'steps next to you and full attacks (fortunately, it only gets one attack anyway, but if it could attack multiple times, it would be able to).
Result: You got one attack, skeleton got one attack. Your trick didn't help at all.

Round 3:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack, 5'step.
Skeleton 5'steps next to you and full attacks.
Result: You got one attack, skeleton got one attack. Your trick didn't help at all.

Etc.

So, as you can see, your trick only works on the first round. After the first round, it's just wasting your time and mine - you could just stand there, no 5'step, take your attack first and then the skeleton takes its attack, either way, with your trick or without, you make one attack first and the skeleton makes one attack after you.

It is worse if you're both dual-wielding:

Spoiler:
(I am assuming everyone keeps missing for this example - obviously, if you destroy the skeleton on your first attack, the rest of it is moot).

Round 1:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton moves and tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack only one time because you cannot ready a full attack, 5'step.
Skeleton moves next to you. It's mindless, so it's not using strategy - it is just using its actions to be close to its target.
Result: you got one attack, skeleton got no attacks. Your trick worked.

Round 2:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack only one time because you cannot ready a full attack, 5'step.
Skeleton 5'steps next to you and full attacks (this time it has two attacks, so it attacks twice).
Result: You got one attack, skeleton got two attack. Your trick actually hurts you.

Round 3:
You ready this trick.
Skeleton tries to attack.
You interrupt, attack only one time because you cannot ready a full attack, 5'step.
Skeleton 5'steps next to you and full attacks.
Result: You got one attack, skeleton got two attack. Your trick actually hurts you.

Etc.

So in this case, the skeleton actually gets more attacks than you do if you use this trick (but if you don't, you can both just swing away and you'll both get the same number of attacks) so using this trick when you're both dual-wielding hurts you if you do it for more than just the first round.


But you can still smell the cheese with some builds


Renen wrote:

Sorry, can you explain the "you got reach" option again?

Why does he use the move action to follow for example?

Sorry, the readied action should be "if he gets within this range on a charge" or something along those lines. That way you attack and 5 foot step to the side before he gets within 5 foot step range. This way, he has to use a move action to get in range.

------------

BUT, this one uses an attack of opportunity first at the cost of your enemy getting a full attack:

Ready the action to 5 foot step and attack when the enemy tries to attack you. You get the initial attack of opportunity since he's using a move action through your threatened area. Then, you 5 foot step and get a free attack. Afterward he full attacks though, so the first one is better.

Or, you can use two free trip maneuvers instead of attacks, then stab him with a full attack and get a free attack of opportunity when he stands up.


The Quite-big-but-not-BIG Bad wrote:
But you can still smell the cheese with some builds

Actually, Sidestep is overrated.

"Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may move 5 feet as an immediate action so long as you remain within that opponent’s threatened area. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement."

This does not let you stop their full attacks when they get into your range, nor does it let you 5 foot step so that you can hit them. Sidestep by itself is absolutely useless for a Reach user, and the only way Improved sidestep helps is by letting you dictate which direction your 5-foot step dance heads across the board, which is nice but isn't a necessity.


I disagree that this works differently based on the ready wording. You don't "end a move action", you simply stop moving.

Realistically, if the player readies for "when he attacks me", the attacker can continue his move action as long as he has the movement. If he had *precisely* enough movement to get to the PC before the step, then he would need to expend a second move action to get there. In that case this plan works by trading your move-action to save you from one attack, but it's heavily meta-gaming the distance rules.

RAW, if the player readies for "when he attacks me", and then steps away, he's never being attacked, so his ready doesn't go off.

I think I've encountered this before, and allowed the attack and the 5' step, but given the attacker their attack prior to the 5' step occurring. If the PC takes the time to make an attack, the opponent should get one as well.

You can explain that RAW as the opponent using *his* standard action to ready an attack if attacked or if the PC moves away.


Alarox wrote:
Renen wrote:

Sorry, can you explain the "you got reach" option again?

Why does he use the move action to follow for example?

Sorry, the readied action should be "if he gets within this range on a charge" or something along those lines. That way you attack and 5 foot step to the side before he gets within 5 foot step range. This way, he has to use a move action to get in range.

------------

BUT, this one uses an attack of opportunity first at the cost of your enemy getting a full attack:

Ready the action to 5 foot step and attack when the enemy tries to attack you. You get the initial attack of opportunity since he's using a move action through your threatened area. Then, you 5 foot step and get a free attack. Afterward he full attacks though, so the first one is better.

Or, you can use two free trip maneuvers instead of attacks, then stab him with a full attack and get a free attack of opportunity when he stands up.

So you are charged from (lets say) 20 feet.

You have an attack readied to hit him when he is within 10ft (your reach).
You then step back. What stops him from just continuing the charge?


@Majuba
I think the main point is that readied action interrupts an action
So enemy moves, ends movement, starts his standard attack.
He cant move anymore unless he got feats for that.
You attack and move away.
He is standing there, unable to use his already finished move action, with the standard action remaining (or possibly being wasted, seeing as he alreasy started to attack, but now conditions have changed and he has no target)


even if you want to rule it that way, DM Blake's great spoilered explanation above essentially negates the tactic after the first round


Lamontius wrote:

Also keep in mind that, at best, you are readying a standard action attack. No iteratives, no full-round actions, etc.

This is a pretty situational little tactic that for the most part will be less than ideal against multiple enemies and/or vastly reduce your damage output at higher levels.

It's situational, but in the right situations it's very useful. (Even assuming you can't "toro" the attacker and avoid getting hit.)

1.) If the enemy has more attacks than you, it's almost always better to wait and let them come to you, foregoing their full attack and letting you take a full attack instead in the first round.

2.) If the enemy has significantly more attacks than you, it's sometimes even better to accept an AoO from moving away to force them to deny the full attack.

3.) If you have greater reach than the enemy, you will get an advantage on attacks the first round (readied and AoO) and be on parity after that by moving away and readying.

4.) Combat maneuvers with a reach weapon and readied action can be a great form of control. They can't finish their charge if they're tripped, who cares if they finish their charge after they've been disarmed?

Example: You are facing a monster with Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake (two claws.) The bite is probably it's second most powerful attack with the rake being the most powerful. You have 1 iterative attack. So the monster out-attacks you 4-2. If you ready on the first round instead of moving in and attacking, you will be 1-1 against the monster for the first round and then you can get your full attack sequence in the second round before the monster acts. (You could also delay, let the monster attack you, and get your full attack off in the first round, but that depends on the monster cooperating more.) You also have the benefit of avoiding the rake attack.

If you have 10' reach and the monster has 5' reach, the readied attack now becomes a readied attack + an AoO, 2-1 advantage in the first round. If you move away and accept the AoO, the subsequent rounds leave you at a 2-2 parity in attacks. Much better since both attacks are at your highest attack bonus instead of the second one being 25% less likely to hit.

Even at higher levels, say you're got BAB 11 with 2 iteratives facing a Glabrezu with Bite, Claw, Claw, Pincer, Pincer, Rend (2 Pincers.) You're outnumbered 6-3 and it's more like 6-1.5 or so since your iteratives are at -5 and -10. If you move and ready, and can match it's reach, you cut the attacks down to 2-1 and your incoming damage down by about 2/3. You also get the advantage of choosing when to stop and full attack and get to full attack first. It turns rocket tag into a battle of tenacity and give your party mates more chances to act as well as improving action economy ratio.

It's not the best option in all situations, but it's definitely a tactic to keep in mind. It's also not necessarily a tactic you want to use for the entire fight, but there are times when you might. I like to use it on my inquisitor when I face enemies with multiple attacks: He has a glaive but doesn't get iteratives yet, this tactic gives me two attacks a round to their two attacks instead of 1 attack to their three or four. This can be a bad tactic when the enemy has Pounce or Grab, though.


Renen wrote:

@Majuba

I think the main point is that readied action interrupts an action
So enemy moves, ends movement, starts his standard attack.
He cant move anymore unless he got feats for that.

Yes, he can.

Enemy moves, is about to attack, you attack readied - interrupting that action entirely, and step away. He continues his move action after you, then attacks. He never took his standard action, so he is not restricted from further movement.

You can move 10', say hello to your neighbor, move 10' more, cast quickened charm person on the neighbor's spouse, move 10' more and cast open/close on your mailbox. The only restriction is that you can't perform a standard action during a move action (without spring attack / flyby attack).


Majuba wrote:
Renen wrote:

@Majuba

I think the main point is that readied action interrupts an action
So enemy moves, ends movement, starts his standard attack.
He cant move anymore unless he got feats for that.

Yes, he can.

Enemy moves, is about to attack, you attack readied - interrupting that action entirely, and step away. He continues his move action after you, then attacks. He never took his standard action, so he is not restricted from further movement.

You can move 10', say hello to your neighbor, move 10' more, cast quickened charm person on the neighbor's spouse, move 10' more and cast open/close on your mailbox. The only restriction is that you can't perform a standard action during a move action (without spring attack / flyby attack).

This is not correct.

You're forgetting that the attacking creature ended his move action. You can't start a move action, use a standard, then continue a move action. A move action must be used in its entirety or ended.
The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action". Then the standard action begins and is interrupted. BUT this means the move action is ended.

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

Renen wrote:

@Majuba

I think the main point is that readied action interrupts an action
So enemy moves, ends movement, starts his standard attack.
He cant move anymore unless he got feats for that.
You attack and move away.
He is standing there, unable to use his already finished move action, with the standard action remaining (or possibly being wasted, seeing as he alreasy started to attack, but now conditions have changed and he has no target)

This exactly.


Alarox wrote:

This is not correct.

You're forgetting that the attacking creature ended his move action. You can't start a move action, use a standard, then continue a move action. A move action must be used in its entirety.

The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action".

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

Spring Attack isn't a standard action of its own, so it does not need to be declared. As long as you move 10 feet before attacking, you can do any combination of moves and one attack (and without provoking an AOO from your target). This can include NOT moving after you attack, by the way, so this feat can be used to bypass a target's Reach.

This does raise the question of whether the attacker is "committed" to the attack. The text for Ready says that, once you finish your action:
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
This isn't as precise as it might be, but I'd say he is not capable of making a melee attack against you, so he doesn't continue, and doesn't waste the action.

It also raises the question, does the "interrupt" mean that you perform your action in the middle of his sword swing, which would indeed "commit" him? I think RAW says no, because the interruption is to the character's "activities", not his "action."

As a DM, I'd probably adjudicate and have the attacker make a Wisdom check; failure would result in a whiffed attack, success would allow him to have the presence of mind to


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Alarox wrote:

The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action". Then the standard action begins and is interrupted. BUT this means the move action is ended.

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

I wouldn't be so certain, Alarox. It's just as possible that there is no "between the end of the move and the start of the attack". The readied action rule states " The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Not between the declaration of the action and the resolution of the action. Before the action. The standard action in its entirety. If the standard action hasn't started yet, since the use of the readied action rolled it back, then the attacking creature must still be in its move action.

I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but I am saying that you will encounter it.


Renen wrote:
Alarox wrote:
Renen wrote:

Sorry, can you explain the "you got reach" option again?

Why does he use the move action to follow for example?

Sorry, the readied action should be "if he gets within this range on a charge" or something along those lines. That way you attack and 5 foot step to the side before he gets within 5 foot step range. This way, he has to use a move action to get in range.

------------

BUT, this one uses an attack of opportunity first at the cost of your enemy getting a full attack:

Ready the action to 5 foot step and attack when the enemy tries to attack you. You get the initial attack of opportunity since he's using a move action through your threatened area. Then, you 5 foot step and get a free attack. Afterward he full attacks though, so the first one is better.

Or, you can use two free trip maneuvers instead of attacks, then stab him with a full attack and get a free attack of opportunity when he stands up.

So you are charged from (lets say) 20 feet.

You have an attack readied to hit him when he is within 10ft (your reach).
You then step back. What stops him from just continuing the charge?

A charge has a predefined ending space you declare as the action begins.


I use this tactic frequently in duels. It does only work on the first round, it does require you to be patient and risk wasting your action (if, say...the foe just stands back and chucks a rock at you or fires a crossbow), and most importantly -- you have to actually win initiative.

But...it is glorious when all of those apply and you patiently set up the trap and the foe recklessly moves in to attack you.

You get to hit him, he wastes his turn, then next round you get to act before him and can 5 ft step back into melee and full attack.

And I'm glad it works like that. The game rewards brazen aggression quite a bit as it is. Let us cautious types have our one ace in the hole. ;)


Alarox wrote:
A charge has a predefined ending space you declare as the action begins.

Absolutely; for a charge, this tactic is invaluable. Have you had a chance to read my post above? I had some thoughts for you in response to your previous post.


SlimGauge wrote:
Alarox wrote:

The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action". Then the standard action begins and is interrupted. BUT this means the move action is ended.

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

I wouldn't be so certain, Alarox. It's just as possible that there is no "between the end of the move and the start of the attack". The readied action rule states " The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Not between the declaration of the action and the resolution of the action. Before the action. The standard action in its entirety. If the standard action hasn't started yet, since the use of the readied action rolled it back, then the attacking creature must still be in its move action.

I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but I am saying that you will encounter it.

The problem with that is simple though. How can you declare the start of the attack if you don't, previously, declare the end of your move action?

If you break down the actions into their simple steps, here's what you get:

1.) Player readies action and 5 foot step
2.) Enemy turn begins
3.) Enemy declares its move action
4.) Enemy begins move action
5.) Enemy ends move action
6.) Enemy starts standard action
7.) Player's readied action begins.

The thing about the readied action is, it doesn't matter when it begins in this case. The fact of the matter is that the move action is DECLARED over. Before the standard is even considered, before anyone at the table has any idea if the creature will even USE a standard action, it is declared that the movement is over.

The move action must be declared ended before a standard action can be declared. Therefore, for the readied action to even begin, the move action must already be ended.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I finally found the post I was looking for. Read what James Jacobs had to say about this HERE.

EDIT: And your steps 5 and 6 are the same step. The move action is ended by beginning the standard action. The move action ends by either running out of remaining move allowance or by starting some other action.


SlimGauge wrote:

I finally found the post I was looking for. Read what James Jacobs had to say about this HERE.

EDIT: And your steps 5 and 6 are the same step. The move action is ended by beginning the standard action. They are the same step.

Then that's basically a loop hole to try to reverse time in the case of readied actions.

The argument for the continuation of the move action is that, since the readied action reads "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it" that the beginning of the action that triggers your response never happens.

that the beginning of the action that triggers your response never happens.

How can the start of the action that triggered your actions never have actually happened, simply because you reacted to it?


SlimGauge wrote:
Alarox wrote:

The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action". Then the standard action begins and is interrupted. BUT this means the move action is ended.

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

I wouldn't be so certain, Alarox. It's just as possible that there is no "between the end of the move and the start of the attack". The readied action rule states " The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Not between the declaration of the action and the resolution of the action. Before the action. The standard action in its entirety. If the standard action hasn't started yet, since the use of the readied action rolled it back, then the attacking creature must still be in its move action.

I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but I am saying that you will encounter it.

So what happens if I say "do X, right as he swings" Or something to that effect.


Renen wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:
Alarox wrote:

The moment the creature decides to attack, that is using a standard action, thus to even SAY "I am attacking" it means "I stopped moving and am about to use my standard action". Then the standard action begins and is interrupted. BUT this means the move action is ended.

The ONLY way the attacking creature could keep moving is if he had Spring Attack and chose to use it before attacking.

I wouldn't be so certain, Alarox. It's just as possible that there is no "between the end of the move and the start of the attack". The readied action rule states " The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Not between the declaration of the action and the resolution of the action. Before the action. The standard action in its entirety. If the standard action hasn't started yet, since the use of the readied action rolled it back, then the attacking creature must still be in its move action.

I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but I am saying that you will encounter it.

So what happens if I say "do X, right as he swings" Or something to that effect.

Then based on the rules, you begin your action the split second before he swings to interrupt that action. But you have to specify that him attacking is the trigger since.

I think, lore wise, it's either you doing your action at virtually the same time or doing it the split second before, depending on the action. The reason it says "the action occurs before the action that triggered it" so that you never get a case where:

Player: "I ready my action to 5 foot step when he attacks me"
GM: "Okay. He attacks you and... you take 29 damage. You can 5 foot step now."


Alarox wrote:
How can the start of the action that triggered your actions never have actually happened, simply because you reacted to it?

Because they are telegraphing what they will be doing. You can tell they are trying to get in a position to axe-chop you before they actually start their swing.

Can a character react in time to change their momentum? We're discussing whether the answer is "yes" or "no", but there's no tool in place to resolve it if the answer it "maybe". That's why I suggested the Wisdom check stopgap, or maybe a Dexterity check.

Quote:
So what happens if I say "do X, right as he swings" Or something to that effect.

Rules wise, that "trigger" isn't valid. You need to specify the condition or action that will trigger it, which could be an Attack action.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Alarox wrote:
that the beginning of the action that triggers your response never happens.

Yup.

Alarox wrote:
How can the start of the action that triggered your actions never have actually happened, simply because you reacted to it?

Because you THOUGHT it was happening. "Ahhhh ! He's in position to attack ! Better get my poke and and shift !"

Remember, you're trying to "simulate" (I use that term very loosely) simultaneous action with a procedural turn. It's never going to be perfect.

Read James's post.


SlimGauge wrote:
Alarox wrote:
that the beginning of the action that triggers your response never happens.

Yup.

Alarox wrote:
How can the start of the action that triggered your actions never have actually happened, simply because you reacted to it?

Because you THOUGHT it was happening. "Ahhhh ! He's in position to attack ! Better get my poke and and shift !"

Remember, you're trying to "simulate" (I use that term very loosely) simultaneous action with a procedural turn. It's never going to be perfect.

Read James's post.

Jame's post is just about the charge, not the readied action.

But it's not "I thought" it was happening, it is "it begins to happen so I interrupt it, because I predicted that it would happen and was ready".

A readied action, by the rules, is specifically in response to something that actually happens. Otherwise, there would be no trigger.

However, your actions prevent the completion of the action. Hence, "it occurs before the action that triggered it". They still have their standard action because you prevented the use of it. But the movement was already ended otherwise they couldn't use their standard.

In order for you to attack, you can not be moving. "The enemy starts attacking" being the trigger means that they could not still be moving and have triggered the readied action.

The Charge is different because it is a full-round action, so even if you interrupt it they still have the rest of their full-round action. I was wrong because I thought that you had to have a specific point to charge to no matter what happens, but according to James I guess this is not the case.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Alarox wrote:
Jame's post is just about the charge, not the readied action.

Re-read the questioner's part 2. He says

"2) same but without the charge, meaning the npc take a move action to get at melee range and the PC strike and step back."

James's answer address both the charging case and the non-charging case.

"If the NPC moves to get in melee range, he can still finish his movement to follow the PC, provided the NPC didn't use ALL of his movement to just barely reach the PC."

and

"...the barbarian still has 10 feet of movement left in his move and can use that to continue to close the gap to the PC. If the barbarian were charging, and he can continue to close that gap ..."

In his example, he first addresses the not charging case and then the charging case.


Well thats stupid. >_< He runs up to me, starts to swing, I hit him 1st, move back, he then recovers, moves and still has time to hit me.


Some snippits from the last time I went through this.

The immortal dancing kobold!

Gronk the first level barbarian is coming after a kobold. The kobold wins initiative. The kobold holds an action to wait for Gronks attack, at which point the kobold will stab gronk with his dagger and 5 foot step away.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

Gronk advances 25 feet and attempts to swing. The kobold stabs gronk with his dagger and steps back 5 feet.

What you're saying is that Gronks turn is over. He has both moved and attacked. Furthermore the kobold can KEEP doing this, because his initiative score stays above gronks.

The kobold will KEEP dodging gronk (until gronk gets ticked and throws his axe or something) IF.... and this is a big if, you consider attacks that become illegal to have been used. There's no way around it. Its the absurdity of getting initiative and then exploiting a rules interpretation so you get free, unbeatable dodges.

So what happens there is gronk moves up to the kobold and holds. The kobold holds.Gronk isn't attacking so the Kobolds attack/step actions don't happen so gronk doesn't attack. Gronk holds. The pair share a LONG few moments of awkward silence gazing into each others eyes. The party bard starts playing "Caaan you feel the love tonight" in the backrgound. When the rules interpretation winds up at an elton john number you know someone screwed up....


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Some snippits from the last time I went through this.

The immortal dancing kobold!

Gronk the first level barbarian is coming after a kobold. The kobold wins initiative. The kobold holds an action to wait for Gronks attack, at which point the kobold will stab gronk with his dagger and 5 foot step away.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

Gronk advances 25 feet and attempts to swing. The kobold stabs gronk with his dagger and steps back 5 feet.

What you're saying is that Gronks turn is over. He has both moved and attacked. Furthermore the kobold can KEEP doing this, because his initiative score stays above gronks.

The kobold will KEEP dodging gronk (until gronk gets ticked and throws his axe or something) IF.... and this is a big if, you consider attacks that become illegal to have been used. There's no way around it. Its the absurdity of getting initiative and then exploiting a rules interpretation so you get free, unbeatable dodges.

So what happens there is gronk moves up to the kobold and holds. The kobold holds.Gronk isn't attacking so the Kobolds attack/step actions don't happen so gronk doesn't attack. Gronk holds. The pair share a LONG few moments of awkward silence gazing into each others eyes. The party bard starts playing "Caaan you feel the love tonight" in the backrgound. When the rules interpretation winds up at an elton john number you know someone screwed up....

You can only do that once because your initiative count changes to AFTER the character who you interrupt. After that turn Gronk will full-attack the kobold to death.

But... according to the ruling by James you can't even do this once.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Renen wrote:
Well thats stupid. >_< He runs up to me, starts to swing, I hit him 1st, move back, he then recovers, moves and still has time to hit me.

Well, you DID get to hit him first.

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