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Hi all,
I'm creating this in the PFS section as my question pertains to a rogue build restricted to PFS rules.
I'd like some help with stats and a build for a Half-Orc sneak attack build. I'm envisioning a character that disguises himself as enemies and typically hides his Half-Orc appearance from others along with either
Half-Orc charging and jumping mid charge to inflict "Death from Above" as I drop down onto them with a 2handed weapon. I'd probably pickup Power Attack and Furious Focus along with Death from Above as my main feats.
I'm not sure how effective this is or how I could get multiple sneak attacks in a combat encounter after the first attack. I'd expect Skulking Slayer to probably be the best option for this rogue type. How effective is Slulking Slayer and any advice on a jumping/charging type of rogue is decent?
Sneaky Half-Orc that uses Sap Adept and Sap Master to just slug people unconscious. From my understanding and reading Sneak Sneak attack I can only use the Sap chain with Unarmed Strikes or Sap as I can't use weapons that cause Lethal damage to do Non-Lethal damage even if I took the -4 penalty according to Sneak Attack's reading. So in this case I'd be wielding a sap or punching people unconscious I guess. (I'd rather use some type of 2handed flail though)
I have no idea if a Ninja would be a better option here or some other rogue archetype. I'm assuming the Rogue Trick: Bleeding Attack would be insane here as by lvl 11 I'm doing 12d6 SA and causing 12 points of internal bleeding per a round for the unfortunate one that I end up clubbing. Plus most likely knocking him out in the process also.
I would like to focus on Disguise, Acrobatics, Intimidate, Stealth, and UMD. I'm not familiar with Sleight of Hand and how useful it can be for a rogue and how often it is useful for a rogue with attacking with concealed weapons/etc (especially in a PFS setting).
I'm not used to playing Rogues, making stealth checks and stealth issues, so I'm pretty clueless here. (I've played a level 2 ninja that used Vanishing Tricks to get sneak attacks off but that's about it.)
Also, can someone give me some opinions on "Ferocious Resolve" and "Razortusk" feats? I'm thinking it may be better to buy a wand or carry a potion of "Savage Maw" than to pick up the feat Razortusk.
Spell is a lvl 1 and looks like it grants the same thing as Razortusk and I can spend a swift action to end it early to make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes in 30 feet radius. Seems like the spell is the better option but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the feats though.
Any suggestions would be great as I want to use Disguise and a 2handed weapon. My mind is not entirely made up on Sapping or Charging but I don't think I can afford doing both as a Half-Orc with max level 12 in PFS.
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My local PFS group hardly has any rogues or clerics (most people play Rangers, Druids, Barbarians, and a few other randoms). Any advice on rogues or suggestion of a build or stats for my above ideas would be great. I like the Half-Orcs features/abilities and their darkvision so any help for a Half-Orc rogue of some sort would be great. Thanks.
I have actually seen a half-orc rogue build with a two-handed weapon once in a non-PFS game.
That player used the Scout archetype from APG, so he dealt sneak attack damage whenever he charged an opponent (an ability that archetype gains at level 4).
To disguise as a human, you may also want the feat "Pass for Human" (also from APG).
Do you have the Advanced Race Guide? If so, you should check out the Skulking Slayer archetype for Half-Orcs; it sounds pretty much exactly like what you're looking for. You might want to start with a level of Fighter first, though, for the bonus feat and proficiencies.
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So what I've came up with so far is this. Let me know if I'm off on anything or ways to improve this build.
Lvl 10 Scout / Lvl 2 Fighter
Stats:
Str: 19* (13)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 8 (-2)
Wis: 13 (3)
Cha: 7 (-4)
1) Fighter 1: Cleave (fighter), Power Attack (lvl 1)
2) Rogue 1:
3) Rogue 2: Combat Trick: Surprise Follow Through (rogue), Furious Focus (lvl 3)
4) Rogue 3: +1 Str
5) Rogue 4: Rogue Talent: Expert Leaper (rogue), Death from Above (lvl 5)
6) Rogue 5:
7) Rogue 6: Resiliency (rogue), Improved Initiative (lvl 7)
8) Rogue 7: +1 Con
9) Rogue 8: Offensive Defense (rogue), Ferocious Resolve (lvl 9)
10) Rogue 9:
11) Rogue 10: Weapon Training or Underhanded or Trap Spotter (rogue), Free (lvl 11)
12) Fighter 2: Free Feat (fighter), +1 Str
I'm not sure in what order to get all these feats or if I should go Scout/Skulking Slayer or Scout/x for my Rogue levels. Looking at Ninja I'd not be gaining much from the looks of it.
My plan is to use a Falchion and charge/jump into the air and leap down onto my opponent. (Hence the Expert Leaper & Death from Above combo along with the Scout archetype). From there I'm cleaving and sneak attacking the 2nd guy with cleave and surprise follow through or retreating and charging back into the fray.
I think I got the stats setup decently, my feats are all over the place and I have 1 fighter feat and 1 regular feat free to pick up something. I'd like to keep my initiative high if possible and use a few tricks (Ferocious Resolve and Resiliency) to keep myself alive and kicking in case someone tears me a new one.
Feel free to suggest a better feat progression, what feats I should consider picking up, and any other fun/great ideas.
EDIT: @Rainy - I have the APG, ARG, UC, and BoA books. I've been looking at Skulking Slayer but was a little set back since it's 2 less skill points per a level, and loses trapfinding and trap senses. I do like the d8's and the Pass as Human ability it gets though. I'm not familiar with Dirty Tricks AT ALL, so I'm dumbfounded as to how Underhanded Maneuvers would be of any help.
Maybe Skulking Slayer / Scout both? I'd feel that I'd need to adjust my stats some to at least have a 10int though to help make up for the 2 SP loss per level.
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The charger is almost certainly going to want to be the "Scout" archtype. At 4th level, you get sneak attack damage every time you charge. As to "Death From Above", remember it really only gives you +2 in a VERY specific situation (can get above AND are charging). You may just want to have Weapon Focus, which is +1 in ALL situations.
As to a build:
Chargey McChargerson
Half-Orc Fighter (Unarmed Fighter 1 / Rogue (Scout Swashbuckler) X)
Str: 18
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 7
Wields a Luceren Hammer
Fighter 1) Power Attack, Dragon Style (Lets you charge through allies and difficult terrain, well worth the 1 level dip of fighter)
Rogue 1) -----
Rogue 2) Combat Reflexes, Furious Focus
Rogue 3) -----
Rogue 4) (Now you get Sneak attack every time you charge)
Sap Adept, Weapon Focus: Luceren Hammer - Weapon Training Trick
Rogue 6) Vital Strike, Sap Master
So for early levels, just having d12+6 @ +4 to hit and reach is good enough to take out most people. You can actually be second rank since your AC isn't great; knowing that you can charge right through allies if you need to.
@ Level 5, your charge gets you full sneak attack. So you deal (d12+2d6+12, before magic items, with a +11 to hit. With a +1 longsword and the +2 Strength belt you'll deal d12+2d6+14 with +13 to hit... and 2 extra damage if it is non-lethal)
The combat reflexes makes up for your laughable AC, since anyone wanting to get to you will now be taking an AOO as they move in.
@ Level 7 Vital Strike and Sap Master come online. Now your charge deals 2d12+6d6+20 with the same items above... and you'll probably be higher to hit with magic items and such.
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Not to get off-topic, but couldn't I charge at the enemy and make a jump to get the charge and above requirement for Death from Above? Essentially a running ninja that jumps up and plunges their katana into the back or chest of the victim. If so I'd say it wouldn't be too hard to meet the requirement and with Expert Leaper I'm not taking any falling damage from the 10ft height jump into the air. I'd be maxing arcobatics out.
EDIT: One of the main issues I have with Unarmed Fighter is there's no Medium or Heavy armor Prof. Which I was planning on getting mithral plate to help shore up my low dex (14). I love the idea of Dragon Style to pass through rough terrain and allies but idk, I'm still out 2 armor proficiencies.
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You can, but things like AOOs and those times you are locked into combat and can't really charge it's impossible to get that bonus. Also, you can use a Rogue Trick to get Weapon Focus, you can't for Death From Above. It's just better off for you to take +1 at all times. If you death from above and have weapon focus, you are still getting +4 (since it is +1 from Weapon Focus, +2 From Charge, +1 for higher ground), so you still do the technique, weapon focus is just more "generally useful".
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If you want the armor you can take medium armor prof (the Mithril Breastplate is 2 more AC without slowing you), but I wouldn't bother... Mithril Fullplate is a whopping 11000 GP and slows you down. For that kind of money you can afford nearly the same AC setup, but once you hit the levels to get that you honestly aren't that concerned with AC... a 26 AC will still by hit by all relevant monsters. You either play the AC game hard or not at all... my level 9 is in the low 30s and is still hit like he is wearing toilet paper on a semi-regular basis :).
For what it's worth the whole concept is better done as a Barbarian (who gets pouncing, more hp, and medium armor profiency... in addition to speed). You've given up most of what makes a rogue a rogue (skills, which are admittingly weak), so if you want a combat monster with some skills go Barbarian and it will be much more effective.
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Not sure I follow completely, Death from Above is +5 in place of Charge and Higher ground bonus so that's +2 extra attack than before and if I had Weapon Focus that'd be +6atk. It seems decent enough as it's +2atk which puts me pretty close to full BAB use.
Is there any way for me to make jumps without provoking also? I'm guessing maybe Spring Attack would be helpful, not sure if anything else would besides a full withdraw and then jumping back into the action.
Also, would you be able to Spring Attack and Death from Above with a Lucerne Hammer's reach and not have to worry about AoO's?
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Back onto topic though, Dragon Style is hard for me to get without forfeiting Heavy Armor Prof which would grant me a lot of extra AC, that'd keep me alive, since I'm going to be charging into the front lines at times.
What are your thoughts on Ferocious Resolve and Resiliency?
Sap Adept and Sap Master seem nice but I guess I'd have to enchant my weapon with Merciful to get the benefit? It also removes my choices of weapons with a high crit range (Falcion, Katana, etc). I'm not seeing many Blunt weapons with high Crit range, or am I better off with a higher crit xdmg (x3 or x4)?
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Eh, I'm looking for more of a ninja sword user honestly. I just figured that the charging for sneak would be relatively easy instead of going off the Vanishing Tricks of Ninja and that I could add some old fashion ninja jumping to increase my ability to hit with that 2handed sneak attack.
I like the H-Orc since it has some ferocity feats (Ferocious Resolve) which seems really helpful and fun, there's also the bite attack for an extra attack, and they get darkvision. They come equipped with Falchion prof so I figured I'd just use that over a 2handed katana.
I figured I might as well reach for Heavy Armor Prof with a fighter dip, it'd definitely slow me down and still give me -3 ACP but I figured it'd be cheaper later on than trying to get a Mithral Breastplate to +2 or +3 and not have nearly the AC. I know I'm playing PFS but I'm not sure how far I'll get funds wise before I hit lvl 12.
Maybe I need to steer more towards the Ninja? I was thinking Rogue would be better since they get Evasion and most of the stuff I was looking at was on the Rogue Talent list anyways. The few things I do like are the Vanishing Tricks and Shadow Clone though. I'm not entirely impressed with the others (especially the shuriken ones since I'm not Dex focused)
I wouldn't worry about crits that much. A lot of your damage will come from sneak attacks, which isn't multiplied.
You list 5 skills you want to focus on, 3 of which are based on Charisma, but you dumped it to 7. You might reconsider that. Since you're also worried about having too few skill points, you could check out the traits in Ultimate Campaign that let you use Int instead of Cha for UMD and Intimidate. That would let you dump Cha, invest in Int for more skill points, and get the best of both.
Here's my recommendation:
Stats:
Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Traits: Bruising Intellect, Pragmatic Activator
1) Fighter 1: Cleave (fighter), Power Attack (lvl 1)
2) Rogue 1:
3) Rogue 2: Combat Trick: Surprise Follow Through (rogue), Toughness
4) Rogue 3: +1 Str
5) Rogue 4: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training, Furious Focus
After level 5, there's not a whole lot of must-haves, so you can take whatever rogue talents and feats you want. You'll have plenty of skill points, and a solid +6 UMD and +8 Intimidate at first level.
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Well, the Luceren Hammer's length solves a lot of problems... first, you've got AOOs, which are a detriment for people wanting to hit your AC. Second, it lets you jump-charge without provoking vs small/medium-sized opponents, since they never threaten you. As to crit-range, critmaster fighters or most barbarians do well with crit range, but rogues really don't, since sneak attack doesn't double on crits.
The death from above all I was saying was it is terribly situational, and you don't have the feats to really afford it.
Ferocious Resolve is terrible... anything that keeps you standing at negative hp makes certain the GM continues to attack you while you are at negative hp. Really even Half-orc ferocity is used when you are certain all NPCs are out of attacks. It's a death tactic, and really only good when you are losing; feats should be more "all purpose".
You'll find charging doesn't happen often in PFS if you don't have Dragon Style sadly... allies get in the way, tight quarters hurt, and you're often on difficult terrain. Around level 10 you can save up for a carpet of flying and overcome much of that (and get easy death-from-aboves), but that is a lot of saving GP to afford that. So if you're basing your character on charging, you absolutely need that feat... even if you have to spend two feats to get that + improved unarmed strike.
For Sap Adept/master you have 3 options:
1. use a weapon that can naturally deal NL damage (sap, bolas, whip,IUS)
2. get a weapon with merciful enchant
3. get the feat Bludgeoner (which is what my sap master rogue did, but because she does it with ranged blunt arrows)
It is very efficient WHEN IT WORKS. Not only are you screwed by the usual immune to SA baddies (elementals and oozes) but now also by enemies who are immune to non-lethal damage like Undead (that's a lot of bad guys!). So just a word of warning.
Rogues usually not really care that much about critting, since sneak attack damage doesn't multiply, and that's where most of the damage will come from (unless you do go with that higher STR build, and then still).
On the armor thing, I am with Talin. For the price difference between a mithral breatsplate and mithral full plate, you can buy mithral armor +1, a ring of prot +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1, effectively giving you the same AC as mithral full plate, AND you are not slowed down to 20 ft. movement, which will hurt a charging build.
Heck, if you pick up the trait Armor Expert, you don't even need to get the Medium Armor Proficiency feat.
If you end up picking up IUS for Dragon Style, that solved the finding a bludgeoning weapon to use with sap adept and master. If you go Sap master, you can look into the Enforcer feat and the thug archetype as well.
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So my best bet is Unarmed Fighter, and a reach weapon (preferably a bludgeoning one if I'd like to pick up the Sap line).
This has been bugging me, but if I pick up Bleed Attack and I make a Sap Master sneak attack for 12d6 instead of 6d6 according to Bleed Attack I'd cause 12points of internal bleeding per a round correct? This seems pretty decent as it's 2x what a rogue would normally get.
What method am I going to use to stay alive without Medium/Heavy armor prof? Or should I burn a feat for Med armor prof?
I was thinking the same thing about Ferocious Resolve but was kind of hoping it'd be somewhat worthwhile as a Ninja with vanishing tricks to vanish retreat and chug some CLW potions or use a wand. Seems like I'm more likely to be dogmeat instead, at least that'll open up 1 extra feat.
I take it Ninja + Scout wouldn't be too bad?
I agree players can get in the way, last PFS game I played had 7 people and we had 1wiz, 1alch, 1paladin, 2rangers, 1sum, and myself. Was too crowded for me to get past my allies most of the time.
I guess I can toss the H-Orc's Ferocity and pickup Sacred Tattoo or Toothy.....that or I could pickup Skilled (replacing Darkvision) and then pickup Acute Darkvision (replacing Orc Ferocity). Seems a bit poorly written but looks legal.
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So the below stats would probably be best for Ninja? I could raise Charisma but I'd rather not lower my Str, and Dex/Con are both a bit low and needed quite a bit. I guess I could always take "Extra Ki" once later on if necessary?
Orc Ninja / Scout with 1 lvl dip in Unarmed Fighter for Dragon Stance
Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 7 (-2)
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 12 (2)
Grab the Armor Expert trait and wear a Mithral breastplate for armor. Use a Lucerne Hammer to charge/jump. Is there any way to get Spring Attack to charge in, SA, then move out to stay out of the front line? Or should I just avoid that idea?
I'll go the Sap route with bludgeoner and will consider the enforcer feat.
Is the Cleave / Surprise Follow Through chain worth considering though? If it's pretty good I'll see what I can do to add it in there. I'm assuming ANY way I can get my Non-lethal dmg dice (12d6) to go off along with Bleeding Attack will be effective. I think 12 bleed dmg is definitely worth considering.
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Your way of staying alive is to have the 14 Con, level to hp every turn, and a reach weapon that causes AOOs to those coming near you. Early levels you'll get by with the Chain Shirt + Dex 14 for a 16, but later levels even getting into the mid-20s isn't exciting. You'll save up and your belt will eventually be +2 Str / +2 Dex / +2 Con, so you get more AOOs, damage, and hp. Since you're a ninja, you can always charge, and vanishing trick AFTER the charge (giving them a 50/50 miss shot vs you, if they can find you).
I would trait an extra ki point and +1 to will saves, personally. Your saves will be pretty poor on this setup.
For the record, above you get a 12 Wis, not 10. That +1 to will saves will be important, and perception etc.
Are you dead-set on Half-orc? You're not really using the halforcness for anything, and a human gets an extra skill point and extra feat. With this build being so feat-starved, you'd end up strictly better.
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So I've came up with two build ideas. Most of the PFS members at my local store are humans, tieflings, aasimar, dwarves, or elves so I'm interested in running either a Half-Orc due to their typical lack of acceptance in the world or a halfling.....because no one local plays gnome or halfling and halflings are just so full of awesome.
Both builds present a way to get Sneak Attacks in (H-Orc with Charging and reach and Halfling with plenty of Vanishing Tricks available and a higher stealth score). Part of the difference is the H-Orcs focus on Str while the Halfling focuses less on the weapon damage, power attack, and etc and more on a high Dex and much better Save rolls due to Adaptable Luck.
Stats:
Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 12 (2)
Traits:
Reactionary +2init
Armor Expert (wearing Mithral BP later)
Build:
1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Dragon Style (UF Style), Imp Initiative (lvl 1)
2) Ninja/Scout 1:
3) Ninja/Scout 2: Combat Trick: Bludgeoner (ninja), Sap Adept (lvl 3)
4) Ninja/Scout 3: +1 Str
5) Ninja/Scout 4: Vanishing Trick (ninja), Weapon Focus: Kusarigama (lvl 5)
6) Ninja/Scout 5:
7) Ninja/Scout 6: Bleeding Attack (ninja), Sap Master (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 2: Extra Ki (fighter), +1 Str
9) Ninja/Scout 7: Extra Ki (lvl 9)
10) Ninja/Scout 8: Rogue Talent: Expert Leaper (ninja)
11) Ninja/Scout 9: Death from Above (lvl 11)
12) Ninja/Scout 10: Forgotten Tricks (ninja), +1 Str
Using Kasarigama as Blunt with Reach since I'm proficient with it as a Ninja and Unarmed Fighter doesn't give proficiency with Martial weapons. I wasn't able to fit Resiliency or Shadow Clone in the build and I may be overdueing it a little with the Extra Ki but that gives me 6+4extra at level 10 unless I invest in some +Cha items to boost my Ki pool.
This Half Orc character concept would be one that is focused on "blending in" as he'd be using a Hat of Disguise and fooling others into thinking he was a human. An outcast Half Orc that is works for the Society to seek acceptance by Renown.
Growing up in the outskirts (as most half orcs do) he has learned to harness quick darting movements along with his brute strength as he's been forced to adapt in the wild and on the streets (disguised as a human). His orcish nature compells him to get as close to the action as possible by leaping, smashing, and bludgeoning anything that opposes the Society and ultimately his mission.
As a ninja he hides his identity, allowing only his name/renown to be tied to his shadow. His focus is to charge in, use reach, and knock enemies out. He flanks when needed but tries to remain at reach distance and uses Vanishing Tricks when things aren't going his way.
Stats:
Str: 10! (2)
Dex: 19* (13) +1 @ lvl 4
Con: 13 (3) +1 @ lvl 8
Int: 8 (-2)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 14* (2)
Halfling Traits Swapped Out:
Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck)
Fleet of Foot (replaces Slow Speed and Sure-Footed)
Traits:
Reactionary +2init
Armor Expert (wearing Mithral BP later)
Build:
1) Fighter 1: Imp Initiative (fighter), Fortunate One (lvl 1)
2) Ninja/Scout 1:
3) Ninja/Scout 2: Vanishing Trick (ninja), Adaptive Fortune (lvl 3)
4) Ninja/Scout 3: +1 Dex
5) Ninja/Scout 4: Shadow Clone (ninja), FREE (lvl 5)
6) Ninja/Scout 5:
7) Ninja/Scout 6: Forgotten Tricks (ninja), FREE (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 2: (fighter), +1 Con
9) Ninja/Scout 7: FREE (lvl 9)
10) Ninja/Scout 8: Weapon Focus: Kusarigama (ninja)
11) Ninja/Scout 9: FREE (lvl 11)
12) Ninja/Scout 10: Invisible Blade (ninja), +1 Str
I'm not sure if I should build towards a Wakizashi focus or do the same as the Orc build and go bludgeoning with an "Agile" enchanted Kusarigama. I feel like Expert Leaper and Death from Above may be a little "harder" for a Halfling to do as they are smaller than the average opponent.
I'm still moving at 30ft, my initiative is about 3 points higher, weapon damage is less but most of the damage is in the sneak attack anyways.
The bad Fort and Will saves for Ninja aren't too much of a problem with Fortunate One and Adaptive Fortune. I have 5 uses per a day to add +3 (or +4 before a roll) to any Save, Ability, Attack, or Skill roll. That's a +3 save bonus anytime which is like having a +3 Cloak of Resistance at the cost of 2 feats.
I'm not entirely sure which combat direction to go but I don't think a Shuriken focused / Range focused would be a good idea. I could throw in a LOT of Extra Ki feats to allow me to Vanish a ton during PFS sessions to get instant Sneak Attacks. IDK.
I'm unsure of the Filcher archetype but if it's really worth it I could take Filcher with another Rogue archetype and dump Ninja. While using a Rogue Talent to pickup a Ninja Trick: Vanishing Tricks and another Rogue Talent to gain Ki Pool and using Extra Ki feats and +Wis items to boost my max Ki. (This actually doesn't sound like a bad idea tbh.)
I imagine the Halfling as being a calm pipe smoking lad in a long black coat, perhaps with a black cloak drawn about him. Constantly "vanishing" as a ninja or halfling should and appearing ONLY when he WANTS to be seen. He would not be a book smart person as he spends a lot of his time on the street, studying people and pinpointing the weaknesses of humanoids. (hence the 8int, he's decently Wise and street smart)
How he goes about taking down his opponents I'm not entirely sure yet. As I could remain in Scout or pickup Filcher instead, which may be more beneficial? This character would be a calm killer and constantly hidden or disappearing (Which I may pickup multiple Extra Ki feats to allow him to constantly use Vanishing Tricks since I'm playing a PFS setting. 10-16 at-will sneak attacks should be plenty)
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With the halfling Weapon Focus and not two-handing is a boldface necessity; you'll always miss otherwise. The issue is you'll be fairly combat-ineffective. You can improve that a little with the "Agile" enchantment, but even then it is tough to "keep up".
The half-orc looks good; though you run into the issue of him being "strictly better" as either human or tiefling. The reason a lot of those races aren't played is they don't offer much. What you CAN gain as a half-orc is the ability to drink potions as a move; Reach + Enlarge Person potions swift-drank can be really nice once the 250 GP hit starts being a small part of your treasure.
To make a rogue effective you have to pull out every trick in the book; you're already choosing the weakest class in the game. You're also adding a weak race on top, and you're gimping intelligence (effectively taking away one of the only advantages they have in life). This same concept would be "strictly better" as a barbarian or fighter for you... is the goal to play that specific class because nobody else does, or do you like the concept of the "mad charging heavy-hitting jumpy" front-line type?
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I'm in favor of the vanishing, sneaky, jumping incapacitator. I like the idea of a character from most ninja movies. To vanish and instantly appear behind someone and wail on them then just as quickly vanishing and leaving everyone else speechless and fearful that they may be next.
I think you're forgetting that Half-Orcs have free Darkvision, that's great to constantly have, which I believe would cost me 12k for Goggles of Night. That's a hefty amount of gold and pretty helpful in PFS as any type of lighting could screw up my sneak attacks as a human.
One of the benefits of Half-Orc is the lvl1 orc spell for a free bite attack or just taking the feat for a bite attack. That's 1 more attack to possibly get sneak attack dmg. Humans can't do that unless they are allowed to use Savage Maw also, but IDK since it's a spell in the Half-Orc section.
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I'm not fond of playing the devil's spawn. Also, everyone says that Fort and Will saves are one of the rogue's banes. Halflings seem to do a good job of patching up this weakness. I'm spending 2 feats but that's 5 uses of +3 to a fort or will save per a day (or to atk,skill,ability checks if I wanted). +4 if I used it prior to seeing the results of my roll.
Just an example, if I had both the halfling feats at lvl 1 I'd have the following saves: 3fort, 5reflex, 3will at lvl1 instead of 0fort, 2reflex, 0will. That's a pretty good job. I could take Iron Will and Great Fortitude with 2 feats but that's only +2, not affecting my reflex or atk,skill,ability rolls and still at least 1 point less for a fort or will save. (+4 bonus if used before seeing the result of the roll)
The halfling seems to work better overall. There's less focus on spending feats to increase the weapon's damage. Making the Kusarigama Agile later on lets him use Sap Master at reach if I wanted to go that route. Until then I'd just use a ranged weapon or light weapon (but I'd have to pickup Weapon Finesse for a light melee weapon).
The rogue isn't getting most of it's damage from the actual weapon, it's mostly due to the sneak attack anyways. The H-Orc pumps out more damage with his weapon but his dex is lower so he has a lower Reflex save and lower AC. The flipside is he'll probably do, what maybe 8-20 more damage per a swing with power attack?
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So I think Halfling's +saves option, +1ac and +1atk, and remaining 30ft speed with halfling trait or the H-Orc's darkvision, +1saves to Tattoo, and extra bite attack possibility are both decent compared to the Human. Human gets an extra skillpoint but heck I'm already getting at least 7 per a lvl so no big deal. The free feat is nice but at the expense of the above.
Also, I don't have Ultimate Campaign...I have Ultimate Combat. I don't have access to the Lore Warden to my knowledge.
I'm interested in thoughts about this but I'm not really seeing a loss by going Half-Orc or Halfling (halfling seems better also since rogues have a rough time with fort and will saves).
EDIT: If I'm attempting to really pump out damage It'd be Sap Master with Bleeding Attack. 12d6 at lvl 11 and 12 points of bleed dmg per a round. I'd be screwed against those immune to this but there's other rogue abilities/ways of dealing with others.
Playing a Rogue seems better as 2+int mod skill points per a level really sucks, and Barbarian gets 1/2 of a Rogue's skill points. Dropping Int to 8 and still getting 7 skill points a level doesn't seem bad at all it's still more than 3x what a fighter gets. Also, I forgot to mention above that Halflings do get a +4 bonus on stealth also. It just depends on how useful stealth is in PFS. (I'll have Vanishing Tricks and ability to SA when charging, but still being sneaky/quiet as a small rogue should be helpful)
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I like the above build, but I'd maybe change 1 or 2 things to fit my needs. Definitely a good setup though and I don't think I really looked at Enforcer before.
What is everyone's thoughts on rogues and fort/will saves? Do rogues typically die from massive damage? Or do rogues typically die from a poor fort or will save? What typically messes a rogue up the most?
If it's saves that really kill a rogue off most times, I may opt for the Halfling idea and build towards Xmorsx build and drop power attack and a few other minor things and focus more on putting out damage mainly with sneak attacks than sneak attacks with heavy melee hits.
It really comes down to Halfling = better saves, or Half-Orc = harder melee hits and natural darkvision. If you've played a rogue and died in a game, let me know if it was due to a bad Save or just getting pummeled to death by a monster that tore through your health.
@ Level 7 Vital Strike and Sap Master come online. Now your charge deals 2d12+6d6+20 with the same items above... and you'll probably be higher to hit with magic items and such.
Nice build of charging sap master, the Dragon Strike adds a lot.
However, I don't think you are allowed to charge and vital strike at the same time.
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So what I've came up with so far is this. Let me know if I'm off on anything or ways to improve this build.
Lvl 10 Scout / Lvl 2 Fighter
Stats:
Str: 19* (13)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 8 (-2)
Wis: 13 (3)
Cha: 7 (-4)1) Fighter 1: Cleave (fighter), Power Attack (lvl 1)
2) Rogue 1:
3) Rogue 2: Combat Trick: Surprise Follow Through (rogue), Furious Focus (lvl 3)
4) Rogue 3: +1 Str
5) Rogue 4: Rogue Talent: Expert Leaper (rogue), Death from Above (lvl 5)
6) Rogue 5:
7) Rogue 6: Resiliency (rogue), Improved Initiative (lvl 7)
8) Rogue 7: +1 Con
9) Rogue 8: Offensive Defense (rogue), Ferocious Resolve (lvl 9)
10) Rogue 9:
11) Rogue 10: Weapon Training or Underhanded or Trap Spotter (rogue), Free (lvl 11)
12) Fighter 2: Free Feat (fighter), +1 StrI'm not sure in what order to get all these feats or if I should go Scout/Skulking Slayer or Scout/x for my Rogue levels. Looking at Ninja I'd not be gaining much from the looks of it.
My plan is to use a Falchion and charge/jump into the air and leap down onto my opponent. (Hence the Expert Leaper & Death from Above combo along with the Scout archetype). From there I'm cleaving and sneak attacking the 2nd guy with cleave and surprise follow through or retreating and charging back into the fray.
I think I got the stats setup decently, my feats are all over the place and I have 1 fighter feat and 1 regular feat free to pick up something. I'd like to keep my initiative high if possible and use a few tricks (Ferocious Resolve and Resiliency) to keep myself alive and kicking in case someone tears me a new one.
Feel free to suggest a better feat progression, what feats I should consider picking up, and any other fun/great ideas.
EDIT: @Rainy - I have the APG, ARG, UC, and BoA books. I've been looking at Skulking Slayer but was a little set back since it's 2 less skill points per a level, and loses trapfinding and trap senses. I do like the d8's and the Pass as Human ability it gets though. I'm not familiar with Dirty...
i would swap out fighter for MOMS monk to get the dragon style to ignore allies during a charge. other then that i would say the scout build is better for you.
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Honestly I think Unarmed Fighter would give better proficiencies and an extra feat that's not restricted to monk's feats with a 2 level dip. I'm sure the save bonuses from Monk would be a little better but wearing anything more than "no armor" is going to nullify the Monk's bonus AC.
I do admit that Dragon Style seems very beneficial for a Rogue (especially a Scout or Skulking Slayer)