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Heh, I'd say that the vast majority of monsters in the bestiary fall into the category of "under utilized and under appreciated."
I "roll my own" and reskin monsters all the time. I routinely take something I find interesting, merge it with something else, create a custom miniature and throw it at the party.
Great fun.
I really miss Mind flayers.
Aboleths, Mimics, Shining Children, Mothmen.
Unusual uses of templates (For my upcoming campaign I am thinking of pathfinderizing the mind flayer, and then making one a Lich. Because that image really appeals to me).
Halfing or Gnome villains.
I agree with the druid thing. More creepy evil druids. They have access to some really bizarre and disturbing spells (Blood Mist, Cape of Wasps, Contagion, Epidemic, Fungal Infestation, Plague Storm, Plague Carrier, Polar Midnight, Summon Froghemoth, Snakestaff, Swarm Skin, just to name a few)
Heh, I'd say that the vast majority of monsters in the bestiary fall into the category of "under utilized and under appreciated."
I "roll my own" and reskin monsters all the time. I routinely take something I find interesting, merge it with something else, create a custom miniature and throw it at the party.
Great fun.
Back about a year and a few months ago I stole this idea from you AD. Oh sure, I'd done it a few times before on my own but not to the scale or finesse you proposed in some old thread somewhere. Anyway, now I'm following right in your wing-prints.
@ common1: its funny you mention fey b/cause w/the exception of a couple books of a couple APs I didn't really find much out there a couple years ago when I decided to homebrew a dark fairy tale kind of land.
Now that I have Karnoss (my homebrew) I'm constantly tinkering w/the fey. I find them infinitely more easy to modify than a lot of monsters since I can just take their SLAs, swap em, and BAM! New fey.
Did you know in myths there were fey vampires and fey versions of what we'd call necromancers? So I've got fey who watch over the dead; fey who emulate the undead; fey necromancer types and lots of permutations.
Anyway, just my 2cp, sorry for derailing.
As for most underused... how about the Aurumvorax?
Strangely:
Hobgoblins -Maybe they`re too scary when played right. Tough, smart, numerous and most importantly well organized.
I just recently, having had that same thought, threw a warband of hobgoblin worg riders at a party of 2nd and 3rd level PCs. It was a close call, the hobbies almost wiped the floor with them. It was touch and go for a moment, before the party monk rolled a critical hit and dropped the warband's leader, and the halfling wizard started the plain's grasses on fire with a fire jet. Then morale started to falter, and the group no longer operated with the same military precision.
I also totally agree with SPDCRI about the evil fey. They can create some great encounters, what with their wild and savage ways, and their propensity to play pranks on unsuspecting victims.
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Strangely:
Hobgoblins -Maybe they`re too scary when played right. Tough, smart, numerous and most importantly well organized.
I just recently, having had that same thought, threw a warband of hobgoblin worg riders at a party of 2nd and 3rd level PCs. It was a close call, the hobbies almost wiped the floor with them. It was touch and go for a moment, before the party monk rolled a critical hit and dropped the warband's leader, and the halfling wizard started the plain's grasses on fire with a fire jet. Then morale started to falter, and the group no longer operated with the same military precision.
I also totally agree with SPDCRI about the evil fey. They can create some great encounters, what with their wild and savage ways, and their propensity to play pranks on unsuspecting victims.
I remember when Pathfinder was doing the reboot thing and they first unveiled goblins they had some crap story about hobgoblins being born of goblins but with more depravity and such. They were a 1 in 100 basically birth defect among goblins...eventually they grew up and terrorized the goblins of their community and would prey on their own at times.
i am glad they didn't stick with that but it seems they haven't done anything more with them besides saying "more militaristic and civilized" and falling back on the accepted version of them.I wish we saw more of them in modules and paths.
Gricks. Love em. Low CR, creature with DR. Should be something every adventurer trains with and runs into.
Bulette. Knock-knock. Who's there? Land shark. nuff said.
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Yeah, re-skinning is where its at. Take the stats. Then Describe whatever you want. Change the behavior too. I often use different stats even when the PCs are fighting something they recognize. Keep those metagaming buggers on their toes.
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Twigjacks
"Oh hey what's up lil' stick dude, what're you doi-AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH"
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It is actually less common for my players to encounter straight bestiary monsters than to encounter my own crazy creations. Even when I use existing monsters, I frequently put them in the company of things the players have to figure out.
Of course that's because I personally consider "encountering and dealing with the unknown" to be a key aspect of the fantasy gaming experience.
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Hobgoblins really work nicely as an army enemy -- which is hard for Paizo's CR system to handle. But I would like to see an adventure path where they're a major chunk of the villain's army, though I suppose one could just always play Red Hand of Doom instead.
Evil druids are a real hoot; I've used them a few times.
Animated objects don't get enough love; neither do minotaurs, unicorns, or giant insects of one type or another.
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I really miss Mind flayers.
Aboleths, Mimics, Shining Children, Mothmen.
Unusual uses of templates (For my upcoming campaign I am thinking of pathfinderizing the mind flayer, and then making one a Lich. Because that image really appeals to me).
Forgotten Realms already did this with the alhoon. One even appeared in Baldur's Gate 2.
Had a great time with an evil druid recently. The druid was APL and I gave him a half dozen elf fighter (APL-5) minions to make the encounter interesting. It very nearly turned into a TPK, in part because the players were cocky and in part because druids make extremely good controllers.
Twigjacks
"Oh hey what's up lil' stick dude, what're you doi-AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH"
I looked this up just to see what you mea-AGHHHHHHHHH.
I can see a party of level 2s getting horribly eviscerated by this thing. Alone.
Doppelganger Sorcerers.
Heh, I'd say that the vast majority of monsters in the bestiary fall into the category of "under utilized and under appreciated."
I "roll my own" and reskin monsters all the time. I routinely take something I find interesting, merge it with something else, create a custom miniature and throw it at the party.
Great fun.
Back about a year and a few months ago I stole this idea from you AD. Oh sure, I'd done it a few times before on my own but not to the scale or finesse you proposed in some old thread somewhere. Anyway, now I'm following right in your wing-prints.
@ common1: its funny you mention fey b/cause w/the exception of a couple books of a couple APs I didn't really find much out there a couple years ago when I decided to homebrew a dark fairy tale kind of land.
Now that I have Karnoss (my homebrew) I'm constantly tinkering w/the fey. I find them infinitely more easy to modify than a lot of monsters since I can just take their SLAs, swap em, and BAM! New fey.
Did you know in myths there were fey vampires and fey versions of what we'd call necromancers? So I've got fey who watch over the dead; fey who emulate the undead; fey necromancer types and lots of permutations.
Anyway, just my 2cp, sorry for derailing.
As for most underused... how about the Aurumvorax?
One of the funniest times in my old AD&D 2nd Edition group was when an Aurumvorax burst out of the bush and tore into our fighter. We had the old "you can say ten words" as a free action per round. Our fighter's last words: "KILL IT, IT'S KILLING ME!!!!"
Why do people automatically assume that Hobgoblins are an army or militaristic? Because the fluff says so? So what?
Take a hobgoblin right? What's their stat array in the Bestiary:
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
High dex, int 10. What if you made him a Fighter 1/Wizard 1? No great shakes at Int mind you, but a couple spells anyway. Now you look at the fluff and say "well shucks; he can't BE a wizard 'cause it says they don't like to be in the fluff..."
SO?
Gobhoblin: These vile arcanist goblins are a strange antithesis of their more superstitious kin. Gobhoblins are obsessed with writing, language and patterns. Their society is lawful and bent on the acquisition of power, but not necessarily through martial means. As a result while lawful they don't tend toward the militant, organizing themselves into a caste system of masters and apprentices.
Gobhoblins then are a kind of goblin you can use to fill out the ranks of goblin-kind. You can have an arcane caster and mastermind w/out having to go to some non-goblin overlord. They rise above common shaman/hedge wizard/Adept types.
I routinely use bugbears as leaders. I know the fluff says they're NOT leaders, but I do it anyway.
Heh, even when I do use "common" monsters, particuarly common "races" like goblins, kobolds, lizard folk, orcs, etc. I will almost always have a couple of special snowflakes included, like an orc with two levels of barbarian or a kobold sorcerer etc.
In going over in my mind the last three encounters the party in my current campaign encountered, the only "normal" monsters they encountered were some wandering undead (zombies and skeletons mostly) and some myconids. Everything else they encountered was a unique creation of my own, with custom miniatures to represent them.
I do admit that one of the real sources of satisfaction I get out of running a campaign is when I put a miniature down and all the players pick it up, examine it closely and then sort of simultaneously say "Cool mini man!" and "What the hell is THAT?"
Adventurers should way "what the hell is THAT" a lot more than they seem to in most of the games I play. In my games the players say it a lot.
I remember when Pathfinder was doing the reboot thing and they first unveiled goblins they had some crap story about hobgoblins being born of goblins but with more depravity and such. They were a 1 in 100 basically birth defect among goblins...eventually they grew up and terrorized the goblins of their community and would prey on their own at times.
i am glad they didn't stick with that but it seems they haven't done anything more with them besides saying "more militaristic and civilized" and falling back on the accepted version of them.
I wish we saw more of them in modules and paths.
Those weren't hobgoblins, those were (and still are) bugbears. Hobgoblins were always the more militarized and civilized goblinoid.
I will throw in Orcs...for such iconic bad guys, I think they have showed up only briefly in 1 AP
Twigjacks
"Oh hey what's up lil' stick dude, what're you doi-AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH"
I looked this up just to see what you mea-AGHHHHHHHHH.
I can see a party of level 2s getting horribly eviscerated by this thing. Alone.
Yep, ran a 1-5 PFS scenario this past weekend for a group of SEVEN pcs.
3 level 1's.2 level 2's.
1 level 3.
1 level 4.
They encountered one of these things, with "weakened" listed stats, in a fairly enclosed bramble-filled space...it got the jump on the party and I nearly PK'd three of them before it went down, including the level 4 PC.
Great group too, but these things are just horrifying in their chosen terrain.
Take a hobgoblin right? What's their stat array in the Bestiary:
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
High dex, int 10. What if you made him a Fighter 1/Wizard 1? No great shakes at Int mind you, but a couple spells anyway. Now you look at the fluff and say "well shucks; he can't BE a wizard 'cause it says they don't like to be in the fluff..."
Int of 10 means they cannot cast first level arcane spells. They would only get cantrips. Though since they're getting PC classes you could give them the elite array...
I'm surprised how little the lesser dragons are used. Drakes and wyverns make great low-level dragon fighters for aspiring dragonslayers.
Also, animals aren't used all that often (aside from giant-sized vermin).
I love using evil druids, they make very interesting fights and give you an opportunity for unconventional loot. Personally, I'd kinda like to see more use of the non-standard classes (Bard, Monk, Alchemist etc.) as enemies.
Right now I'm completely immersed in the Dresden Files and Attack on Titan and both showed my how incredibly scary and interesting iconic baddies can be (Fey and Giants respectively). I'll definitely be using more of those in the future, if only to show how seriously you have to take a giant cannibal without magic, weapons etc.
I just used aboleths a while ago, but the problem I have with them is that stat-wise they are relatively weak but they feel like capstone creatures. I get a great deal of use of their minions, like Skum and Faceless stalkers. It makes for a great secret invasion situation.
I'm surprised how little the lesser dragons are used. Drakes and wyverns make great low-level dragon fighters for aspiring dragonslayers.
Also, animals aren't used all that often (aside from giant-sized vermin).
I've fought several packs of wolves, bears, templated wolves, thylacines, more wolves, bears...
Wolves are a common staple for killing adventurers lol.
I recently built an encounter for a competition. If I recall correctly, it was a level 2 alchemist, and a melancholic ooze swarm. Really, when was the last time you fought an ooze? Besides the somewhat iconic gelatinous cube, which is still rare, oozes almost never show up in games, which is a bit of a bummer because they can be really good for throwing your party a curveball, and forcing them to adapt.
Doppelgangers!!!!
I know they are really...I mean really!...hard to pull off in game because they break so many rules about how a GM deals with players/characters (such as taking over control of characters, replacing characters, infighting between players and characters, etc.) but the concept is just so cool and full of possibility.
Maybe it just works better in fiction and computer games than RPG but I still remember that castle in Balders Gate that was full of traps because the owner had been driven insane by constant doppelganger attacks.
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Aboleths are mastermind-type characters; they're not really designed so much for a fight, but for ruthless manipulation behind the scenes. It's hard to have them be a memorable encounter in themselves -- either their illusions, misdirections, and pawns work like a charm and the PCs never even know they were dealing with an aboleth, or they don't work and the thing gets slaughtered. Plus you can mostly do the same thing with a non-aboleth character (anyone with good enchantment and illusion spells, basically).
Also you have to have a GM who is really adept with illusions and keeping track of what _is_ the case, and what the aboleth is making the case _appear to be_ -- not an easy task, especially if your players aren't used to thinking and doublethinking situations.
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I remember when Pathfinder was doing the reboot thing and they first unveiled goblins they had some crap story about hobgoblins being born of goblins but with more depravity and such. They were a 1 in 100 basically birth defect among goblins...eventually they grew up and terrorized the goblins of their community and would prey on their own at times.
i am glad they didn't stick with that but it seems they haven't done anything more with them besides saying "more militaristic and civilized" and falling back on the accepted version of them.
I wish we saw more of them in modules and paths.
Those weren't hobgoblins, those were (and still are) bugbears. Hobgoblins were always the more militarized and civilized goblinoid.
I will throw in Orcs...for such iconic bad guys, I think they have showed up only briefly in 1 AP
ah...that's right....
There is an under used monster, probably because Paizo made them almost unusable in any number with their fluff.
Or probably because they are oversaturated in other forms of media (Warhammer, Warcraft, Lord of the Rings).
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Twigjacks
"Oh hey what's up lil' stick dude, what're you doi-AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH"
I looked this up just to see what you mea-AGHHHHHHHHH.
I can see a party of level 2s getting horribly eviscerated by this thing. Alone.
Yep, ran a 1-5 PFS scenario this past weekend for a group of SEVEN pcs.
3 level 1's.
2 level 2's.
1 level 3.
1 level 4.They encountered one of these things, with "weakened" listed stats, in a fairly enclosed bramble-filled space...it got the jump on the party and I nearly PK'd three of them before it went down, including the level 4 PC.
Great group too, but these things are just horrifying in their chosen terrain.
Okay, I just took a good look at the twigjack, and holy crap they are no joke. Start off with that splinterspray ability, 4d6 in a 15 cone three times a day could ruin the lives of a lot of low level PCs. If you drop this thing in even a medium forest, it's going to bramble jump stealth, and at +22 stealth there aren't a whole lot of creatures going to make that perception check. Then you're talking about +2d6 sneak attack damage on the spear. For a CR 3 creature, this bad boy definitely has the capability of wiping the forest floor with just about any group of low level PCs. Oh the ideas... mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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I love using Fey as villains. Here's the thing: Most monsters are just evil. If you encounter a Bugbear, you know the solution is to kill it and just keep killing it until it's properly killed.
But dealing with Fey is a different beast altogether. Even quote unquote 'good' Fey are capricious, mercurial creatures that only offer the most cryptic of help or advice. A few, granted, are just plain ol' "Kill on Sight" baddies, but for the most part, you never quite know where you stand.
Sure, maybe you should kill that Satyr. But he may also be the only hope you have of finding a guide through the treacherous forest. But he may screw with you a bit on the way. But he might reward your diligence if you impress him. (Note to self: Idea for next session.)
Ditto with evil Druids. I think they get less attention because it's harder to picture the motivations for an evil Druid. What does an evil Druid want? A Cleric of Urgathoa is going to raise an army of zombies. A Cleric of Zon-Kuthon is going to 'enlighten' (re: torture) an entire city's worth of victims to appease his dark god. A Cleric of Asmodeus is going to instill a tyrannical dictatorship and trek with devils.
Evil Druids, though? Harder to pull off. Typically it's a noble goal (e.g. The protection of a sacred Grove) taken to an ideological extreme (e.g. Preemptively destroying every neighboring civilization as a potential threat.) but it seems like Paizo specifically introduced things like 'Plague Druids' just to make it easier to use them as bad guys.
I think Neutral Outsiders get under utilized. You see a lot of Angels vs Demons, Agathions vs Devils, Demons vs Devils, and so on, but very rarely do you get to see the Aeons or Kalyrauts getting involved.
Edit: OH! And evil gnomes. Where are all the evil gnomes? I think an evil gnome has the potential to be absolutely terrifying.
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Seriously, if you like using Fey, read the Dresden Files or possibly Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies.
Bloody hell they're scary forces of nature. Not good, not bad, just.... themselves
Motivation for Evil Druids? Easy peasy: completely giving into the primal urges of nature. Kill, eat, screw, no matter who it hurts. Animals and plants are not 'in balance'. They get balanced by starvation or predators. Given the chance, any given animal species would unthinkingly indulge in their urges until extinction. A druid who gives into that is evil by humanoid morality but 'natural' in the myriad eyes of Mother Nature.
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Edit: OH! And evil gnomes. Where are all the evil gnomes? I think an evil gnome has the potential to be absolutely terrifying.
Thanks to D&D having had an entire separate race of evil elves (the drow) and an entire race of evil dwarves (the duergar, plus possibly the derro), evil gnomes and halflings do seem to have gotten short shrift, by comparison. (Although there was an evil Halfling race in Book of Vile Darkness, and Athasian halflings were pretty scary...)
Evil gnomes can rock. All the capriciousness of a fey, combined with a mad scientist vibe.
Edit: OH! And evil gnomes. Where are all the evil gnomes? I think an evil gnome has the potential to be absolutely terrifying.Thanks to D&D having had an entire separate race of evil elves (the drow) and an entire race of evil dwarves (the duergar, plus possibly the derro), evil gnomes and halflings do seem to have gotten short shrift, by comparison. (Although there was an evil Halfling race in Book of Vile Darkness, and Athasian halflings were pretty scary...)
Evil gnomes can rock. All the capriciousness of a fey, combined with a mad scientist vibe.
I thought that svirfneblin filled that niche for gnomes...
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So there's an evil version of every single core race (exempting the half-humans)?
That's... kinda depressing really. Morality defined by genetics and ethnicity? Hm.
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Or probably because they are oversaturated in other forms of media (Warhammer, Warcraft, Lord of the Rings).
Or because once you let a race into the PC party it ceases to be a monster and becomes a person. The rise of the half-orc PC has seen a corresponding drop in the use of Orcs as monsters.
I also think this can be a problem in general which "monsters" as PCs. For instance I don't even think of Kobolds as monsters anymore.
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Svirfneblin are an exception to that, since, of all the 'races-what-live-underground,' they aren't evil. (I don't have a copy of my 1st edition Fiend Folio around, but I *think* they used to be NG, but as of 3rd edition, they are just N.)
Still, ignoring the fluff of Derro being degenerate humans, they'd make fine 'evil underpants gnomes (underdark gnomes, whatever)' if that's what you are looking for.
Edit: OH! And evil gnomes. Where are all the evil gnomes? I think an evil gnome has the potential to be absolutely terrifying.
Go to Midgard! That place is lousy with evil gnomes! Evil I say!
So you guys are complaining about not having aboleths in stuff? Shattered Star has them. Half of Reign of Winter is Fey. Hobgoblins have their own Kingdom in the "eastern" parts of the campaign world.
Heck, Hobgoblins are pretty amazing in home campaigns, I use them more than I use orcs or goblins. Dex+Con boost makes for a more survivable monster for both sides of the fight (full orcs makes PCs splat, goblins played right are scarily sneaky, my party has fought more than their share of goblin ninjas).
What about hippogryphs? Do they have HIPPOGRYPHS in those APs?
Seriously though, I suppose this thread is more about monsters not getting their due than about them making an appearance in a module/AP.
I like chokers. They're small, but have reach, grapple, and can fake Spring Attack with their Quickness ability. Or fake Pounce.
They also remind me of Smeagol.
Manticores are pretty butch too. They can be flying artillery or melee mayhem.
Speaking of Dark Fey....That is now my new AP wish.
YES! Seriously yes!
Speaking of Dark Fey....That is now my new AP wish.
Reign of Winter at least early on has quite a few evil fey. Imagine that, an AP about witches and such having a heavy fey influence. Also shattered star has some redcaps. Not the main thrust of that AP though.
Flumph... nuff' said.
A lot of the things people think are underused have actually been used quite a lot; just not in the games you've played. Kingmaker contains most of the things that are listed here as underused. (I won't say which, in case it constitutes a spoiler.)
Oh yeah Downie Fresh? Do they have DOLPHINS? That "monster" made it into Bestiary 1. Where's the DOLPHIN AP?
...
Sorry, just kind of lost my mind there...