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Yeah that was a typo, sorry guys.There is no "Sorry guys" when it comes to typos on the Internet.
Now hurry through that door. We're behind schedule on sausage production. Do try and remove any metalic bits on you, though speed takes priority.
<Scribbles on a notebook>
What have you eaten today? For classification. We pride ourselves on the taste of our sausages.
You're no longer allowed to refer to that as a sausage, it's now an emulsified high-fat offal tube.
I like the 2 terms rule as well. It's a pity they didn't have that in place when we were picking and choosing bits and pieces of other peoples constitutions. I think that leaders go stale if they are in too long.
I find it's more a case of they burn if they're in too long, but otherwise agreed. It's much better to consume them while they're still relatively fresh ;)
I dunno about eating leaders... they seem to be pretty old and untasty.
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As much as German politicians fail in their job I have high hopes that, some day in the future, people here in Bavaria realize that they are better off without the rest of Germany and we become a free sovereign country.
I for my part already tried to support it be voting for the Bavarian party in the recent state elections.One day the Free State of Bavaria will be free again.
"Would that be as the Arch-Duchy, Kingdom or Socialist Republic of Bavaria?"
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Or Holy Empire? =)
An impressively large part of my political views have been shaped by the Valerian and Laureline album Heroes of the Equinox. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about politics. It paints a pretty sad picture... but the older I get, the better I think it fits.
"Would that be as the Arch-Duchy, Kingdom or Socialist Republic of Bavaria?"
Kingdom (with the UK as a model) would be neat. But I guess it would be a Democratic Republic of Bavaria.
@Stebehil: The easiest way to get rid of Bavaria is to vote for the Bavarian party on the next election of the Bundestag. Sadly that's 4 years from now. And don't forget to make your friends and family vote for them, too.
In this political climate? Dear gods the grargosphere would be in full on mouth foam for a month.
Uh... someone... wants to be... like the UK???
Wow...
I dunno about eating leaders... they seem to be pretty old and untasty.
You guys don't ritually slaughter and eat your former leaders... I thought everybody did that?
I dunno about eating leaders... they seem to be pretty old and untasty.You guys don't ritually slaughter and eat your former leaders... I thought everybody did that?
Thats the problem with human politics.. no cost for failure for trying to be alpha.
Uh... someone... wants to be... like the UK???
Wow...
What I meant was to have a King or Queen who is a solid figurehead who represents the country with a government doing the real job of ruling. At least that's how I understood it works in the UK. So please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Kingdom (with the UK as a model) would be neat.
One royal family, going cheap! Any takers? £50 from Bavaria, do I hear £55... £55.... come on, they're in good condition (well, most of them) and barely used. Some of 'em still have quite a bit of life left in 'em, £55 is a steal.
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One royal family, going cheap! Any takers? £50 from Bavaria, do I hear £55... £55.... come on, they're in good condition (well, most of them) and barely used. Some of 'em still have quite a bit of life left in 'em, £55 is a steal.
Kingdom (with the UK as a model) would be neat.
They're all German anyway. Maybe we could lease them out in return for having a beer pipeline built under the North Sea!
They're all German anyway. Maybe we could lease them out in return for having a beer pipeline built under the North Sea!One royal family, going cheap! Any takers? £50 from Bavaria, do I hear £55... £55.... come on, they're in good condition (well, most of them) and barely used. Some of 'em still have quite a bit of life left in 'em, £55 is a steal.
Kingdom (with the UK as a model) would be neat.
Yep, they are - not that this would matter at all, with the european nobility being interrelated all over the place anyway.
But the Bavarian prime ministers pretty much rule as kings anyway, so there is no need to import any royality from elsewhere. King Horst the first - sounds neat, eh?@Gingerbreadman: as little as it matters anyway, but I would not like to waste my vote like that. I don´t think that the bavarian party is on the list here anyway, so even if I wanted to, I could not vote for them.
You're no longer allowed to refer to that as a sausage, it's now an emulsified high-fat offal tube.Yeah that was a typo, sorry guys.There is no "Sorry guys" when it comes to typos on the Internet.
Now hurry through that door. We're behind schedule on sausage production. Do try and remove any metalic bits on you, though speed takes priority.
<Scribbles on a notebook>
What have you eaten today? For classification. We pride ourselves on the taste of our sausages.
Well then, our emulsified high-fat offal tubes are the best emulsified high-fat offal tubes this side of the Grand Bazaar of Istambul. We use actual emuslsified high-fat offal... on a 3% concentration, of course. We have to make a living here!
Now, could I interest you in a 7-pack?
Uh... someone... wants to be... like the UK???
Wow...
Thats totally understandable.
http://youtu.be/1vh-wEXvdW8More seriously : we have a reasonable standard of living, low crime rates, the much maligned NHS is actually a bloody good thing (despite what gets said in the US) although certainly not perfect, our racial issues are less than most countries (but still present), and you can get a decent cup of tea here (unlike america).
On the down side , we have high tax rates, are paid crap, could do with some decent political leaders - right now our three main parties are all clones (with one looking like he's about to say "more cheese gromit?" At any second)- and somehow our coffee culture has been corrupted by the god-awful megachain coffee ... But overall,its not too bad.
Plus,like we swapped out Piers Morgan to the US and the US gave us Jennifer Connolly in return....so I'd say we arent doing too badly :-p
The idea is that since it's a democracy, and there are good things about living in Germany, you are partly responsible for some of it just because you have partaken in the democratic process. Every country has crap laws here and there, there is always a measure of corruption... but if we never celebrate the good things about democracy, it's not going to last long.
Also, there is the whole thing of belonging: I don't remember the exact words, but there was a very interesting article detailing the importance of patriotism as a mean of creating a national identity, and how that's fundamental in the process of human relations.
Since we are social creatures, we depend on social structures to function properly. And said structures work better when people feel both entitled and responsible about them, which cannot happen if they don't value it.
The idea is that since it's a democracy, and there are good things about living in Germany, you are partly responsible for some of it just because you have partaken in the democratic process. Every country has crap laws here and there, there is always a measure of corruption... but if we never celebrate the good things about democracy, it's not going to last long.Also, there is the whole thing of belonging: I don't remember the exact words, but there was a very interesting article detailing the importance of patriotism as a mean of creating a national identity, and how that's fundamental in the process of human relations.
Considering Nationalism is a surprisngly new concept, I'm not sure the argument hold alot of water..for 99% of mankinds existznce we didnt have it.
Youre quite right we need social structures, of course, but nationalism is fairly "new".Thats not me arguing against nationalism, (or for it, either)...
As for democracy...well, I'm rather with Winston Churchill on that subject.
There certainly a significant minority in the UK rather disenchanted with their democratic choices right now ; the main parties are too similar. That said, most Brits are too lazy to really do anything about it either...not an ideal situation. "You get the government you deserve"...
The idea is that since it's a democracy, and there are good things about living in Germany, you are partly responsible for some of it just because you have partaken in the democratic process. Every country has crap laws here and there, there is always a measure of corruption... but if we never celebrate the good things about democracy, it's not going to last long.Also, there is the whole thing of belonging: I don't remember the exact words, but there was a very interesting article detailing the importance of patriotism as a mean of creating a national identity, and how that's fundamental in the process of human relations.
Considering Nationalism is a surprisngly new concept, I'm not sure the argument hold alot of water..for 99% of mankinds existznce we didnt have it.
Youre quite right we need social structures, of course, but nationalism is fairly "new".Thats not me arguing against nationalism, (or for it, either)... But
As for democracy...well, I'm rather with Winston Churchill on that subject.
Nationalism is merely a newer expresion of the same underlying ideal. It is true the concept of nation as we understand it today is mostly a modern construct, but that doesn't mean humans suddenly started identifying themselves within their cultural groups spontaneously in the XV-XVII centuries.
Today is the concept of belonging to a German nation; in the past it perhaps the concept of belonging to a specific German tribe. Nationalism took over when we started thinking in terms of nations; several historians agree that one of the reasons for the decline of religious fervor in the Modern Era was, precisely, that Nationalism took over as the overriding ideal of belonging.
Interesting point, hadnt thought of it that way.
All, humans seem to always have had a need for a concept of "people within my tribe" and "people outside my tribe"..logical in survival terms....I suppose nationalism is indeed just a name for one flavour of that.
I think nationalism is too abstract to be helpful in forming an identity, unless pushed to the extreme. Part of ones identity normally is ones hometown (or whatever you call the place you live in), which is normally a comprehensive scale. Furthermore, European nations are by no means stable entities - the borders changed time and again, nations merged and split, people living near the borders may change their nationalities due to political developments. At present, it is not entirely clear if Belgium will remain one nation, it could fall apart.
Furthermore, by using nationality as a definition of identity, exclusion of others (foreigners) is inevitable. This kind of identity can build an "us vs. them" mentality and could lead to xenophobia (or strenghten it - I think a certain measure of xenophobia is all but inevitable, but how you deal with that makes a difference).
Anyway, what constitutes a nationality? Language? Birthplace? Ancestry? Some government act, like issuing papers? That gets muddy fast, and is not very helpful IMO, as you could rightfully argue against any of these points.
I certainly agree that an us versus them attitude can fostered by nationalism - and indeed any sort of tribalism ( not just race, nationality or class... look at soccer hooligans for instance)
Sadly, i think its party of our nature to be tribal. It was, after all, how we evolved...I think the best we can do is recognise it and try to use its good aspects , and overcome its bad aspects when we can.
Us-vs-Them can rise out of any sort of identification: We're men, they are women; we're rich, they are poor; we're skinny, they are fat. The thing is that it doesn't have to be an Us-vs-Them situation; it can very well be Us-and-Them, which I believe is the predominant attitude or otherwise there would be none of us left.
The fact that Us-vs-Them situattions arise out of nationalistic ideas shows us that it is an important element in terms of identity, important enough that it can drive people to fight over it. But nationalism is in itself neutral.
Now, probably we have very different outlooks on the background of nationalism and thus we interpret under opposite lights. For context, I come from a country whose last war happened in 1883, and where the concept of nationalism is mostly associated with community, selfless service and mutual support, rather than with conflict or discrimination. Which makes me further emphatize the point that nationalism doesn't need to be an extreme thing to become a common denominator between individuals.
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Exactly. I dont think we actually are that far apart in our views;
..bringing people together is the good aspect of tribalism... We should always strive to promote that aspect, while rejecting the us-vs-them.
Like many things nationalism is a tool, and can be used for both good and bad things...it is up to us to make the world better by using it for postive things, not negative.
(Incidentally, i dont think my view is particularly to do with my nationality..most of my friends think i'm very cynical about the human condition too !. )
Yes, the us-vs-them topic can (and does) appear in any group that has anything in common. It probably is a very old behavioural pattern, as the group you know helps you dealing with the unknown and probably dangerous. This seems to be true for all animals living in groups. (This is perhaps why treason is viewed as a horrible crime - betraying your own group is akin to attacking them from behind)
Nationalism has been abused to engender outright hate against all foreigners. Europe has seen enough of that in the 19th and 20th century. That is perhaps one reason why we are so wary in that regard. In can be a positive thing if used wisely, but it is something from the past IMO.
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There certainly a significant minority in the UK rather disenchanted with their democratic choices right now ; the main parties are too similar. That said, most Brits are too lazy to really do anything about it either...not an ideal situation. "You get the government you deserve"...
Alas, it isn't laziness as much as what I'd like to do about it would end up with me doing life (or the opposite), and likely replacing Mr. Fawkes on the 5th of November.
Pinker wrote about the Expanding Circle. It is a very interesting idea, in that it tries to explain the worldwide shrinking amount of violence throughout history as an effect of us being able to empathize with more and more people, through contact, as our ease of communication and travel grows. Sure enough, primitive tribes, far from the noble savages of myth, have constant death tolls per capita equal to the worst WWI dealt out.
This intersects with group identity pretty easily. If we can empathize with another people, we can commit to larger political unity with them, which makes everyone involved stronger and provides an identity. This has gone from the feudal village, to the market town, to the industrial city, with surrounding lands, and from there to nationalistic constructs around the 19th century, and now to transnational unions. Most countries still have the old leadership structures, as lower level decision makers. It is just that if you live in Northern Muddington, that identity no longer provides much to separate you from someone from Southern Muddington. That you have another identity as a Brit, however, says far more about you, when compared to someone from France. This is what the nationalists were doing, building a national identity. However, try as they might, I have yet to hear of someone who considered themselves a European first and their national identity second. Identities are built either by excluding someone else, which the EU refuse to do (with good reason), or by providing a coherent world view, culture, art, celebrations, ideals... And the EU never even tried for those. A sense of community makes a lot of things easier - but it doesn't happen on its own.
Identities are built either by excluding someone else, which the EU refuse to do (with good reason), or by providing a coherent world view, culture, art, celebrations, ideals... And the EU never even tried for those. A sense of community makes a lot of things easier - but it doesn't happen on its own.
I'm not completely sure about that - IIRC, the reasons for excluding Turkey were (at least partially) cultural - it wasn't a 'European' (i.e. nominally Christian) country. The EU has made stabs at building a European identity (which some politicians, Rompuy for example, would probably like to base on the old concept of Christendom) - 'Ode to Joy' as the anthem, for example, but it'd be fair to say that it hasn't caught on to any great extent
I'm not completely sure about that - IIRC, the reasons for excluding Turkey were (at least partially) cultural - it wasn't a 'European' (i.e. nominally Christian) country. The EU has made stabs at building a European identity (which some politicians, Rompuy for example, would probably like to base on the old concept of Christendom) - 'Ode to Joy' as the anthem, for example, but it'd be fair to say that it hasn't caught on to any great extent
I think with Turkey one reason is that democratic and law standards are below par - not that european standards are universally high throughout. It is a cultural thing as well, with could be boiled down to religion. Turkey is of course islamic, even if it is a laicistic state by its constitution. (But there is a noted trend away from that, propagated by Erdogan, trying to reintroduce religious notions). Not that all other european countries are purely laicistic, far from it. Religion has had a huge influence on the culture, of course. (see Bavaria as an example - catholic christendom still plays an important role there.)
Some folks argue that most of Turkey is in Asia, so it does not belong to Europe at all.There are talks between the EU and Turkey. German politicians make sure to note that these talks are open-ended and that Germany prefers a "priviledged partnership" instead of a full membership.
Well, the Eurovision Song Contest doesn't seem to have any qualms about accepting entries from halfway round the world.
And horrible ones for the most part...
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Well, the Eurovision Song Contest doesn't seem to have any qualms about accepting entries from halfway round the world.And horrible ones for the most part...
I believe the line of thinking goes something like "Ye gods, anything has to be better than what we accepted last year."
Followed shortly after the event by
"Well. I guess we were wrong about that."
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The one and only true emperor is of course ... ** spoiler omitted **
Let the lamp affix its beam.
The only emperor
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In France, nobody would have batted an eyelash. Except of course for the losing opposition (if they are the right wing one, as is currently the case) who would have impotently screamed outrage at the dishonoring of our sacred flag.
A left wing opposition might rather have tried some funny/satyrical comments about this. To no more effect of course.
The system we have in place since 2002 boils down to "let's give this guy the keys to the whole country for 5 years to do with AS HE DAMN WELL PLEASES".
And then the voters lament their choice for the next 5 years :-/
The system we have in place since 2002 boils down to "let's give this guy the keys to the whole country for 5 years to do with AS HE DAMN WELL PLEASES".And then the voters lament their choice for the next 5 years :-/
So we have some countries like this, and some where people vote and the people they elected can't get anything done at all :)
The question is, then, does anyone, anywhere, actually have (or is even aware of) a political system that actually *works*?
Personally, I'm starting to think the big electronic brain idea isn't that bad after all.
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The system we have in place since 2002 boils down to "let's give this guy the keys to the whole country for 5 years to do with AS HE DAMN WELL PLEASES".And then the voters lament their choice for the next 5 years :-/
So we have some countries like this, and some where people vote and the people they elected can't get anything done at all :)
The question is, then, does anyone, anywhere, actually have (or is even aware of) a political system that actually *works*?
Personally, I'm starting to think the big electronic brain idea isn't that bad after all.
If your country is not ravaged by coup d'etats, civil wars, revolutions, dictatorships, and/or secessions, you can probably say your political system works.
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If your country is not ravaged by coup d'etats, civil wars, revolutions, dictatorships, and/or secessions, you can probably say your political system works.
Pretty much this.
Any system of government run by human people who actually *want* to be 'the leader' is going to be dominated by cronyism, corruption, nepotism and the golden rule (he who has the gold, makes the rules). As with pretty much everything we ever did in school (or team sports), the kid who thinks that he's the best choice to be in charge is *always* the very last person that should be in charge (and, so often, utterly unqualified to hand out towels to the rest of the team).
Any system of government (such as by computer, or the Mameluke system) in which we've gone so far as to abdicate our own hands-off 'I'll complain about it, but not lift a finger to change it' system of so-called 'representative' government, will probably end with us being made into sausage by who or whatever we elected to make our decisions for us because we couldn't be bothered to do it ourselves.
I don't remember who said it, but 'Democracy is the worst system of government in the world. Except for all the others...' :)
Any system of government run by human people who actually *want* to be 'the leader' is going to be dominated by cronyism, corruption, nepotism and the golden rule (he who has the gold, makes the rules).
Mmm, I've always been of the opinion the main problem with politics is that it's got too many career politicians - people that want to be there for their own reasons, and want to advance along that career path.
The few people in it because they really do want what is best for the people tend to get lost in the independents and nobody votes for them because they can never get enough power to do any good.
Now, the response I tend to get to this is "So you'd rather have someone there that doesn't understand how things work?"
To which my response is "Look at things now. Do you really feel we have people in charge that know how things work?"
The one and only true emperor is of course ... ** spoiler omitted **
I'd have gone with Augustus Octavian. :)
Edit: Ninja'd by Klaus.
I find it impossible to imagine something like that (the video) happening in the United States. Only two, small flags, on the podium at the swearing in ceremony? I think not.
It was not the swearing ceremony, it was just the election party after it was clear that the conservative party (the CDU) had (once again - sigh) won the election. Obviously, she found flag-waving at that occasion inappropriate - which it might be, as it is an election party from her party (a party party?), not anything official. The guy she takes it from is Hermann Gröhe, who is secretary general of the conservative party. What it shows clearly is that Merkel rules the CDU, which is nothing new either.
Generally, germans are more prone to flag-weaving since the soccer world championship in Germany in 2008, which was a peaceful party for the most part. Overall, the flag is shown much less than in the US. Open patriotism is viewed with some suspicion over here, it is put close to an extreme right-wing mindset by many people.
To be honest, I don´t see the point in being a patriot - by chance, I´m born in Germany. So what? What is the point in being proud of the uncontrollable circumstances of ones birthplace? If something special is achieved by germans in any way, that can be something to be proud of, maybe. I´m proud of my two degrees, yes. But that has nothing to do with me being a german.
Except the fact that you didn't have to go into mounds of debt for those two degrees is also based upon your fortunate birth in Deutschland as opposed to the US.... (That is a negative comment about our educational system not yours by the way, in case it wasn't clear). :)
The idea is that since it's a democracy, and there are good things about living in Germany, you are partly responsible for some of it just because you have partaken in the democratic process. Every country has crap laws here and there, there is always a measure of corruption... but if we never celebrate the good things about democracy, it's not going to last long.I basically agree - but with Kohl reigning 16 years and Merkel now aspiring to 12 years, this is damaging to democracy IMO. I do like the US law that a president may only serve 2 times. The way Merkel treats the NSA affair (by basically ignoring it as much as possible and sending her paladins to the front if absolutely necessary) shows that the democracy is damaged already.
It was only tradition that was started by George Washington until after Roosevelt. Wouldn't it be a harder process to encode with a parliamentary election process? Although my memory is that Germany has a mixed process? Maybe you could remind me?
Except the fact that you didn't have to go into mounds of debt for those two degrees is also based upon your fortunate birth in Deutschland as opposed to the US.... (That is a negative comment about our educational system not yours by the way, in case it wasn't clear). :)To be honest, I don´t see the point in being a patriot - by chance, I´m born in Germany. So what? What is the point in being proud of the uncontrollable circumstances of ones birthplace? If something special is achieved by germans in any way, that can be something to be proud of, maybe. I´m proud of my two degrees, yes. But that has nothing to do with me being a german.I find it impossible to imagine something like that (the video) happening in the United States. Only two, small flags, on the podium at the swearing in ceremony? I think not.
Yeah, but that's a reason to be thankful, not to be proud of the country of your birth.
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Have a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor...
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I don't remember who said it, but 'Democracy is the worst system of government in the world. Except for all the others...' :)
Although I'm not sure if he was the original quoter, Winston Churchill is recorded as having said ;
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
It was only tradition that was started by George Washington until after Roosevelt. Wouldn't it be a harder process to encode with a parliamentary election process? Although my memory is that Germany has a mixed process? Maybe you could remind me?
I knew that it was a tradition at some point, but I think it is law by now?
I´m not sure if I get you right there, but the German chancellor is not directly elected by the voters - you vote for direct candidates with one vote and for a political party with your second vote. The direct candidates are roughly one half of the politicians in the Bundestag (parliament), the list or party candidates the other half. (Very roughly, and the electoral laws are disputed at the moment, but that would be too much detail). It is a mix of majority and proportional systems.
The Bundestag has to find a majority, who then elects a chancellor, who in turn appoints the various secretaries (called Minister over here).
For a long time in Germanys history after the war, the parliament had only three parties: CDU (christian-conservative), SPD (social-democratic, left wing) and FDP (liberal), with the FDP being the smallest by far. Overall, the conservative party was in power most of the time, either alone or in a coalition. The Green party entered the Bundestag in 1983 for the first time, and were part of a ruling SPD-Grüne coalition from 1998 to 2005. ("Rot-Grün" - red being the traditional color of the SPD, with the CDU having black and the FDP yellow and blue). This past election, the FDP did not manage to get into the Bundestag for the first time since 1949, since the very beginning of after-war Germanys democracy. Since the late 90ies, the PDS/die Linke, a socialist party being the latest incarnation of the former SED, the ruling party in the former GDR, is part of the Bundestag as well. So, the political picture has changed a lot in the past 30 years, and will probably continue to change, and becoming more fractured, in accordance with the society drifting apart somewhat. Ruling will not get any easier in the future.
At present, politicians of the CDU (who basically won the election) are talking to the SPD and to the Green party to see which coalition can be formed. I guess it will bei SPD-CDU again, which would finally reduce the SPD to rubble IMO. The last so-called "big coalition" between these to ended with the SPD losing the following elections big time, because Merkel managed to lay every blame on them and put every success on her own list.
Merkel "expressed her fullest confidence" in the FDP right before the elections. This is kind of a political joke by now: she managed to "express her full (or even fullest) confidence" to some secretaries in her cabinet, who had to go shortly after that. So, if she does use that phrase by now, the so adressed has to leave office soon - hey, it even worked on the Pope :-). The joke is now, that after a full term (four years), she will "express her full confidence" to the SPD. That would be a shame for a party having been founded in 1863, but they have it coming, as they have left their former profile a long time ago.