Could I get a link?
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Here's a revolutionary idea: get rid of half races!
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I want my half-halfings! I will call them quarterlings.
Genocide, that's nice
Not exactly what I had in mind! :D
Half-breed genocide could make an interesting template to a campaign world. Not exactly for the casual gaming group though...
If it wasn't obvious, I meant get rid of the half orcs and half elves, absorb their qualities into the parent race.
You're splitting hairs. I thought my meaning was implied. Certain half elf qualities would be absorbed into elves, and certain half Orc qualities would be absorbed into orcs. And this has nothing to do with the original topic. It's a tangent.
Welcome to a few days ago :)
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Probably still won't allow the Witchdoctor for Half-Orcs. And if I do, they're using Intelligence to cast.
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Suddenly
100 Half-Orc Scarred Witchdoctors appear on PFS tables around the land
The pfs specific ruling that the arg rules are ONLY for their respective races will thankfully prevent this from happening. Unless that was revoked.
The pfs specific ruling that the arg rules are ONLY for their respective races will thankfully prevent this from happening. Unless that was revoked.Suddenly
100 Half-Orc Scarred Witchdoctors appear on PFS tables around the land
Even if it was revoked (which I don't think it was), all the orc stuff in the ARG isn't PFS legal anyway.
Start it up in a thread of its own instead of derailing someone else's thread.
I gather you haven't seen a properly derailed thread. You'd be hard pressed to find threads that stay 100% on topic, and there's nothing in the forum rules that says it has to.
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...Certain half elf qualities would be absorbed into elves, and certain half Orc qualities would be absorbed into orcs...
I really like this idea. Alternate racial traits already accomplish the mechanics quite well. Say start with Human, then have Orc Heritage as an alternate racial trait which replaces Skilled the bonus feat with everything a half orc normally gets. There is even a precedent for referencing racial traits as prerequisites with feats like Catfolk Exemplar and Draconic Aspect.
That said, I really like this ruling with the current system. The concept that a Half-Orc isn't Orc-ey enough to ritually cut themselves really bothered me. I always enjoy more character options and more flexibility rather than less.
What a terrible idea :(. So there's no reason ever to play an elf, playing a half-elf is just plain better, better, better? Maybe they should add a -5 hp/level penalty for playing an elf, just in case the player somehow missed the message that not playing a half-elf is BadWrongFun.
Here's a revolutionary idea: get rid of half races!
What's funny about this was that's exactly what I proposed for oen of the settings I'm working on.
However this wasn't due to any balancing issue or any setting flavor particularly. It was due entirely for a need to cut some words out of the book and save the company a few bucks. So, I genocided the half races with horrible necromantic plagues.
As a GM I've wiped out entire cities with natural disasters simply because the pc's were passing through and I couldn't be arsed to describe the city in full.
Tark God is an old testament sort of god....if god was lazy.
What a terrible idea :(. So there's no reason ever to play an elf, playing a half-elf is just plain better, better, better? Maybe they should add a -5 hp/level penalty for playing an elf, just in case the player somehow missed the message that not playing a half-elf is BadWrongFun.
Elves have several abilities that trump half elves. They make better intelligence based casters for one.
Brace yourself.
Half-elves are coming.
Half-Orcs en masse will soon arrive
Elves have several abilities that trump half elves. They make better intelligence based casters for one.
That's very much a matter of opinion. I'd rather have Con than Dex on an intelligence based caster. And I'm pretty sure I can make a better int based caster with the ability to cherry pick any combination of the abilities of elves, half-elves, and humans I want than I can restricted to the abilities of elves.
Elves have several abilities that trump half elves. They make better intelligence based casters for one.That's very much a matter of opinion. I'd rather have Con than Dex on an intelligence based caster. And I'm pretty sure I can make a better int based caster with the ability to cherry pick any combination of the abilities of elves, half-elves, and humans I want than I can restricted to the abilities of elves.
Actually, Dex is often considered the Secondary stat to wizards.
Additionally, Elves happen to also have a racial "spell penetration" that stacks with spell penetration. All in all, elves are THE wizard race.
Now granted of course just simply cherry picking abilities from 3 different races will net you a fairly powerful race, but that is simply a stupid and illogical thing to do (oh how about I go ahead and grab the elven spell penetration ability with the human's extra feat to grab spell penetration and haven Elven Immunities, that sounds cool right?)
Elves have several abilities that trump half elves. They make better intelligence based casters for one.That's very much a matter of opinion. I'd rather have Con than Dex on an intelligence based caster. And I'm pretty sure I can make a better int based caster with the ability to cherry pick any combination of the abilities of elves, half-elves, and humans I want than I can restricted to the abilities of elves.
You're certainly in the minority with this opinion. With all the bonuses to spellcraft, overcome spell resistance, etc, elves have lots of candy. And the vast majority of people prefer dex over con for any pure caster (except the witch doctor, and the rage prophet ragecaster.)
Actually, Dex is often considered the Secondary stat to wizards.
That's why I said "matter of opinion".
Additionally, Elves happen to also have a racial "spell penetration" that stacks with spell penetration. All in all, elves are THE wizard race.
Except that half-elves get that now, if they want it.
Now granted of course just simply cherry picking abilities from 3 different races will net you a fairly powerful race, but that is simply a stupid and illogical thing to do (oh how about I go ahead and grab the elven spell penetration ability with the human's extra feat to grab spell penetration and haven Elven Immunities, that sounds cool right?)
Allowing people to do exactly that sort of thing is the point of this change.
Maybe I just happen to play with unusually liberal DM's, but most DM's I know will allow you a player to take something that's not strictly speaking legal if it fits in with the flavor of the character. What we wouldn't have allowed is what you say. But now, "Paizo says we can have spell penetration and the extra feat and Elven Immunities."
What a terrible idea :(. So there's no reason ever to play an elf, playing a half-elf is just plain better, better, better? Maybe they should add a -5 hp/level penalty for playing an elf, just in case the player somehow missed the message that not playing a half-elf is BadWrongFun.
Well, considering that a half-elf can't take elven racial traits there is still a reason to be a pure elf. Some of those racials are very, very good. Likewise, RP is an excellent reason to play an elf. This change just makes the half elf and the half orc MUCH stronger than they were previously.
However, I personally think that this ruling shows a need for a feat, trait, or some sort of ability that would allow other characters to bend the rules regarding whether or not you qualify for a racial archetype. Personally, I thought the entire concept of, "ONLY HALF-ORCS CAN BE REDEEMERS" and "ONLY HALF-ELVES CAN BE WITCHES WITH A MAGIC BOOK AS THEIR FAMILIAR" was a pretty poor idea anyway.
Here's a revolutionary idea: get rid of half races!That's not revolutionary, that's Shadowrun.
Or Warhammer, Or Earthdawn, or Runequest...
Actually, Dex is often considered the Secondary stat to wizards.That's why I said "matter of opinion".
Additionally, Elves happen to also have a racial "spell penetration" that stacks with spell penetration. All in all, elves are THE wizard race.Except that half-elves get that now, if they want it.
Now granted of course just simply cherry picking abilities from 3 different races will net you a fairly powerful race, but that is simply a stupid and illogical thing to do (oh how about I go ahead and grab the elven spell penetration ability with the human's extra feat to grab spell penetration and haven Elven Immunities, that sounds cool right?)Allowing people to do exactly that sort of thing is the point of this change.
Maybe I just happen to play with unusually liberal DM's, but most DM's I know will allow you a player to take something that's not strictly speaking legal if it fits in with the flavor of the character. What we wouldn't have allowed is what you say. But now, "Paizo says we can have spell penetration and the extra feat and Elven Immunities."
Except that's not what's been opened up at all. They opened up Favored Class Bonuses, archetypes, and TRAITS. This word might cause some confusion, as the abilities listed under a race are called traits. But more likely is that they're saying you can choose Racial Traits as in the traits listed in the Player Companion books and the back of the APG.
I don't KNOW if I'm right here, but I've seen that exact language trip people up before and one of the Paizo people coming along (I can't remember whom, or what thread, so I'm not claiming this as irrefutable truth or anything) and correcting that misconception and clearing up that it only refers to Traits as in the chosen abilities, and not traits as in what you get for being an Elf automatically.
Actually, Dex is often considered the Secondary stat to wizards.That's why I said "matter of opinion".
Additionally, Elves happen to also have a racial "spell penetration" that stacks with spell penetration. All in all, elves are THE wizard race.Except that half-elves get that now, if they want it.
Now granted of course just simply cherry picking abilities from 3 different races will net you a fairly powerful race, but that is simply a stupid and illogical thing to do (oh how about I go ahead and grab the elven spell penetration ability with the human's extra feat to grab spell penetration and haven Elven Immunities, that sounds cool right?)Allowing people to do exactly that sort of thing is the point of this change.
Maybe I just happen to play with unusually liberal DM's, but most DM's I know will allow you a player to take something that's not strictly speaking legal if it fits in with the flavor of the character. What we wouldn't have allowed is what you say. But now, "Paizo says we can have spell penetration and the extra feat and Elven Immunities."
1) I am pretty certain that nearly all wizards prefer dex over con (Gish characters being the exception)
2) Actually no they cannot. When Paizo said that half races can pick elven traits, they mean than when you make your character, of the 2 traits you can pick at creation (you know, things like magical knack and what have you) you can now pick the ones exclusive to elves (there where a few of the traits that were solely exclusive to certain races).
3) Well that is GM fiat and an extreme divation from the rules. Additionally, it would make it so that EVERYONE would simply rather play the half-breed with them pretty much being strictly better than their single half counterparts.
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Remember folks, Racial Traits =/= Race Traits.
The former are the abilities that your race grants you. The latter are character traits (see Advanced Player's Guide) that can only be selected by members of a particular race. This ruling does not let you Frankenstien the racial traits of two separate races together.
1) I am pretty certain that nearly all wizards prefer dex over con (Gish characters being the exception)
The spirit of my elf witch who died last month because of her con penalty disagrees. Granted, as long as you don't end up dying from the difference, dex is better.
Except that's not what's been opened up at all. They opened up Favored Class Bonuses, archetypes, and TRAITS. This word might cause some confusion, as the abilities listed under a race are called traits. But more likely is that they're saying you can choose Racial Traits as in the traits listed in the Player Companion books and the back of the APG.
2) Actually no they cannot. When Paizo said that half races can pick elven traits, they mean than when you make your character, of the 2 traits you can pick at creation (you know, things like magical knack and what have you) you can now pick the ones exclusive to elves (there where a few of the traits that were solely exclusive to certain races).
Remember folks, Racial Traits =/= Race Traits.
The former are the abilities that your race grants you. The latter are character traits (see Advanced Player's Guide) that can only be selected by members of a particular race. This ruling does not let you Frankenstien the racial traits of two separate races together.
The interpretation of the rules that you guys are making is sane, makes sense, and is probably what Paizo meant. But it's not what they wrote:
...Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on...
That quite definitely says they can select racial traits. That's what it explicitly says. If the adjective "racial" applies to "archetypes" it also applies to "traits". "Race traits" are presumably? arguably? covered by the "and so on".
Having said that, I still don't think that making an already strong race even stronger is a good decision. Half-elves were already better than elves for everything except int-based arcane casters, and very competitive in that IMO. I don't think they needed to be buffed. Oh well.
Remember folks, Racial Traits =/= Race Traits.
The former are the abilities that your race grants you. The latter are character traits (see Advanced Player's Guide) that can only be selected by members of a particular race. This ruling does not let you Frankenstien the racial traits of two separate races together.
Can we sticky this somewhere?
The interpretation of the rules that you guys are making is sane, makes sense, and is probably what Paizo meant. But it's not what they wrote:
...Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on...That quite definitely says they can select racial traits. That's what it explicitly says. If the adjective "racial" applies to "archetypes" it also applies to "traits". "Race traits" are presumably? arguably? covered by the "and so on".
So show me when and where in character creation you get to "pick" your racial traits. No, you pick a race, and that gives you your Racial Traits. You are then allowed to take the Racial Traits that you have and trade them for other Racial Traits. At most a Half-Elf or Half-Orc would be able to trade in Racial Traits that both their race (Half-whatever) and one of the other races (Human, Elf, Orc, depending on the halfbreed) have in common for a Alternative Racial Trait of the respective base race. Now, let's look at the Racial Traits of the Half-Elf and Half-Orc compared to their respective parent races.
Half-Elf
~~~~~~~~
+2 to One Ability Score
Medium
Normal Speed
Low-Light Vision
Adaptability
Elf Blood
Elven Immunities
Keen Senses
Multitalented
Languages
Human
~~~~~
+2 to One Ability Score
Medium
Normal Speed
Bonus Feat
Skilled
Languages
Elf
~~~
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Medium
Normal Speed
Low-Light Vision
Elven Immunities
Elven Magic
Keen Senses
Weapon Familiarity
Languages
Half-Elf/Human Commonalities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+2 to One Ability Score
Medium
Normal Speed
Languages
Half-Elf/Elf Commonalities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Medium
Normal Speed
Low-Light Vision
Elven Immunities
Keen Senses
Human Alternate Racial Traits Accessible to a Half-Elf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(NONE)
Elven Alternate Racial Traits Accessible to a Half-Elf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Darkvision
Dreamspeaker
Elemental Resistance
Urbanite
Half-Orc
~~~~~~~~
+2 to One Ability Score
Medium
Normal Speed
Darkvision
Intimidating
Orc Blood
Orc Ferocity
Weapon Familiarity
Languages
Human
~~~~~
(See above)
Orc
~~~
+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Orc
Medium
Normal Speed
Darkvision
Light Sensitivity
Ferocity
Weapon Familiarity
Languages
Half-Orc/Human Commonalities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+2 to One Ability Score
Medium
Normal Speed
Languages
Half-Orc/Orc Commonalities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Medium
Normal Speed
Darkvision
Weapon Familiarity
Languages
Human Alternate Racial Traits Accessible to a Half-Orc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(NONE)
Orc Alternate Racial Traits Accessible to a Half-Orc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feral
That's it, IF you're interpretation that Racial Traits are included and they didn't just mean Race Traits. Would you consider these to be game breaking, or making a halfbreed to be better than the parent races?
Game breaking? No. (But a FAQ ruling should make the game better; "the FAQ ruling isn't game breaking" isn't much of a recommendation.) Yes, I do think it makes half-elves better than elves. They pretty much were already, except in isolated cases.
Agree with Balgin.
Those are not the traits they are talking about. They don't mean that you can now choose (as a half-elf) to have the Elven Magic from the elf. It means you can now choose (as a half-elf) the Forlorn trait that was originally only available to elves.
Thinking otherwise is just people being obtuse. It's also Paizo's fault for not thinking people would make such a bad connection between the 2 very different types of "traits". They should have called "traits" (those choices typically found at the beginning of AP player guides) something completely different, so we don't get people saying "But they meant I can take Elven Magic or the Human Bonus Feat!".
The pfs specific ruling that the arg rules are ONLY for their respective races will thankfully prevent this from happening. Unless that was revoked.Suddenly
100 Half-Orc Scarred Witchdoctors appear on PFS tables around the land
Where can I find that ruling?
The interpretation of the rules that you guys are making is sane, makes sense, and is probably what Paizo meant. But it's not what they wrote.
There's absolutely no "arguably" here because your implication, that you could select actual "racial traits" makes no sense because there is no context for how you could select them.
The game informs you of how to select archetypes and feats. You need to be a member of a particular race, so elven blood / orc blood allows you to meet that prerequisite. But if we take the full phrase as "selecting racial traits," then that would mean you could follow the alternate racial traits rules, in which case you would get absolutely no benefit because you do not possess the necessary elven racial traits to exchange for alternate elven racial traits. And there is no ability that allows you to select racial traits that you would already possess.
This is a perfect example of where common sense trumps RAW, and if you try to justify it otherwise, you're trying to break the game.
But you are correct in that this entire discussion could have been avoided if they had referred to "character traits" instead. Then there would have been no confusion (although you basically have to be purposefully failing your Will saving throw to be confused by this ruling.)
There's absolutely no "arguably" here because your implication, that you could select actual "racial traits" makes no sense because there is no context for how you could select them.
This is a perfect example of where common sense trumps RAW, and if you try to justify it otherwise, you're trying to break the game.
Huh? Someone (not me) arguing that one core race, half elves, should get 100% of the stuff that makes another core race, elves, cool/interesting/worth playing, is trying to break the game, but as long as you're only arguing that half elves should get 97% of the stuff that makes another core race cool/interesting/worth playing - which Paizo has ruled they get - that's somehow not trying to break the game? These aren't significantly different things. "Elven magic" is the only elven racial that half elves can't get (elven weapon familiarity can already be obtained by characters of any race through a feat), and it's not all that.
With this ruling there's no reason to have elves as a playable race at all, except for players who want to gimp themselves for the fun of gimping themselves.
There's absolutely no "arguably" here because your implication, that you could select actual "racial traits" makes no sense because there is no context for how you could select them.This is a perfect example of where common sense trumps RAW, and if you try to justify it otherwise, you're trying to break the game.Huh? Someone (not me) arguing that one core race, half elves, should get 100% of the stuff that makes another core race, elves, cool/interesting/worth playing, is trying to break the game, but as long as you're only arguing that half elves should get 97% of the stuff that makes another core race cool/interesting/worth playing - which Paizo has ruled they get - that's somehow not trying to break the game? These aren't significantly different things. "Elven magic" is the only elven racial that half elves can't get (elven weapon familiarity can already be obtained by characters of any race through a feat), and it's not all that.
With this ruling there's no reason to have elves as a playable race at all, except for players who want to gimp themselves for the fun of gimping themselves.
What, exactly, do you think this ruling lets half-elves have access to? It allows Half-Elves to choose Elven Race Character Traits, I think everyone can agree on that. Now, you're the only one arguing that this ruling means that Racial Traits are also included (though I know I mistakenly used the term when referring to Race Character Traits in one of my earlier posts, the context made it obvious what I was really talking about I believe). IF your concept of what this ruling means holds true, the most that a half-elf could get would be trading in Elven Immunities, Low-Light Vision, or Keen Senses for Darkvision, Dreamspeaker, Elemental Resistance, or Urbanite. An elf would be able to make the EXACT same trades for the EXACT same cost, AND has Elven Magic and Weapon Familiarity that they would be able to keep or trade for other Alternate Racial Traits if they wished. Considering Elven Magic and all the neat Alternate Racial Traits an elf could trade it in for, I'd have to argue that the amount of stuff that a half-elf gets from the Elf that makes the Elf fun and unique to be FAR less than your "97%"
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Thorri, you are referring to racial traits ... by that logic as a half-elf, I should be able to get my +2 to any modifier and then get a +2 to Intelligence because a +2 intelligence modifier is an elf racial trait ... or +4 to strength as it is an orc racial trait (it it was a half-orc) ... or a second +2 to anything from the human parent.
It doesn't work that way (and I had to call BS on a player about a year and a half ago who tried to pull that by taking the Adopted trait ... which allows you to pick a race trait for a race other than what your PC is ... and only from the Player Companion line at that, so it was a double nix).
As has been said before racial traits are not something that can be swapped out except by selecting an alternate racial trait. As half-elves and half-prcs do not share all racial traits with their parents' race, they would not be able to take alternate racial traits as there will be traits they don't have and can therefore not swap out.
To re-emphasize ... racial traits =/= race traits.
Plenty of space left on these boards to beat a dead horse.
Well its that Thorri does not seem to understand at all...
Well its that Thorri does not seem to understand at all...
I understand perfectly. I just disagree with you.
For instance, I think it's crazy game design to give a couple of races 5 favored class options for every class when all the others get 2-3. I don't think it would be a bad idea to give every race 5 favored class options. I don't think it would be a bad idea to give every race 2-3 favored class options. But giving a couple of races vastly more options here than the others is lame.
And I think it's totally unfair to give one "core" race every option except three that you've given to another "core" race, particularly when those three options are either average or weaknesses. (It's not nearly so bad that they gave half-elves almost every option humans have, so long as you reserve racial traits for humans, because the core human "racial traits" are really strong. The 2 racial traits that elves get and half elves do not are situational, certainly nice as far as they go, but don't begin to make up for half-elves having better stats and 3x as many racial choices.)
And it's really not going to break the game if you give half-elves access to "Elven Magic". "Elven Magic" is basically as powerful as a feat. You might as well give it to a race that will actually be played, instead of reserving it for a race that really has no raison d'etre any more. Just say half elves have "Elven Magic" as an alternate racial trait for "Multitalented". There. Done.
I guess it doesn't matter, because I removed Racial Archetype restrictions as a DM ages ago.
Yes, your Human can be a Stonelord Paladin if you have a good explanation to how he came to be one.
I'm just thrilled to be able to play a halforc barbarian with the superstition favored class option.