A group of mythic characters wants to fight a god. That happens in legends, so it does make sense that it might happen in Pathfinder. This brings up the question: are gods mythic?
Do they have mythic tiers?
Does divinity itself count as mythic?
This comes into play when mythic characters use abilities that are more powerful against non-mythic creatures.
Any thoughts?
The best way to answer this is separate it into three tiers
1. the core rule book tier where top of the line is Titans, spawn of rovagug like tarrasque and such
2. mythic, with top of the line Baba Yaga, demon lords, and i hear Cthulu.
3 beyond mythic, entities that are so powerful they can't be written up as opponents, like you guessed it Gods.
so short answer is no, long answer is, only if you want to take the time to come up with some stats:) i'm pretty sure the folks at Paizo will not be fleshing them out as something to fight.
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I would say that gods are considered to be mythic, even though as the rules stand right now they don't have any sort of stats.
To my way of thinking, there are (at least) three different "scales" of existence (I'm purposefully avoiding the use of "level" or "tier"). Normal, mythic and divine, in increasing levels of power. A tier 10 mythic character touches the very bottom of the divine scale (tier 10 is effectively a demigod). All demigods and gods equal or exceed the power of a tier 10 mythic character. Should rules for divinity ever be published by Paizo, I expect there will be a line in the rules that says something like "all divine characters are considered to be mythic creatures for the purpose of being affected by mythic path abilities, feats, spells, and magic items".
Should rules for divinity ever be published by Paizo, I expect there will be a line in the rules that says something like "all divine characters are considered to be mythic creatures for the purpose of being affected by mythic path abilities, feats, spells, and magic items".
This was my thought.
for me personally, one of the main selling points for switching from 3.5 to pathfinder was that gods are essentially above the fray. now will i stop playing if they stat out a god here or there? no, but i'm not going to use them either. if you want to fight a god? get bestiary 4 and go toe to toe with Pazuzu or Cthulu, they're a demon lord and Outer God respectively but they are on the same footing as a minor Demigod :)
and i am curious to see how fights against Cthulu end so feel free to share stories:)
Gods are beyond Mythic.
They have, purposefully, never have, and never will, be given stats.
This is a firm stance by Pathfinder.
and one i agree with whole heartedly!
Gods are beyond Mythic.
They have, purposefully, never have, and never will, be given stats.
This is a firm stance by Pathfinder.
To be quite honest, this was one of the things I liked most about the 2nd Edition AD&D Legends and Lore rules. You were given power limits for what gods could and couldn't do (like how much magic resistance they had), but absolutely nowhere in that book were ability scores or hit points or armour class for the actual gods themselves listed. The stats presented were for avatars. You were basically being told "if a god needs to manifest personally, here's some stats you can use. Sure, you can have the PCs meet a real god. At which point it's abilities are entirely story-driven. The GM decides."
Even with that, though, it was incredibly useful to have statistics for avatars.
My personal preference, should Paizo ever decide to implement rules for divinity, is to keep the same mystique. Allow avatars. Allow lesser manifestations. Don't ever give ability scores, AC, or hit points to the gods themselves.
Which brings me to my personally preferred means of handling direct interaction with gods, using currently established rules. Take the 3.0 Deities and Demigods book (with appropriate conversion, it's not too hard). The stats presented there for the gods are actually for "greater manifestations". Think of them like a "primary avatar". They're what a god uses to meet people. The god will typically only have one in existence at a time, and it will almost always be found in the god's realm on its home plane. They are not the god. The god itself is beyond the rules. Yes, you can meet the god, but it doesn't have ability scores, or hit points. It just is. The stats presented for avatars in the book are for "lesser manifestations", for when the god needs to do things outside its native plane. Defeating a greater manifestation is extremely difficult, but not impossible, and will almost always draw the ire of the god itself, which falls under the heading of "A Bad Idea".
Doing this allows the GM to keep gods as storytelling devices, rather than being (rightly or wrongly) "locked in" to using presented stats, while still allowing rules interaction with them.
I'm always a fan of, if you are on the gods home plane, the place the gods real essence never leaves, he simply wills you out of existence if he wants. No saving throw, no spell resistance. Just gone.
And frankly, thats how it should be.
Tier 10 is the height of mortal power, but may be only the first step into true immortal divine power. Gods are at the *very least* tier 10 in everything they need to be.
Still, tier 10 characters may have the power to be a genuine threat to deities. Like in legends, heroes have had many (mythic?) challenges before their final showdown with the god(s). Maybe with a few macguffins in the equipment list. But this varies from mythology to mythology.
Mortal heroes are already always going after threats bigger than they are. Mythic heroes take it to tier 11!
If you can find an old copy of The Primal Order (out of print, but maybe it's out there somewhere), that wonderful book explored the difference between mortals and gods in a way that was not specific to any system, defining godly powers way beyond what mortals can achieve but still playable, even capable of adding these powers to mortals (godlings, demigods, ascended, etc.).
The true beauty of the book is that it doesn't define gods as "mages who can throw bigger fireballs" or "fighters who can hit harder". It gives gods powers that are entirely different than what puny mortals can do, and entirely more awesome. It gives gods a reason for existing, a reason for having priests and temples and other holy things, a reason for granting spells (and a game mechanic for doing it). Makes gods truly godlike and entirely NOT mortal-like.
If you can find it, get it. It's the best 3PP book I've ever purchased (though maybe it's not for people who have no interest "running" gods in their game world, or maybe it's not for for people who think gods really are just better mortals).
Tier 10 is the height of mortal power, but may be only the first step into true immortal divine power. Gods are at the *very least* tier 10 in everything they need to be.
Still, tier 10 characters may have the power to be a genuine threat to deities. Like in legends, heroes have had many (mythic?) challenges before their final showdown with the god(s). Maybe with a few macguffins in the equipment list. But this varies from mythology to mythology.
Mortal heroes are already always going after threats bigger than they are. Mythic heroes take it to tier 11!
well since you can grab longevity at mythic tier one, you can actually be technically immortal (unless someone kills you, of course), and with a few other powers you can have your own followers, worshippers, domains, etc. to pretty much be a demigod/lesser god by tier 5-7 (if you were to choose no other powers).
as for slaying the gods? eh. i could see one maybe getting wounded by the absolute top-of-the-top hero if the god is cocky enough (remember, we've had at least one god in golarion canon bite it to something that wasn't divine--they took part of his powers and ascended afterward, but thats beside the point.), but then they'd snuff him instantly or death curse him for his audacity to strike at the divine, and cast him out to some unknowable plane.
makes for a great two-part adventure of his party tracking him down, and him trying to get back.
They are as above mythic as mythic is above you.
Arazni was a god and was killed by a mortal. The Whispering Tyrant battled Aroden and was not quickly defeated and it turns out that he wanted to be slain by Aroden.
"First rule of deicide : do not miss."
second rule of deicide: hope they're not omnicscient
Did the OP mention anything about Golarion? Then why are we using Golarion's assumptions?
Personally I'd say a lesser deity might even have less than ten mythic ranks or tiers. A greater deity that has a full five domains would be more powerful than a rank/tier ten creature, and might require defining what eleven or more ranks give you.
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SKR has a real good book on the power of the gods. In the book if I recall correctly gods have divine ranks an even Divine rank 1 has far greater power than Mythic rank 10. I do not know if Pazio has plans to use SKR's book as a basis for divine power. I have read in several posts that the Pazio staff has no plans on stating the gods. The Pazio staff is even loath to stat major NPC's from the Inner Sea.
At the moment, CR 30 is the highest they support. And while at the moment, they don't want to stat gods, they also said that they never say never. So, who knows what the future holds.
I'd suggest in the meantime to have the players find a ritual to bring a god away from their plane and "depower" them to CR 30, then have the players fight them. Or, look at Little Red Goblin's 3pp supplement about stating gods. Though I'm not sure how well it meshes with Mythic since I think it uses the Epic rules as a base.
Anything above CR 25 is Mythic. That's a rule in Mythic Adventures unless I'm losing my gourd. So, are the gods at least CR 25? If so, there's your answer.
Creative Director
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Demigods are certainly mythic... but full on deities, such as the core 20 deities, are not. They are BEYOND mythic.
An adventure where a group defies a deity and perhaps puts the deity down is certainly a mythic adventure and one that should significantly challenge level 20/tier 10 characters at the end... but the method of defeating the deity should involve dozens of adventures leading up to a final confrontation where you defeat lots of the deity's works and minions and all that... Basically, if a GM wants to run this plot, the GM needs to build the whole campaign with this goal in mind.
We have no current plans to actually ever provide stats for the deities themselves.
Nor do we have plans to publish an Adventure Path with a "kill a deity" plotline.
Kill a demigod though? That's a different story!
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Creative Director
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Arazni was a god and was killed by a mortal.Not quite, she was Aroden's herald, and didn't have deity status.
Arazni was and is classified as a demigod.
There are certainly tiers of power in that even—demon lords are more powerful demigods than beings like Arazni or mythic characters who grant spells.
If a Mythic Character (not even necessarily a PC) can grant spells, does that not technically make them a Demigod?
I'd be completely against gods being unassailable by the players, yet at the same time I don't think putting gods into a beastiary like Dieties & Demigods is a good thing either. Back in the day that book was taken too often for a Monster Manual 2, rather than a reference and background guide.
Mostly I look at it like what Raistlin did in the dragonlance Legends series. Run around on the god's home plane screaming your head off killing her minions(after a suitably epic journey just to get to that point), then lure her away from her point of power where she's vulnerable. Once there, spring the trap, whack the god, viola. Well, ok, maybe a little more complicated but you get the idea.
So, for my campaigns at least, deities are beyond mythic, most of the time. Until you catch them with their pants down around their legs, then they're no more mythic than anyone else, assuming you're prepared.
In my games:
Some gods are far above mythic
Some gods are mythic
Some gods are less than mythic(standard HD: racial+class)
Some gods are merely concepts, as hard and simple to worship or destroy as such would be.
And those don't even cover the entity known as "Ettem", the infinite level commoner.
Or many other sources of divine magic... But that's just how I like my gods in my world.
So my answer to your questions: Could be.
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Creative Director
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If a Mythic Character (not even necessarily a PC) can grant spells, does that not technically make them a Demigod?
Technically yes... but they're still not on the same footing as a true demigod like Nocticula or Barbatos or Charon.
We might need to come up with a new term. Previous editions of D&D used "quasideity" or "hero god" as names for gods who were not yet as powerful as demigods, for example.
Using those rules, I'd say that mythic characters who can grant spells would probably be classified as a hero god when they first take that power, then as a quasideity once they can grant four domains. Becoming a demigod requires a step beyond mythic in this setup.
for my own setting's gods--even though theyre statted and can be found/attacked--you cant exactly kill them, seeing as they're tied to the actual forces of the universe (so killing the sun god would snuff out the sun, which is bad news for everyone except vampires), and they come with the buckley rules of "whosoever kills this god assumes the identity and all responsibility of the title and power." (generally to keep the universe in balance), and overdeities' powers will simply consume you and possess your body and resume what they were doing as if nothing happened.
in mine, to actually permanently kill a god you'd need to kill it away from anything else (and by away i mean different planes of existence, and even then its rather tenuous, since it could seep through the planar barriers and into another in the same general area)--anything, living, dead, doesnt matter (although dead makes things WORSE, since say the sun god dies and possesses a corpse--now the sun is undead, and would no longer give off those harmful anti-undead rays anymore.). the energy will possess it and bam, new X god. so anyway, do that, and then wait a few millenia for the powers to dissipate into nothing while making sure nothing ever enters that plane or you have to star all over again.
its not impossible, merely extremely dangerous and impractical.
In the D&D campaign setting: Wrath of the immortals, the immortals are being explained. They are far above and beyond anything a mere mortal or even mythic, demigods is. Their statnumber seemed very mortal but weren't even close to the stats mortals are familiar with, as they will range from a starting 3d6 up to 100(i.e. +45 bonus) for the highest level immortals. Strength adjust weapon damage of an immortal as well as carrying capacity. Dexterity refers to armor class and attack bonus on ranged weapons. Intelligence refered to the number of plots an immortal can uphold and control. Wisdom refers to the number of targets its aura can attack simultaneously. Constitution does not influence hitpoints, but only refers to the number of round it takes before an immortal poison affects an immortal (mortal magic or poison do affect an immortal at all), allowing the immortal to cast neutralize poison. Charisma affects how an immortal affects NPC's, the number off personal retainers an immortal can have and the number of retainers actively enhancing each plot, the morale of the retainers and the effectiveness of the aura attacks of an immortal.
Because immortals derive their power from the amount of follower they have, they are always plotting to increase their power.
The setting stressed that immortals are no beefed up monster ready to be fought. The least of the gods is infinitively more powerful the the strongest mortal and could defeat any non-immortal without having to move by the mere power of their aura alone. The reason they don't is because of the immortal code that was created because the mortals worshipping immortals provide the immortals with strength and new immortals might rise from the ranks of mortals.
Avatars are mortal manifestation forms of a diety and not the diety itself. They are closely connected to the diety, but are not the diety itself, although they may be possessed by their creating diety.